Subtle EA? Or is it just me? Confused, please help

[WearingFuckMeSocks]

I sincerely apologise in advance for the length of this post, feel free to skim bits if it makes it easier.

I have lurked here for sometime, have stumbled across the support thread for those in emotionally abusive relationships, have never thought of DH as abusive as he?s never hit me but I?ve been unhappy for a while and couldn't understand why, he?s not overtly abusive, doesn't call me names or put me down in any obvious way, but over the 15 years we?ve been together has done some pretty shitty things. (We?ve been together 15 years, married for 10 and have ds age 7 and dd age 5)

only months after we got together I discovered I was pregnant, I hoped to sit down & discuss it like adults with him; he burst into tears, wailed, sobbed, put his head in his hands and begged me to have an abortion. I would have done anyway but didn't feel like I had a choice. The very fact that I was considering keeping it seemed to offend him.

He once burned the book i was reading on our BBQ (when drunk) because it was called ?The Satanist? and as a Catholic it offended him, esp as his mum had cancer.

once during a heated argument he got so angry he punched the wall right next to my head so hard it left the imprint of his four knuckles in the plaster; he said that was ok, he was so angry he really wanted to punch me but punched the wall instead.

2-3 years ago he decided to get fit so was having sessions with a PT, he badgered me into going too, even though I wasn't keen; after 6 months when i?d lost 1 1/2 stone, and gone from a size 16 to a 12 (im 6ft) he told me one night as i was getting into bed that ?he didn?t fancy me anymore, my tits were all saggy and I?d ruined my body and he wanted me to have a boob job"

last year bought me some eye-wateringly expensive underwear, and despite me saying repeatedly that it didn't fit has proceeded to buy me another 4 sets of same size stuff. Gets upset when I tell him it doesn't fit (again) and says he is only doing it to spice things up and put the spark back.

once remotley wiped my iphone after an argument, and during same argument threatened to sell the car

demanded/coerced me into sex when I had recurring thrush (every month, over a period of four years), despite me telling him repeatedly how much it burned.

no help with kids - has never bathed kids, could count on fingers of one hand how many times he?s put them to bed, says he cant read bedtime stories because he?s dyslexic but manages to spend 2-3 hours on his ipad every night. I thought that was normal until an exchange student we had staying with us for the summer last year commented on how he did nothing with the kids and I did everything.

went on holiday last year, DS took the class ?holiday bear? & was soooo excited, DH said we couldn?t take bear on days out in case it got lost. I was too scared to say the bear could go in the back pack, DS was visibly crushed & in tears, i felt I had failed DS because i didn't stand up to DH.

a couple of years back he tried to persuade me to have my navel pierced, i said no, then during an argument said he just wanted a sign that I loved him, like - guess what - having my navel pierced. to my eternal shame i did it, hated it but thank god it rejected so i took it out.

says he wants me to wear sexy clothes so that when we go out he can show me off and other blokes will be jealous. i don?t really want to anyones trophy.

he wants me to be completely hairless between my legs, i?ve tried it a couple of times but frankly don't like it, thinks its degrading, don?t think im setting a good example to my dd (or ds for that matter, what will he think when sees a real bush?), (and god does it itch when it grows back in) he says I should do it for him to please him.

Says i should do things to please him even if i don't like doing it, as he would do the same for me. i have tried to explain to him that i don't understand how he can get pleasure from me doing something I clearly don't want to do, and that i wouldn't even ask him to do something that he was unhappy with, but he doesn't get it.

A few weeks ago DS was unhappy at school & with homework, after a discussion with the head teacher I was browsing the web looking at home schooling (something I considered before DS started school, not something I?d rush into but it?s always an option) he caught me looking at HE websites, didn't think to ask my opnion about it, just went straight into a tirade about how he disagreed and he was really upset that I was even thinking about it.

basically every argument turns into how he feels about it and how upset I have made him feel and how i need to change my behavior so that he doesn?t get upset and that he?s only happy when I?m happy.

I?ve stuck it this long because of what we?ve been through with his parents, his mum had cancer for years, with all the entailing chemo, radiotherapy etc, then 3 weeks after she died we found out his Dad had cancer, he died 6 months later (Feb 2009). For a long time I?ve made excuses for DH?s behavior because his parents were ill and then obv he was grieving.

Last year things seemed finally to be good, we had about 6 months where I thought we were finally coming out of the woods, but the last 6 months have been hell. We argue every week, he says its because I don't talk to him. I?ve tried to explain I feel afraid to talk to him because he raises his voice, interrupts me, and doesn't listen. He says its all down to me, only I can change it and I?m not normal.

I could go on but think even i'd lose the will to live reading it all.

In short (and thanks if you?ve stuck with me this far) is any of the above normal? would you have put up with this thus far? Am I over-reacting? And what are the chances of things ever being better? should I just cut my losses now and run?

I?ve just turned 40, have taken a long hard look at the last 15 years and don't want the next 15 to be the same.

