am I being assertive or unreasonable

[skatingonice]

After a tough couple of years have decided to make ago of my relationship (of 12 years) but realised for my sanity I needed to be more assertive with what I want from the relationship.
There have been positive changes with house work (he can do some without being asked!) And a few other things too.

The sticking point is now sex. The has been a bit of a drout whist things were settling down but the last few times we have started we always stop as I want him to spend some time caressing me and turning me on, without just grabbing my breasts or putting his hand between my legs... Not saying he can't do these or I don't like them, just don't want him to start there. I have spoken to him, explained this, but he doesn't seem to get it, the other night I tried moving his hand on to my stomach (which I have said I like been stroked), another time I asked him to kiss my neck.... These are met with a blunt end to proceedings... He says I'm been unreasonable, those things don't turn him on so he shouldn't have to do them. I should just be turned on or be happy with where/how he wants to touch me. If I say please can you do x, the reply will be "well what are you going to do to turn me on? " but he is obviously already more turned on then me...He says I can only ask for things that are mutually enjoyable (I pointed out sex with both of us turned on would be mutually enjoyable)

I think he is obviously turned on enough for PIV sex from much less then I am. Is it unreasonable for me to expect him to spend some time getting me turned on too?)

[BerylStreep]

Yoni, fab post.

[skatingonice]

Yoni that's exactly how things feel. Described perfectly.

A friend this weekend said it was abusive and I should get out. They said although they wouldn't wish it on me, it would almost be better if he hit me as I would be able to see it for what it is and I wouldn't stand for it. It feels strange how people on here and some one IRL have said the same even though I have probably given different examples of behaviour to each.

Today I feel guilty for taking about things.

[CogitoErgoSometimes]

Guilty for talking about things? Do you mean you feel disloyal? Or do you mean you think you've opened a can of worms now and it would have been better keeping quiet and not finding out how bad it really is?

[skatingonice]

Yeah dis-loyal. Is not nice to talk about things behind people's backs is it.

[CogitoErgoSometimes]

It's not nice to subject someone to a pattern of behaviour so manipulative and deceitful that they have to consult friends and random strangers on the internet to work out whether it's normal or not....

You only get one life. Don't waste it standing on ceremony and being 'nice' for the sake of someone who doesn't deserve it.

[Spero]

You are both anonymous. I haven't got a clue who either of you are. Way on earth should you feel guilty for talking about this?

I fear he has corrupted your sense of what is right, healthy and normal.

[YoniBottsBumgina]

Even if he did hit you you would go through the same pattern, because physical abuse doesn't really happen like it does in the soaps/movies (not at first) and hence it isn't as clear a marker as you would think. The one time XP was physically abusive to me, he squeezed my foot so hard I screamed as I thought he would break my bones. I didn't realise that was physical abuse until far after the relationship ended, because it didn't look like a punch in the face. Don't wait around for an incident so serious that you end up in hospital or with after effects which last for the rest of your life.

[YoniBottsBumgina]

And thanks Beryl :)

[skatingonice]

So apparently I wasn't happy enough to be home (followed to bed for the pleasure of this discussion - which he knows i hate him doing)

First reaction is I feel really bad, feel sorry for him having to constantly put up with me not being good enough. Wonder how I can try harder.

I'm trying not to think those things.

I was happy to be home.

[CogitoErgoSometimes]

It's a lot easier not to think those things when you've not got someone breathing down your neck, chip-chip-chipping away at your self esteem with accusations of not being happy to be home or whatever.

As for being 'good enough'... you're as good as you're going to get and as good as you want tobe. If that's not OK for him then surely it's his problem, not yours?

[skatingonice]

But you want people you care about to be happy. And if I've done something that's made him unhappy it's natural to try to improve to avoid the situation next time.

I just read that back, Is that conditioning? It doesn't sound right written down even though it's what I believe in my head.

[amverytired]

Of course it's conditioning.
Where are your feelings in all this?
Why is he not concerned about helping you feel good?
Because he isn't concerned that's why.
Everything is about him.

[CogitoErgoSometimes]

"But you want people you care about to be happy. "

Only if it's reciprocated. Otherwise it's just some one-sided exercise in futility, totally demeaning and a fast-track to misery.

[skatingonice]

It feels very selfish to think about my own feelings when I'm been told I'm doing things that are hurting someone else's.
But at the same time I don't know what I've done wrong.

So from a practical moving forwards point of view, what can I do to build my self esteem?

