am I being assertive or unreasonable

[skatingonice]

After a tough couple of years have decided to make ago of my relationship (of 12 years) but realised for my sanity I needed to be more assertive with what I want from the relationship.
There have been positive changes with house work (he can do some without being asked!) And a few other things too.

The sticking point is now sex. The has been a bit of a drout whist things were settling down but the last few times we have started we always stop as I want him to spend some time caressing me and turning me on, without just grabbing my breasts or putting his hand between my legs... Not saying he can't do these or I don't like them, just don't want him to start there. I have spoken to him, explained this, but he doesn't seem to get it, the other night I tried moving his hand on to my stomach (which I have said I like been stroked), another time I asked him to kiss my neck.... These are met with a blunt end to proceedings... He says I'm been unreasonable, those things don't turn him on so he shouldn't have to do them. I should just be turned on or be happy with where/how he wants to touch me. If I say please can you do x, the reply will be "well what are you going to do to turn me on? " but he is obviously already more turned on then me...He says I can only ask for things that are mutually enjoyable (I pointed out sex with both of us turned on would be mutually enjoyable)

I think he is obviously turned on enough for PIV sex from much less then I am. Is it unreasonable for me to expect him to spend some time getting me turned on too?)

No I haven't started it. I mean to but then I decide is all in my head again and there is no actual problem. That's the point of starring it isn't it.

As soon as he is nice, I want that so much, I let everything else drop. Today he is being nice.

Wait a minute, OP. Just stop. You're hurtling along a path which is all about him, him, him.

Stop for a moment and just "be". You're spending too much brain effort and giving too much head space to what "he wants".

Right. Now. Do you think that you can go for the rest of your life, the next 40 years or so, thinking that you are in the wrong for asking your partner to kiss your neck? Seriously?

another time I asked him to kiss my neck.... These are met with a blunt end to proceedings... He says I'm been unreasonable, those things don't turn him on so he shouldn't have to do them. I should just be turned on or be happy with where/how he wants to touch me.

That smacks of total selfishness on his part.

You are not causing this. Like you say, you're now looking at the relationship differently, but that doesn't mean that you're causing his insecurity.

(Sorry if the thread has moved on somewhat, but I left this post onscreen then went off for lunch).

Peppered through this thread are comments from you like and if I've done something that's made him unhappy it's natural to try to improve to avoid the situation next time and first reaction is I feel really bad, feel sorry for him having to constantly put up with me not being good enough. Wonder how I can try harder.

It seems you constantly try to please him, to do what he wants, to act as he pleases. He told you that you weren't happy enough at being home from your trip - did he tell you exactly what reaction/words he expected from you. Did you try to remember to do that next time. Or was he just trying to bring you back to heel after your few days of freedom, and chose to do it through unkind words and creating a bad atmosphere? Putting you on edge, making you anxious.

You will never and can never be good enough for him, because what he wants doesn't exist.

I just hadn't behaved "like a normal partner would do after being away"....

Define 'normal'. And this period of 'being away' .. is he referring to the time when you split up? It all sounds like he expects you to be pathetically grateful that you're allowed to be back in his presence. I don't know how you can keep listening to this bullshit without stoving his head in with a steam iron quite honestly.

No, I've been at for 5 days with friends.

*away

So by 'normal' are we really talking 'sex'?

So he is the arbitrator of "normal"ness then? (God help us all! :o Couldn't resist.)

Write the diary. No easier way to see clearly IF something is going wrong or if really, on reflection and a little distance from each event, there is nothing wrong.

Just don't think I was happy enough to see him? I should have been more happy, more enthusiastic about being back. I had a great time away, was in a good, but chilled out mood, I was happy to be home, but it was late and I was tired so maybe it didn't come across? . We ate together, discussed what I had been up to and what he had done over the weekend. I said I had missed him and it was nice to be back, I stayed up later then I normally would so we could have some time together, I sat next to him on the sofa, was stroking his arm and laid against him whilst he was on laptop so want ignoring or anything.

When I said I was going to bed, I asked if he was coming, he said he was, I gave him a kiss and said I would see him in a minute. Would have instigated sex if he had come up and not stated on, "what's wrong with you" "you don't seem happy to be home" etc

Sounds a lovely evening to me. Don't know what his problem is.

OP he's totally got you dancing to his tune hasn't he! You're worrying now that you weren't 'normal' enough!

From what he's putting you through I'd say your reaction was totally normal. He's telling you how to think fgs.

Stop worrying about upsetting him, he's more than happy to upset you.

So he deliberately turned what was and what could have been a nice relaxing evening into an argument? Do you see why that's manipulative? Instead of everything remaining calm and happy, by him creating this nasty atmosphere you are instantly on the back foot, worried, alert, wondering what you did or said wrong.... and snap goes the trap and there you are ready to change something about yourself in order to restore the equilibrium.

