Cheating - what's a dealbreaker for you and what could you forgive?

[tallielikesthesky]

Friend has just told me that 6 months ago she discovered her 'd'h had had some sort of 'almost affair' and it's shocked me how different our opinions on it are.

Apparently she found messages on his phone - OW lived in city her DH was travelling to a lot for work at the time and there were weeks worth of daily texts messages, talk about sex (likes etc, not sexting) , references to them meeting up, to ow being a good kisser and something about them sharing a bed but not having sex (OW had apparently broken it off saying she couldn't go any further than they'd gone with a married man but apologised to the wanker that he hadn't got what he wanted but she'd hoped he'd enjoyed spending the night with her).

Friend said she was upset but because she could tell from messages that they hadn't had sex and it was over she didn't really consider it an affair and had forgiven him. Apparently him performing oral sex on someone else or having full sex are the only dealbreakers for her.

I know it's easy to say things hypothetically but to me that's a proper affair and I just don't think I could forgive him. All the secrecy, kissing and sleeping in the same bed would be too much for me and would ruin any trust I had in him. I reckon I could forgive a drunken kiss with a stranger but nothing more.

Now I'm wondering which is more common. At what point would you be unable to forgive? Sexting? Kissing someone else? Sleeping in same bed? Receiving/giving oral sex? Full sex?

At what point do you think an emotional affair become unforgivable?

I have always admired family because what her husband did was what I longed for my H to do. I would have forgiven him had he taken a long hard look at himself.

As my IC said 'do you realise that his affair is the final unacceptably hurtful PART OF A PATTERN?

In other words, his selfishness. My H wanted to work it all out, - until he found out how hard he was going to have to work at his issues, and how much reassurance I was going to need and how much of my rage he was going to have to suck up (his affair was horrible, 18 months long, conducted in my house).

Then came the minimising and withholding of information and he carried on being as selfish as before.

Worcestershire, what did you H do that was different?

I know I could not forgive an affair or even a drunken kiss.

It's not that I wouldn't want to forgive, I simply couldn't. I am a very obsessive person, I am also insecure and have trust issues. It would eat me alive and I know it is something I could never get over.

I know many people who have worked through an affair and I admired them greatly, but for me, I would walk around for years obsessing about it.

This loss of "blind trust" is interesting. I have never blindly trusted anyone, I don't even 100% trust myself.

I agree that, as sad it it is, losing "blind trust" is not such a loss. What happens though, if you never had it in the first place, or are in a position where you had it knocked out of you? Is this where the "if he ever did it again I would be immediately out of there" comes in ?

How does that reconcile with the idea of sunk costs ? Meaning if you have moved heaven and earth to forgive and move on, what would hold you back from forgiving again in the same situation ?

< no criticism, btw >

I agree AF I don't blind trust either but wonder if you have forgiven and moved on once your whole view of where fidelity ranks on dealbreakers somehow shifts and other things become more important to you.Also not a criticism genuinely interested

This is very interesting. Thanks to all the posters who've shared and discussed so thoughtfully.

AF for me, I was determined to have a decent relationship if I was prepared to stay.

I have it now. So I am getting pretty much what I wanted, and without uprooting myself and the kids.

I don't think I had it before the affair.

I am staying also because I trust myself that he is unlikely to do it again. But if he does, it was all a myth and lots of bullshit. And I'm not going through that pain once more. It would mean that he didn't really learn anything, about himself, and that he was willing to risk causing me that pain again, in the full knowledge of the repercussions.

But even then, if he does do, I will have had a good few extra years. And a fair experience of being treated in life with consideration.

If I end up spirit because he does it again, life goes on. People say on here that they need to leave to give them time to find someone else, or they think that.

Well you can be alone, or you can meet someone else at 50, 60, or later.

Split

The key thing is to get the relationship you want anyway, regardless of the risk of infidelity.

I accepted heaps of selfish shit before his infidelity which I would never, ever accept now. I have upped my standards.

