Cheating - what's a dealbreaker for you and what could you forgive?

[tallielikesthesky]

Friend has just told me that 6 months ago she discovered her 'd'h had had some sort of 'almost affair' and it's shocked me how different our opinions on it are.

Apparently she found messages on his phone - OW lived in city her DH was travelling to a lot for work at the time and there were weeks worth of daily texts messages, talk about sex (likes etc, not sexting) , references to them meeting up, to ow being a good kisser and something about them sharing a bed but not having sex (OW had apparently broken it off saying she couldn't go any further than they'd gone with a married man but apologised to the wanker that he hadn't got what he wanted but she'd hoped he'd enjoyed spending the night with her).

Friend said she was upset but because she could tell from messages that they hadn't had sex and it was over she didn't really consider it an affair and had forgiven him. Apparently him performing oral sex on someone else or having full sex are the only dealbreakers for her.

I know it's easy to say things hypothetically but to me that's a proper affair and I just don't think I could forgive him. All the secrecy, kissing and sleeping in the same bed would be too much for me and would ruin any trust I had in him. I reckon I could forgive a drunken kiss with a stranger but nothing more.

Now I'm wondering which is more common. At what point would you be unable to forgive? Sexting? Kissing someone else? Sleeping in same bed? Receiving/giving oral sex? Full sex?

At what point do you think an emotional affair become unforgivable?

I could forgive a one-night stand, or even a one-weekend stand, if it's a random one-off. I'd expect reciprocal tolerance - I guess I'm saying it's negotiable with me. I wouldn't begin to forgive lying about it, even by omission. Neither can I forgive love-struck moping and/or regular, intimate chats with ANOther. Paying for sex services is also off the agenda - anyone my age ought to be aware of the implications and, if they haven't got it by now, we're mismatched. I include lapdancers and overseas 'girlfriends' in that - I have dumped men after finding out they went on dodgy holidays.

I would pretty much not forgive or forget anything. Can't think of a situation that would be ok with me as dp doesn't drink so wouldn't have that excuse. This is not because of any sense of ownership though we are not married but because I don't fear being single as much as I would hate to be in a relationship with no trust. I could happily live alone

Cogito, I've been through what your friend's suffering - as so many of us have, sadly. After crazy amounts of therapy I finally got that the source of my agony was/is a fear of abandonment. Being 'abandoned' or losing someone's love (or, more likely, finding out I never had what I'd call love from them,) still does feel like total annihilation. But now I know it isn't.

LTB and I'm still here: in fact, it may well be time I noticed me and paid me some attention!

This is why I feel it's helpful to encourage confused partners to get some proper time for themselves. Did your friend, or was she too eager to forgive?

I think how your marriage has recovered is well and truly in the minority worsester.

Most people would rather keep quiet about their partner's affair if they genuinely plan to stay together.

Agree with the second point, but it therefore contradicts the first.

No-one knows how many marriages recover from stuff like this, because a lot of people don't talk about it.

On an internet forum where no-one's tales of kick-ass heroism can be authenticated, the safest thing to take from it is that no-one really knows what they'd do until it's happened to them. And to be a bit sceptical about what others say they did if you weren't around to see it.

chumlady . com.

'The Unlikelihood of Immediate Remorse' says it all.

It is THIS which for me is the deal breaker.

The Unlikelihood of Immediate Remorse
by CHUMP LADY on MAY 22, 2013
There?s an article over at HuffPo today on how a cheater should tell their spouse they?ve been having an affair. There?s some discussion on tell versus don?t tell. (I?m not going there ? duh, TELL. Yes. Of course.) But what interested me about the interview with Dr. Scott Haltzmann is his peculiar warning that cheaters might ?break down in sympathy.? Otherwise, I thought his advice on the whole was good ? be honest, expect much drama (short of physical violence), express remorse, commit fully to the marriage, and be immediately transparent.

And then I thought?. yes and no one does this.

Not one single cheater I have ever heard of in my years of reading on infidelity boards, or heard about here, or known in real life. Not one single cheating person has behaved that way. And certainly not right out of the starting gate.

I mean, I don?t want to rule them out. I want to believe they exist with the other unicorns in their fairy forest of ?post-infidelity marital bliss.? (Read the article for that nugget.) I?ve just never seen one.

What I have seen, after the discovery of an affair ? even after it is confessed (versus stumbled on to) ? is denial, lying, blameshifting (you drove me to it), minimizing (it was only once), and other sorts of mindfuckery, paramount of which is controlling the narrative. They dribble out the ?truth.? They omit. They obfuscate. I?ve never known a single one to say ?Tell you about that time I hired a hooker in Phoenix? Oh sure! Her name was Mandi and she came highly recommended on flooziesonthefly.com for discerning business travelers. It was a discreet encounter for $399.99 and included?.?

