Cheating - what's a dealbreaker for you and what could you forgive?

[tallielikesthesky]

Friend has just told me that 6 months ago she discovered her 'd'h had had some sort of 'almost affair' and it's shocked me how different our opinions on it are.

Apparently she found messages on his phone - OW lived in city her DH was travelling to a lot for work at the time and there were weeks worth of daily texts messages, talk about sex (likes etc, not sexting) , references to them meeting up, to ow being a good kisser and something about them sharing a bed but not having sex (OW had apparently broken it off saying she couldn't go any further than they'd gone with a married man but apologised to the wanker that he hadn't got what he wanted but she'd hoped he'd enjoyed spending the night with her).

Friend said she was upset but because she could tell from messages that they hadn't had sex and it was over she didn't really consider it an affair and had forgiven him. Apparently him performing oral sex on someone else or having full sex are the only dealbreakers for her.

I know it's easy to say things hypothetically but to me that's a proper affair and I just don't think I could forgive him. All the secrecy, kissing and sleeping in the same bed would be too much for me and would ruin any trust I had in him. I reckon I could forgive a drunken kiss with a stranger but nothing more.

Now I'm wondering which is more common. At what point would you be unable to forgive? Sexting? Kissing someone else? Sleeping in same bed? Receiving/giving oral sex? Full sex?

At what point do you think an emotional affair become unforgivable?

AnyFucker you asked a really good question about how our certainty about never forgiving a second infidelity reconciles with what might be perceived as sunk costs.

Being honest, if he'd been unfaithful again within the first couple of years when the pain was at its worst, I would have still ended the relationship but would have regretted the waste of those years. My rational self would have realised that had I walked, I would have been further along in a new life, it might not have been as hard and painful as staying had been and the dust would have settled.

If it happened now though, I'd be unable to to regard the last few years as sunk costs, because of the pleasure we've experienced and how much easier some quite difficult life challenges have been within the safe harbour of our relationship. I wouldn't trade the past few years for anything, so I could never view them as wasted time. Notwithstanding that, it would be a no-brainer for me to divorce if it happened again, but now there would be fewer regrets about my initial decision.

Our children have had the benefit of two parents who love eachother throughout the difficult teenage and young adult years and we believe their outcomes would have been different had we parted. There would be little to regret about that and no feeling that any costs had been sunk. Just the reverse really - it's more a feeling that it's been a wise investment in a range of appreciating assets. Not just in terms of our relationship or the children's outcomes, but as far as us as individuals are concerned. This experience really does stretch you as an individual and a lot of my investment has been in me, as my husband's has been on his own character. We are better people for this, I think.

Sexting? Kissing someone else? Sleeping in same bed? Receiving/giving oral sex? Full sex?

All unforgivable.

My DH doesn't even flirt with other women. I don't know what I would think if he did. I would not like it but I wouldn't end a marriage over it.

You make me think, fsg

I can see that fsg. I think dp and I know now what it would do to us which is why it is a deal breaker for both.

fsg I like your posts, you sound so sensible and so sorted. It is refreshing to come across someone like yourself on the relationships board. So often people are very extreme in one way or the other, and convinced that they are right. There is no such thing as right when it comes to relationships. Each one is different, and reflects the people in it. When I read Ledkr's posts I can absolutely understand why she kicked her DH out, I would have too. When I read yours I can see why you made it work. The men in question are poles apart in terms of what happened and how they moved on from it.

I married my 'soul mate'. That sounds trite I know. Before meeting him I never thought I'd marry, and dumped every boyfriend the second he said 'I love you'. I'm not proud of that, but it does demonstrate I am not the dependant type. It took two years for me to agree to date DH, and during those two years I learnt that the arrogant driven front is not who he really is. He's the kind of person who will drive for 6 hours after a 12 hour shift to see his granddad, just because...

But even with the solid foundation we had, which was based on interests, intellect, shared standards a well as love it all went wrong.... because we did not communicate. So many misunderstandings, such a waste of the years together. So, his affair wasn't just because he could and she was hot, it was because we were both unhappy, I was unhappy, he couldn't see an end to it and neither could I. We both wanted to change things but neither had the courage to sit down and thrash it out. So, he did what I'd always told him would be a deal breaker, 1. to end it, 2. because he was desperate for a family and didn't think it would happen with me, 3. because at some level he was trying to self destruct. Yes, he was selfish, yes he enjoyed it, and yes it was not an admirable thing to do. Did he love her, perhaps. Did he want a future with her, no. He has openly admitted that had we divorced he'd have probably stayed with her for a while, but then moved on and 'shagged about' for a year before trying to find a new life partner. Pretty low, but I confess I'd have probably done the same. It's human nature.

I'm glad we had a rocket to start us talking, but not glad at the form of that rocket. Our marriage may be stronger and happier than it has been in years, and we do now communicate in a way we never did before, but they will always be a tiny crack in the looking glass. A tiny flaw which means no second chances.