I think my blind trust was due to growing up with parents and family who never cheated (to my knowledge) - no one got divorced and everyone seemed happy in their marriages. Having been with DH for over 20 years, I became complacent and also I bought into the affair prevention myth - a happy marriage and being a good wife do not prevent your husband from straying.

I know I would be out of there if he did it again because 1) after all we have been through I will then realise he definitely hasn't learned his lesson and never will 2) I can't go through it again. Life is far too short.

Noddy -what other things could be more important to me than my own sanity?

Nothing. I am talking about within a relationship really. I left because fidelity was a deal breaker to me it couldn't be overcome. Other things that would be for others might not be for me iygwim. I just wondered if it kind of moved down the ranking as it were.

I have been debating whether to post on this thread but then thought sod it I can handle the shocked faces.

My own view is that I can handle pretty much everything except a full-blown "love affair". Most people on this thread seem to attach a huge amount of importance to sexual fidelity which I don't have. My dh and I are together because we want to be together, are happy and love each other and the kids. I wouldn't be thrilled if he announced that he had slept with someone else but I wouldn't consider leaving him for that although I do have other deal breakers.

I know my views are outside the cultural norms for this country but my dh is French and I have lived there. There is not such importance placed on sexual fidelity as the be all and end all of things there.

Thats what I was asking Does sexual fidelity not have the same deal breaker status once you have survived it and are still happy and in a good relationship?

I kind if think blind trust is over rated tbh.
I've known some couples over the years in which one cheats regularly (the man in both cases) in both examples there are a lot of lads nights out/stags involving overnight stays which makes it very easy for it to happen.
In both cases the wives are clueless and think they have great marriages although from time to time some bit of evidence is staring them in the face but they either don't notice or don't want to.

It depends on the person,what they did,who they did it with and why.

I imagine I could forgive if all the above were explained and were things I felt I could live with/the relationship was worth the effort of moving past it.

I think if it happened again after he saw the amount of pain I was in the last time and how it affected us and how tremendously difficult it was to work through then it would be over as I definitely wouldn't know him anymore and it would be confirmed.

50 I'd like to think a decent partner would already be aware of the terrible pain they would cause by cheating without a trial run.

wellwobbly - you asked what my DH did that was different. In answer, everything.

To start with he opened up to me and talked, properly, shared everything in a way he never had before. We both did. There were so many misconceptions and misunderstandings on both sides. It was tragic really, and ironic that two people who really had married for love had drifted so far apart.

Then he took a good long hard look at himself, as did I. I'm not blameless in this. Our marriage had fallen apart at the seams, and I had played my part in that. We've both become better more considered people not just to each other but in general as a result.

Finally he started to treat me with kindness and respect, to put me first above work, his family his friends. I was initially adamant that I wanted a divorce, and he accepted that, but wouldn't even get a lawyer. He would have given me anything I wanted, made it clear he never wanted me to be financially hard up, that he'd support me for life, that he wanted me to be happy. It was so sad, I had never felt so loved or cared for, but at the same time we were divorcing.

Now... now we are finally happy, and together, and we really do genuinely care for each other. He is deeply ashamed. He knows he can be arrogant, and selfish, but he shocked himself as he never realised he could be an utter bastard. He hasn't expected me to blindly trust him, and does everything he can to help me with that. If he has to travel for work I am invited, if he has to work late he tells me first, and is prepared to just walk out and come home for me. I have the password to his phone (I've never checked it, and never will) and he leaves it on the side when he is at home. He asks me what else he needs to do.

I too have changed, a lot, for the better.

If he hadn't done all of this I wouldn't be here today, I'd have continued with the divorce and moved on with my life. I never hated him or his OW, and I like to think that at some level we could have remained friends.

I've never forgiven a cheater and I never will. 'Lie to me once, shame on you but lie to me twice, shame on me'.

I agree ledkr. Isn't a serious relationship with kids etc more or less based on that?