Yeah. No. That never happens.

I?ll tell you what else never happens ? they don?t ?break down in sympathy.?

Break down? Yes. That happens a lot. Do we project sympathy on them? Oh sure. Mine said he was sorry all the time. But when they lose their shit, it?s for THEMSELVES. Oh fuck! I?ve been found out! People might think horribly of me. My chump might divorce me! They will take away my beautiful cake! I need to control this outcome! We assume this freak out is about us, the chumps ? it?s not.

Cheating is a narcissistic act, so to assume that upon discovery the cheater is going to lead with humility? That?s nuts. Cheaters disrespect chumps. They don?t prostrate themselves before their betrayed spouses. Cheating is about gaining advantage, getting more kibbles. Why would a cheater want to lose the upper hand, when not forced? To cheat, especially over a period of any duration, you have to be really good at maintaining a double life ? at lying with a really straight face. People with that skill set tend not to possess qualities like shame and deference.

But we sure wish they did. I think it?s very difficult for chumps, especially in the early days post DDay, to discern what they want to see, from what they are actually seeing.

If you want to reconcile, I think what you should take from that interview is the unicorn blueprint. To have a marriage to save, these things must happen. And then watch and see if they happen, and how quickly, and what must be threatened.

Sometimes I feel that people commenting on how they would react to a betrayal by their spouse when they have never had to, is a bit like the childless telling you how they would rear their children. You know the lines we all trotted out - never have them in the bed, not give treats to keep them quiet, never raise our voice... I roll my eyes at my SIL, and can't wait until she has her first . How can you possibly know unless you've been there. You can't. We are all righteous in our indignation about things provided they remain hypothetical.

However, it does entirely depend on the nature of the affair, and the true feeling of the couple involved. Yes, I agree my situation is not the norm, and no it isn't easy all of the time. Of course I have dark days, and of course I am a little bit broken inside. However, a year on I can safely say it probably saved our marriage. We'd have just drifted and split had there not been something massive to make us wake up and remember why we were together in the first place.

I have been cheated on and stayed which is why I know I would never go there again! I lasted a year i think and a round the world trip to try and soften the blow and then I walked. It was nothing to do with him in the end but I just couldn't respect myself staying with someone who didn't have the same regard for me and was prepared to risk it for a bit on the side

Yes, I agree my situation is not the norm

How do you know that though? Maybe it is but we just don't know about it.

When it comes to private behaviour that many people don't talk about, it's not possible to know what is normative.

FWIW Worcester, your story is my norm, if the couples I know are anything to go on.

But if you don't know any couples who've stayed together happily, or you only know ones who haven't, you maybe have a different 'norm'.

Even this site has a different 'norm' to before.

There used to be loads of posters who'd rebuilt their relationships after affairs and were kind enough to help others in the same boat.

Now there aren't as many of those good souls posting, although I recognise a few names.

Maybe people are put off posting because there's a vocal minority who infer that women are stupid and insecure for trying to forgive, or who think that their stories apply to everyone else, regardless of the individual circumstances?

If this happened to me, I'm not sure I'd post here now, specially if I was feeling like crap anyway.

One size is never going to fit all because every person and every relationship is different.

I think it's a valid point to say you just don't know how you'll react until you're in that situation. I know that there have been various points in my life where I've reacted differently to the way I thought I would have done. These days, however, that's far less the case.

I think it comes down to self-knowledge more than anything. The person who is hardest to live with is yourself. IF you can face yourself and feel proud of the way you've dealt with a curveball, you'll cope fine. FOr some people that's about forgiveness. For others it's about respect. There are many more in-between. The trick is knowing which one you fall into and whether or not your 'partner' is compatible with that.

Think the couples who are happy after something like this are the ones where there's been forgiveness and respect (including self-respect), so don't see these as independent entitities, but otherwise think you're right Dahlen.

I can also see that if the one who's messed up doesn't end the other relationship or isn't prepared to do the difficult stuff of looking at themselves, it's better for someone's self-respect to walk.

But some people fuck up, really regret it and are prepared to make amends, including mending themselves.

But we don't hear as much about them, because the outside world is none the wiser if they don't tell people about it.

Leavenheath I was responding to Cogito when I mentioned norm. I think you may be right. It seems to me that those who survive it are less vociferous than those who don't. Perhaps we are less bitter and have less need to vent, or maybe we just want to move on and not let it define us. I don't know, but I have noticed that many women are scathing and at times really quite insulting to those of us who make the choice I did. I was so upset by some of the responses I had on here when I posted at the time I name changed.