Yes communicating is key and investing time and effort in the 2 of you and who you are as people. Our ds is 19 now and without this foundation I think this can be a risky time in relationships Many of our friends going through this ATM

What an interesting thread.
It has also made me think but also when I read some if the posts from the amazing women on here my tummy hurts with I guess a rage and sadness of what these men you speak of so highly, have put you through.
Maybe I'm just too straight thinking but I think if a person cheats they absolutely know that in our culture that wil cause deep hurt and disruption to their family.
I'm also not sure that like the assumption that it was better for the children to have both parents together regardless.
There are plenty of posts on mn I've read from people who grew up with parents who stayed together after infidelity who found it difficult. In fact my own friend was in this situation and grew up despising her dad fur what he'd put her mum through and her mums apparent doormat status.( to a teen that's how it looked)
I wonder how much the children are affected by the period of therapy,healing, open discussion,forgiveness etc which a couple must go through in order to come out the other side.
I was certainly in a total mess immediately after I'd discovered ex's affair but was able to be calm and rational quickly after he had left and could concentrate on helping them through the split as my focus was on us and not healing my relationship.
Just a thought really. I feel a little defensive for us equally brave and strong women who ended their relationships and whose children are still settled and happy.

Ledkr - you made the right choice for you and your family. As did I. As did FSG. They were different choices, but they are right.

Our DHs were selfish cruel bastards, all of them, that goes without saying. I'm someone who in the past has been the type to cut people out of my life because they upset me, and ironically it was my DH who taught me to give people a chance. I've given him a chance and he has shown me through his actions that it was the right thing to do, for us both.

It hasn't made me a doormat though, and to be honest I think I was a bit of one before. He married a fiercely dependent successful woman and I turned myself into a bit of a miserable bored doormat. Isn't it ironic that through all the cr*p I've found me again!

What all this has also shown me is that I would be absolutely fine on my own, I moved on from him, and I was fine. I was actually looking forward to starting afresh and was quite excited about it. The thing about loving someone is you want them to be happy. I wanted him to be happy, and if that was without me I was ok with that. After the initial hurt and rejection I got my head round the fact that we'd both be fine, and probably still friends.

I like me more now, I'm how I was 13 years ago before we met. I like him more now - he's how he was too, with a little bit of added humility and knowledge that he isn't perfect after all. I think he needed that jolt.

My child is too young to be affected by any of this and I won't tell her. I will bring her up to know her own self worth, to be confident and to expect to be treated as an equal where ever she goes.

independent, not dependent!

Worcester would you advise your daughter that with the correct help and willingness to change an affair is not the end? My ds is of an age where he knows the effect of affairs (friends and family) not sure how i would advise him if it ever came up

Noddy I won't give her any generic advice on affairs, as I don't think there is a right or wrong way to react. I'd do what my parents have done for me, I'd support her, be there for her, let her make her own choices and decisions without rail-roading her with my opinions.

The best 'advice' I had wasn't advice as such and it came from a neighbour not a close friend. When I was in the first week after he told me and was very broken, she just gently asked 'why do you want to keep him?'. It woke me up, I couldn't think of a good reason at that time. He was cheating on me, so why? I moved out, discovered me, started the divorce, and started to enjoy life again.

When we reconciled it was from a neutral position. I don't think it is wise to hang on and desperately try to save a marriage. You need to know you are ok on your own before you can be sure you are ok together.

I hope she will never face what I have, but if she does I'll keep my counsel and just ask 'why'.

worcester was it before dd was born? Because chikdren can be affected by trauma even in utero.
Hopefully she wasn't but its something to bear in mind.
My dd was 8 months and I felt she became more Clingy and anxious even tho in the surface all was normal as ex was staying at the house during my working shifts which was no different to pre split.
She must have picked something up. Poor baby.

Your case was fairly good wasn't it? You'd already shown him you wouldn't tolerate his behaviour then reconciled afterwards.
Sounds much more of a recipe for success.

I agree worcester leaving and getting on with her life and then reconciling is a different thing imho

id forgive most things except falling in love or acting relationshippy with someone else.
im not that fussed about sex itself. id be more bothered by the emotional side of it. A one night stand wouldn't be a huge deal to me although id still rather it didnt happen.
id rather his reasons for not doing stuff like that were because he didnt want to, rather than any sort of consequences from me

Ledkr - yes, I was pregnant (but didn't know it). She's not been affected as far as I can see as she is a very mellow baby, full of smiles, giggles, and a great sleeper. I got lucky there! I tell people that her personality is life's way of evening things up for me . I'm so sorry your poor little baby had to live through it. It's not fair . I'm sure she'll forget, and with a strong mum like you will bounce back.

Ledkr - those who know me from this board know my views on staying together for the children's sake. Staying together for their sake is something I would never advocate and in many cases its more damaging for them. My decision to stay with my DH had nothing to our DC who are in their teens and will be leaving home in the near future anyway.

However I have to say that now that DH is a much less selfish person, I am glad to have him around for these turbulent teen years. I think with the old version of DH, I would have cracked under the strain.