So ds saying he likes living by a river got turned into a worry that the house might be given away and he'd have to move. I wonder how that happened.

Glad you're showing him you can tell what he's playing at.

The sooner you're rid of him the better!

Stay focussed on that - the rest, all the manipulation, using the kids etc - is just to mess you about. He doesn't care if they get stressed in the process. If you're too busy feeling angry, guilty, enraged, indignant, defensive etc. it all takes energy away from thinking about legal matters, rights and a future without him.

How are you doing OP?

I'd also like to say you are strong enough to do this, and you'll be soooo happy when you've gotten away from him!

I'm glad your family are so supportive and that they are there for you.

And I agree, I think times before the 20th century were pretty misogynistic, it wasn't just Shakespeare!

Thanks for all the support, you lovely people, it keeps me going

Mum sent me a text saying she'd told her sister that me & H had split up, my auntie's exact words were "Thank Christ for that"

Today has been a bit of a funny day, and not in a ha ha kind of way. Been sorting out the business, closing down utilities accounts, arranging card payment terminal return etc, so i felt that i should have been upset, but i really wasn't. i was just ticking things off a mental "things to do" list, which seems never ending, but i will get there, one step at a time.

H has been his usual self, a bit "oh woe is me", he came into work this morning, started to apologise for his awful behaviour over the years but then somehow - and i don't quite know how it happened - suddenly it was my fault for not standing up to him or talking to him and i've done some really awful things to him to but he doesn't bring them up all the time like i'm doing with his faults . he really needs to practise apologising!

At the end of his waffle i merely stated quietly and calmly that I hoped that if and when he does meet someone else he treats her with a bit more respect than he's shown me. What was that about quiet dignity, cjel ?

Oh and he said that in the future, as he's going to be reducing his hours at work a bit, he'd like to be able to just ring me up and pick the kids up from school "spontaneously" if he finishes work early. All together everyone..... "That's something I'll think about" . Like shite he will, it'll just be another way of fucking up my day!!

AND i've worked out that between child tax credits, child benefit and JSA til I can find a job, I should be able to manage financially until we sell the house. I have to admit that my biggest worry was getting into debt just to get by.

appointment with WA tomorrow, feel a bit of a fraud for going now I feel like i'm getting my head around things, but i always think its good to take advice when its offered, and I might learn something new.

AND my mum is having kids for a sleepover next weekend so might see if i can arrange a night out with a couple of friends. Woo Yay!

anyway, sorry for the long post, but im feeling a bit better about my day than I did at the start of it, so thanks

Don't feel a fraud for ringing WA. You have 15 years of being disrespected under your belt. You're very self-aware now, and you're putting and end to it, and well done for cracking on with the admin tasks required to break away, but you are more than entitled to have WA's ear for 20 minutes, so don't feel a fraud. Just because you're self-aware doesn't meant that you won't be bolstered by their validation and another ear, a human to human audience (as brilliant as we are here on MN). They might also have some good practical advice for you although it really sounds like you're on top of things.

I hope you have a great night with your friends. Eat, drink, be merry and give them the good news that you're free now. Lol at your aunt!

Good for you, OP!

I'm glad you will be able to manage until you find a job too, that is a relief.
Don't feel bad about going to WA, they likely will have more info for you, and can offer answers you may not have thought to ask here.

I suspect the FW is testing the waters to see if he still control you from afar with that comment about getting the kids "spontaneously". He'll only do it when he knows it will be a bad time. Expect him to start excuses/arguments when he's to have the kids and he finds out you've planned something!

Am very impressed:)feels good though doesn't it? I had to ring estate agent this week to say I notice they had an offer on a house and they said yes and I dropped into conversation 'well just to let you know I'm joint owner' He had marketed and sold a house I own half of!!!was agreed in our settlement, but he has had a year so far and hasn't signed it yet!! Reassured agent that I wasn't objecting but thought they should be aware!! Once a control freak always a control freak!! Deep breath quiet dignity!!!xx

You're fantastic, Yummy! Well done.

cjel, he's a delight, isn't he?

Just had an hour with the lady at WA (which in a bizarre twist is literally round the corner from my house in a women's refuge!) and feel SO much better just for having to spoken to someone face to face who understands, and has seen it all before (and worse, no doubt).

She is referring me onto the Freedom Programme, and there is another programme after that, can't remember what it was called but its more about building up confidence and having the nous (is that the word?) to spot EA in the future and not repeat the cycle again.

which would be nice.