Please tell me you see that's a deliberate engineering of a situation to make him feel good & you feel bad.... 'predatory self-esteem'.

Surely he would have felt good by continuing the nice evening? What did he have gain from saying what he did?

Just think that I must have behaved in a way that made him feel bad enough to have to say something.

Yeah I'm on the back foot today. Regular text and phone calls to show I'm okay and happy to be back. - just answered my own question didn't I? That's what he got out of it. ????

He always says I'm selfish and only ever think about what I want and how things feel to me so, apparently I never consider how my behaviour effects him. This line is repeated in many circumstances. But what if I am like that?

Yes you answered your own question. He feels good by making you feel bad. All bullies do this. It's how they stay in control.

What do you mean 'what if I am like that'? Like what? How did your behaviour affect him exactly? What specifically in that scene you describe of having dinner together, chatting, staying up late etc would affect someone so negatively as to have them challenging you about being happy at home? Answer.... bugger all.

Probably like every other example you can think of, it was a completely contrived argument whistled out of thin air designed to get the grovelling texts and phone-calls coming. Ker-ching...

I

What did he get out of it? Total control of you that's what and an underlining of that fact that he's the boss.

Skating, this is exactly the same as him telling you you are being in bad form when you are not. Can you see that?

It puts you on the back foot, having to defend yourself and insist that yes, you really are please to see him and you missed him.

He is punishing you for being away by being like a sulky child.

Good grief, he sounds like very hard work.

Sometimes I can see it, other times I think he must be right, I am hard work, unfair, unreasonable, whatever...

I don't know who's right, suppose that's why I'm checking here.

He'll do some thing and I'll think he is out of order, but then he'll do something nice and I feel bad thinking there was a problem as things can't be that bad after all.

This is a cycle. This cycle seems to be really frequent at the moment, it feels constant this year. I'm exhausted.

If you're exhausted chances are you're finding your environment very stressful. If you were hard work, unreasonable, unfair etc you would probably be anything but stressed because you'd be in the driving seat and therefore quite happy. It is far more stressful to be the victim and this 'cycle' you describe is such a commonly used stress-inducing, power-grabbing tactic for emotional bullies that it's almost a cliché.

I call it 'good cop, bad cop'... the bad cop stamps and shouts, intimidating the suspect and then the good cop turns up all smiles with a nice cup of tea and says 'sign the confession and I'll keep bad cop away'. Whether the behaviour is horrible or nice, it's all designed to control.

I'm not surprised you're exhausted. Treading on eggshells, hoping the 'nice' periods last, or come soon. Dancing to his tune (although never quite enough for him).

Out of curiousity, when you got back from your trip away, was he jumping through hoops out of sheer joy at seeing you? I don't think it would have mattered what mood or frame of mind you were in at that point, how ecstatic you were to see him. He just wanted to slap you down and get you back under control again.

Cog posted this on another thread. I thought it was very insightful and made me think of you.

are you dating an abuser

New to this thread but the main reason he engineered the argument at the end of your first evening home was because he didn't want to have sex with you. But instead of being open and transparent about that, he created an argument out of nowhere based on an entirely fictitious grievance.

This is without any doubt an abusive relationship.

I'm also new to your thread but reading the post about how your husband reacted on your return gave me the shivers.
Have you ever heard the expression slowly, slowly catch the monkey? This thread reminds me of that. It seems to me that he is slowly but surely eroding your confidence, not just in yourself but in your own judgement. He's also conditioning you into not having a social life of your own, e.g. by starting an argument before you left and making out you're not happy to be back when you get home. By doing this over time you'll likely find that you go out less as it's easier to stay at home than face the arguments beforehand and the walking on eggshells when you get back.
Don't be surprised if things escalate the next time you do something he disapproves of.

Thanks all. Have taken every thing on board and will have a good think. It's a lot to face up to of what you are saying is right. The link (Thanks Beryl) did have some matches but not others (I know someone wouldn't match everything).

I would still like to believe there is another explanation and I am just expecting to much but the more everyone else says not, the less likely that is looking.

I'm calm now yesterday was a good day. But I know it won't be forever, but I can help but hope this time it will be. This sounds deluded even to me, there is this voice in the back of my head going, you are acting like an idiot... I'm losing patients with myself, I know it's frustrating for people watching someone who can't accept what is obvious to everyone else.... But there is another voice in my head going what if I'm wrong, what if this is normal and I trade it in over nothing. I really would miss him, and all the good times we have, this is all I've known my whole adult life.

OP why was Wednesday a good day? Because he didn't have a go at you? Stop letting him dictate if it's a good day or a bad day.

Do you really want this for the rest of your life?