Gosh yes! I have to say that previously my ex was fab with our teen boys when we were together.
I'm glad I have dh for the upcoming teen dd drama lama!
It's fascinating reading all these as it appears that we all had similar decisions to make indifferent circumstances.
Our marriage was dying anyway tbf but with dh it's still very fresh. Somehow if he cheated it would be harder to take and even harder to let go of him too.

Anyfucker - perfectly healthy, for us at least. We both know exactly where we stand and the system has worked for 13 years. If other people want to have more grey areas, that's up to them. The difference is that we have actually talked about what isn't acceptable and have agreed on what is appropriate and respectful behaviour. I think that's why it works, not because it's so absolute. People could have successful open relationships, as long as the boundaries and behaviours are defined and agreed.

I said it upthread but gonna repeat myself - this is a really thought provoking thread and it has definitely made me consider my views on fidelity and deal breakers so a very big thankyou to all the posters who have talked about their circumstances and the reasoning behind them

My last partner told me had cheated, ons, the circumstances around it meant I dropped him like a hot brick but it was a relatively short relationship of 4yrs. Reading on here has made me realise that I could be more understanding of those who have forgiven and redrawn the covenant of their relationship anew on the basis of shared reflection and communication.

As any relationship I would be entering now would have my baggage of experiencing the pain of cheating, I would be making clear my view of it as a deal breaker from the start the thing is of course I would need to be prepared to follow that through - and I can see now that that may not be as easy many years done the line with someone rather than only a few.

Interesting re children and discussing boundaries. I talk to my DS a lot about sex and relationships, infidelity hasn't been on the agenda as yet but it is going on there now.

As soon as I posted that bit about how beneficial staying together has been for the children, I realised it could convey a different message than intended. I'm so sorry if that made anyone feel defensive about their choices - I can understand why.

It wouldn't have even entered my head to stay together for the children. I knew from experience within my own family that this is in fact, a disastrous strategy.

I was financially independent and had we split, money wouldn't have been an issue. I knew we'd both co-parent and it wouldn't be a case of the children losing their father, or any of those terribly emotive statements people make in order to guilt people into staying in unhappy relationships.

What I wanted to convey was that in our case, we believe the children have had better outcomes because they've seen a very happy relationship modelled to them throughout their impressionable years and because we've been honest with them about what happened and why, they've emerged with more realism about relationships and what can sometimes go wrong even when couples love deeply.

Some of that would have been achievable had we split of course, but I'm pragmatic enough to realise there would have been less money in the initial stages financing two homes, aware of our personalities enough to know we'd have both found other people step-parenting very difficult personally (being realistic I think we'd have both formed new relationships eventually) and had we parted, the children would have had to experience both parents feeling devastated and bereaved in the initial stages.

We didn't tell our children straight away and followed the advice of our independent counsellors that this would be too much of a burden to share. We were lucky (?) that something else happened around that time that merited its own righteous grief and upset and it was easier to disguise. We told them the story much later on, when there was no threat to their security and when we felt they had the emotional intelligence to understand it and could learn some positives to take into their own adult lives. My view is that together or apart, they'd have experienced their parents being bewildered and upset, although we did our level best to minimise any of that while they were around.

Coming back to Noddy's question too about what message we'd give/have given the children, we've been quite anxious to know what message has been received by them. We learn this through our conversations with them about their friends' relationships and the advice they give those friends. They are far wiser than we were at their ages about other people's agendas in wanting to be 'friends', the effect of ego boosts and most of all, none of them have any delusions about what the eye can't see, the heart can't grieve over. They challenge that particular myth which seems as popular as ever with young people, very vigorously!

We're hoping this won't happen to them, in part because they are more aware of the truth of infidelity rather than the myths and they'll be able especially to see the links between a partner's default behaviour and what might come later. But if it did, we'd be in a much better position to ask some helpful questions if our advice was sought and if anything, I think unless a partner modelled exactly what their father did post-affair, they'd be far more uncompromising than most. But who knows really?

Like another poster, we've had some difficult life challenges in the past few years and the pre-affair model of my husband wouldn't have been anything like the supportive rock of a partner I've needed and had. To be fair, I think I've been more supportive to him too than I once would have been.

Are any of you worried that it would happen again especially if you came up against any stresses?
Or that you would be tempted to stray yourself should the situation ever arise?

Sacrebleu, it is critical though to do the post infidelity work, and many don't, or pay lip service to it.

No I honestly don't worry about that in the least. We both think that's less likely to happen now than before and that we're less likely to face that sort of relationship dilemma than couples or individuals who've never been through this.

Ledkr look at the myths that ordinary people post on Mumsnet to see how misguided people are about infidelity. How many posters advise women not to tell their husbands if they've cheated, on the premise that it would hurt them unnecessarily? Ordinary sane people often fail to understand that the hurt has already occurred. People in affairs convince themselves too that the affair has to be known about to actually hurt their partners and my husband was no different. It's a persistent but unfortunately widely believed myth that is supported by a societal discourse.