[amverytired]

I think what you are failing to understand yet is that the goalposts are constantly changing. Once you step up in one area, something else will be a problem.
That's why he is never happy with you, despite you spending all your time thinking about how to keep him happy.

[CogitoErgoSometimes]

I think there comes a point where you have to decide that you need to be selfish in order to survive. That's tied in with self-esteem. It doesn't mean you've stopped caring about others, it just means that - when it comes to the crunch - you regard yourself as more important. You have to believe you deserve better.

It's very very difficult to do that when you have someone in your face telling you that you're getting it all wrong, you're hurting people and all the other negative PR bullshit that you are being fed. When you're living with a one-man spirit-crushing machine even the strongest, most confident, most self-assured person would start to think 'maybe he has a point'. I

So I honestly think you have to go solo or you are destined to stay in this miserable place where you have no confidence and think wanting a good life is 'selfish'

[skatingonice]

But I can imagine it being any different, I can see how someone else wouldn't behave in the same way, this just seems so normal. I still feel so unreasonable to question it.

What if I leave this and get myself into something much worse.

[CogitoErgoSometimes]

And what if you leave this and take time to just be yourself? Don't get into anything with someone new but embrace independence. Create a life where you feel what you want to feel, do what you want to do and don't have to second-guess anything or run anything past the 'what will he think?' test? Be your own woman.

There doesn't have to be a 'someone else'.

[skatingonice]

I know that and I'm fine witg my own company, with my job I get a lot of time on my own with travel etc. I suppose because of that level of independence I find it hard to see that I'm controlled.

[skatingonice]

Long term I would want a relationship though and I can't see how it would be any different.

You're always going to have a difference of opinion with people.

[CogitoErgoSometimes]

Are you being controlled....

another time I asked him to kiss my neck.... These are met with a blunt end to proceedings... He says I'm been unreasonable, those things don't turn him on so he shouldn't have to do them. I should just be turned on or be happy with where/how he wants to touch me.

This from your original post. You asked the man who is supposed to love you above all others to do something as simple as kiss your neck and the very cruel, insensitive & selfish response you got from him had you posting to strangers on the internet and asking 'am I unreasonable?'. Blaming yourself. The principal way that kind of Alice in the Looking Glass situation arises is when someone has been told black is white so long and so often, they're actually believing it.

It's not nice to think you're being manipulated or that your caring nature is being exploited or that you've made a big fat mistake in your choice of partner but there is it...

[CogitoErgoSometimes]

"Long term I would want a relationship though and I can't see how it would be any different. You're always going to have a difference of opinion with people."

Differences of opinion are normal. Browbeating someone into believing that, if they don't agree with you all the time and demean themselves to keep you sweet, they are being unreasonable.... is abusive.

And as for others not being any different, that's just wrong. When you get away from this person I'd strongly recommend you undergo some counselling to unpick the ties that bound you and understand how selfish people operate & your motivations for tolerating the behaviour. Once you can examine the patterns it's possible to change your approach, put yourself first and - very important - spot when someone else is displaying the same abusive behaviour.

[skatingonice]

But what if I'm causing this? I'm obviously looking at the relationship differently, I'm posting on here for one and as a result am probably behaving differently towards him.

What if it's the change in me making him be insecure? Is it not abusive of me to suddenly change how I behave towards him? Who am I to make demands of his behaviour? I can just expect him to be happy with it and not notice if I start behaving differently.

[CogitoErgoSometimes]

You're looking at this through the wrong end of the telescope. Abuse is wrong. Repeat. Abuse is wrong. If the change in your behaviour is making someone unhappy they are entitled to say so but they are not entitled to insult or berate you. If you ask that someone treats you with respect they are entitled to refuse but they are not entitled to accuse you of being unreasonable and bully you into changing your mind.

Ultimately, if you are being less of a doormat & more assertive and he doesn't like it, it's his problem and not yours.

[CharlotteCollinsismovingon]

It would be abusive of you to change your behaviour suddenly if you were doing it with the intention of making him feel insecure. Tbh, if that was your intention, you wouldn't be here worrying about what you were doing!

Your behaviour doesn't cause anything. He is an adult and should take responsibility for his reactions. Do you feel sometimes like you can never be good enough? It sounds like it, with his following you to the bedroom to reinforce some complaint about your feelings not being good enough. Honestly, a normal partner would be concerned if you seemed unhappy to be home, not outraged or angered.

Have you started a diary like you thought about doing? (I realise you've been away so might not have done yet, but thought I'd remind you of your intention in any case.)