I think what family said up thread is totally true.
I have been in a position where selfish behaviour has allowed someone to walk over me. I have moaned about it and nagged but ultimately the behaviour continued.
Finally on the brink of a split, I found inner strength and laid down firm boundaries which my oh agreed to wholeheartedly. He also saw for the first time how utterly wrong his behaviour had been. He felt ashamed and vowed to treat me how I demanded and deserved to be treated.

This in turn changed the relationship, making us both far more considerate. Not making decisions without first running it by the other. Putting each other first which was what I wanted all along. I'm no longer accepting coming second to anybody or anything, full stop.

Does sexual fidelity not have the same deal breaker status once you have survived it and are still happy and in a good relationship?

Its even more of a deal breaker - it was one of the hardest things I've ever had to go through and I've suffered bereavements. We are now happy but for a long time, I didn't experience any joy. Having seen how devastated I was, for my DH to consider doing it again, he would have to be a particularly cruel bastard.

Ditto what madabout just said. If it happened again I'd divorce him. I'd be one the phone to my lawyer within 5 minutes of finding out.

Couldn't forgive any level of cheating; emotional or physical. No drunken snogs. No looking at porn (for so many reasons). No flirty texting. No meeting up with an ex for a friendly chat. Nope, nope, nope.

Sounds harsh, but he was the one who asked for fidelity and seriousness at the start of the relationship, and it was him who defined what this meant to him. He defined and created these expectations, and I have been utterly and completely faithful to him since agreeing to his terms, and he knows it, and has never had any reason to question my behaviour or intentions with any other party.

So, if he broke his own terms, that would be it. No questions, no second chances, his bags would be packed and he would be sent on his way. Harsh, but given his strong stance and his absolutist view towards the way I conduct myself (and my willingness to adhere to this, despite fidelity not having been my strong point in previous relationships) anything less than perfect on his part would be too devastating to forgive.

Never , that level of "perfection" required in a partner sounds unhealthy to me

It's not so much the things you view as a deal breaker as I agree with some of them, but the way you put each other on a pedestal.

It's a very long way to fall

Fidelity is an absolute priority for us. It has more significance than before, not less, because of this experience. When we talk about it now at home, we recognise that we actually trust eachother far more now than we did before. Because if either of us were to be unfaithful now, we'd be doing it in full cognisance of what it means and the effect it would have on us as individuals and our relationship. This is partly why a breach on either side would not be forgiven now, but the main reason would be as others have said - to be unfaithful now would be to knowingly inflict pain.

I understand Ledkr's point about why anyone would need a trial run to realise these lessons, but this is linked to the blind trust we've been discussing so refectively on the thread. We had a blind trust in eachother, but one of my husband's fatal flaws was that he had a blind trust in himself. Because we'd had a really good relationship throughout our marriage, he'd had no fears about his ability to be faithful. So the warning bells and whistles failed to sound as loudly as they should have when he started getting addicted to the attentions of the OW and the ego boosts and flattery she supplied. The timing was also disastrous, when he was a particularly low point professionally and was feeling rather beaten up by his industry and his stressful, disliked job.

Conversely I was more self-aware than him about the seductive quality of ego boosts and flattering admirers, knew my weak spots and had managed to avert problems along the way. But I never discussed my strategies in an especially serious way with him before and our discussions about people hitting on either of us were more humorous than reflective. We were both naive enough to think that as long as everything was going well with us, we'd be unassailable.

It was easier for us I think than it must be for some couples who'd had a problematical relationship pre-affair, not to fall into the trap of believing that the even better relationship we built was going to be an effective barrier to repeat infidelity. We'd had a strong relationship and had always made it a high priority (dates and weekends away) and yet this had still happened. So it was easier for us to determine the real cause and to see the patterns of behaviour that had allowed it. Whereas before I think we were both unconsciously faithful, now it is conscious behaviour.

Neither of us could now ever claim we didn't know the warning signs or the consequences, so the expectations are even higher and the trust much greater.