What anyone will or won't forgive is very personal, but I stand by my assertion that no one can set parameters until the situation is real, and all the variables are taken into consideration.

I don't believe anyone can have a "one-off" shag or snog and still have the respect for their partner that they deserve.
. How can you be intimate with a stranger, then look your partner in the eye and tell them you love them? Maybe it's just me but I've been cheated on so many times, I couldn't forgive anything.
If I did find someone now I'd make that totally clear from the outset - you're perfectly entitled to end this whenever you like, but don't make me look a twat.

I feel sorry for her, she wants to believe it'll be ok but basically the line has been crossed and my ex stated that was why the 2nd OW was so much easier to do in his mind.
Why take the chance, I'd just be getting rid personally.

I couldn't forgive a drunken snog. And I have been through it. So no I couldn't forgive in your friends case, at all.

Well, I have been cheated on. Never been married but have been in long term relationships.

It has taken me until this year to "get" fidelity in full.

In the past I have made excuses for transgressions. I have "forgiven" a full on affair and then was dumped for my troubles (but he'd like to come back now - ha bloody ha); I have ignored clear signs of cheating because of my lack of self esteem, etc, etc. I have watched and lied to myself. I have also felt unloved and unwanted and have responded to attentions from others.

Now, though, I can see it for what it is - selfish, thoughtless, heartless and bloody rude. I finally get how/why people are loyal and do not shag around outside of open relationships. If you truly love and respect someone, why on earth would you do anything to hurt them that much? And, if you don't truly love and respect someone why would you be with them?

I may be like a reformed smoker on this but why, FFS, would anyone want to be with someone who treats them with such disdain?

Unless it happens you don't know what you can forgive or how you would react , not every situation is black and white .

Worcestershire Sauce I would have liked to be you, and I really tried.

The problem for me is that I was a blindsided - I didn't KNOW our marriage was in such deep trouble, because when I tried to address problems, he refused to - so I sucked it up and went along hoping that 'one day' 'with my love' he would 'get to see' ...

The other wound was that when he had Miss Shiny he devalued and discarded me utterly, and invested all his energy in her. Watching the person you love pining for someone else [although I didn't know that] whilst on a family holiday was killing.

When I eventually woke up from my shock/denail and found the affair, there was another blow: how long it had been going on for, and where it was conducted (in my house, in my bed).

He showed his ruthlessness here too: made an instant decision, and dumped her like a sack of garbage.

Although he chose to come back and said he 'wanted me', he then controlled the information and I knew I wasn't dealing with the openness I required.. So from 'meaning nothing' he eventually said he 'was very fond of her'. That took nearly two years - time confirming I couldn't trust or be vulnerable with him.

After two years of my bleating and spinning the therapist eventually lost patience w me and told me he was a narcissist and would never change for me. He would never show the remorse and introspection required to heal this and that he was not capable.

So WS all the best. Your H clearly showed something towards you that shows you have his heart, and I do agree that in time OW becomes what she really is: irrelevant, and a symbol of his coping skills.

I wish you all the best.

Wow your friend has forgiven him so easily does she really think nothing like this will happen again, if the OW didn't stop him he would of slept with her.

If I found flirty texts then I think that would ruin all trust and if he had planned to meet with another women then I'd be done, it's the intention. My parents had a bad marriage and I saw my mum suffer alot because she didn't trust my dad an it caused her alot of mental problems and there is no way I would ever put myself in that situation. For me once the trust has gone then its over and no going back but I realise I might be abit OTT

You end up disliking yourself for compromising your integrity

As it happens, based on what the OP has said about her friend's crappy situation, I think the friend would be mad to sweep it under the carpet.

But on the more general point it amazes me how some women will put up with all sorts of other crap in a man, but they draw the line at cheating. Must be a personal ego thing, I should think.

Sexual fidelity isn't the only measurement of respect or love, but it does seem to be given disproportionate weight in the decisions some people make about relationships and I find that really perplexing.

I also think those with very hard hypothetical lines are more likely to turn a blind eye and to train themselves not to be more questioning and observant in case they have to follow through with their threats, so they are possibly more likely to put up with crap behaviour such as porn, strip clubs or generalised disrespect because they don't want to think too deeply about what that might mean.

It comes back to what I was saying earlier. This is private behaviour that not many people talk about, so for every couple who are keeping schtum about an affair they've dealt with, there are probably loads more people who've been cheated on, but don't 'know' it (at least cognitively) and would rather not know because then they'd have to disrupt the life they want to keep.

I wouldn't put up with many other crappy things nor would my dp.