Think I might go out for a walk, H is due back from swimming with the kids in half an hour (still being SuperDad) and I fancy a stroll and some fresh air and sunshine

Good for you, Wearing

I am also interested in those programmes if anyone else knows more about them. I need a bit of that nous as well.

yes, i would do the course, no matter how self-aware you are (and you are very self-aware for somebody at this stage in the 'exit' iykwim). But, I had been congratulating myself on having seen through my x, and for not being (first) in a realtionship with anybody, and then (finally) being in a relationship with a very nice man........... but ironically, I had allowed a critical person a peripheral role in my life. He wasn't a boyfriend, or even a friend. But this person used to interpret my actions back to me an give them the most critical interpretation possible, he used to race to judge me but covered it up with a top layer of banter, and telling everybody that he really was fond of me, as though that were some fucking prize. Anyway, it is only relatively recently, 5+ years on, that I thought, hang on, why the fuck am I defending myself to you? I had slipped back into that old familiar defend-myself role with this person. He is utterly toxic this man. He is a wolf in sheeps clothing. He is all banter 80% of the time, but subtly encouraging women to blame themselves for everything they struggle with whether it's their children's fathers not being involved, not enough money, you name it, it's your fault. He is a toxic nob.

Anyway, the point is, it's only fairly recently that I realised that despite the fact that I've considered myself wise to my x's mindset, I had returned to the old defend-myself role with somebody else. And i have not dropped the rope. I do not engage with him AT ALL now.

.......... and, although I left my x knowing with absolute certainty I would never again have a toxic abusive bf, I somehow allowed this person airtime, becaise, they weren't a bf, so, I didn't recognise how badly they could still drag down my self-esteem. How judged this person made me feel. He was (and is) nothing to me, but yet I verbally engaged with him and that was enough to make me feel dragged down.

If I'd gone on a freedom course I don't think this would have happened to me.

Sorry for the hi-jack here, but what I'm trying to say here is that it scares me a little that despite my understanding of my x's mindset, despite my awareness that it was HIS problem and that I didn't deserve to be treated like that, and that there was nothing wrong with me,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, I still somehow ended up repeating that role of having to defend myself all the time........... that torture of having somebody think the worst of you no matter what you do, having to set the record straight all the time.. argh! somehow I managed to step up to that role with the one toxic arsehole in my wider casual acquaintance. It's like a fear, thatsomehow, i made myself known to him. By defending myself early on. I should have just shrugged the first time he insulted me, or tried to drama bait me, but I HAD to set him straight didn't i??? I had to singlehandedly cure the world of misogyny, even if i dragged my spirit right down in the process.

I have learnt EVERY lesson the hard way. On the hoof. And if I could go back in time and learn the lessons quicker from a course, I would. And I really believed that I was self-aware and yet I still made some fatal errors. I was never one of those stereotypical women portrayed that believes it's 'love'. I neverr thought that that shit was love. I wanted out. AND I STILL WENT BACK FOR MORE WITH A CASUAL PERIPHERAL ACQUAINTANCE

i HADN'T returned to my x, but i'd returned to the role on a part-time basis

two glasses of wine on board here. i'll leave it here nwo. ! multiple posts! that's my excuse.

JennyMack I do know exactly what you mean! I have had a bit of an alarm-bells moment in my head with a couple of friends in the last two years.

No problem for the hijack JennyMack, and all I can say for someone with under their belt you're remarkably eloquent . And yes, ISWYM about continuing to play the role even after you've realised that your ex is a controlling, manipulative tosser to get suckered in by people you aren't expecting to do that to you.

LIneRunner, i think lots of places offer Freedom Programmes, you can self-refer and local WA should have details for you. Our council website has details of the course as well and it is run in a children's Surestart centre not far from us. I'm sure it wouldn't take very much digging for you to find one close to you.

H has gone out every evening this week, which suits me fine so far. He's asked if he can go out tomorrow night, I said yes, as long as he can stay in Sat night so I can go out. Have nowhere planned yet, if no friend are free I may well go to the cinema on my own! I have no shame

I might have a look too actually. Maybe not Freedom but perhaps something else. I'm sure the only reason I don't suffer the same as Jenny is because my DH won't let me be an apologist, put myself down or allow my internal soundtrack to go there. If he sees me starting to make jokes at my expense he points out what I'm doing. WRT friendships I don't really do casual friendships (I'm happy with my five friends) so I'm not at risk there but perhaps I should be protecting myself emotionally - socially and financially I am very independent as a result of LTB all those years ago.

Your plans Wearing sound lovely. I used to go to the theatre matinee performance by myself to get out and about. Me and about 300 merry widows of Bath in their 70s and 80s. I actually quite enjoyed it as I saw a bit of culture, drank gin and listened to them talk about the war and their lovely husbands.

As a result of my separation and being a single dude I now like going to a restaurant for a meal by myself, a book festival to listen by myself, out to a pub by myself and to the cinema. I also like holidaying alone - in a youth hostel so I meet people - but alone nethertheless. A book or a copy of Grazia and my phone and some time treating myself - nothing better. I'd love to come with you. I won't talk or anything

Enjoy your space this evening. You deserve it.

i love doing those sort of things alone! Theatre, cinema, restaurants, anything really

Lucky for me, really, as dh hates culture with venom, and is a pita if I drag him along. We can't afford much atm, so I don't go any more, but will have no problem resuming my solitary intake when things look up financially! Only I'll be taking dd with me, I suppose, but that'll be more fun than going with dh!

Ive just read your initial post and was chilled by the remarkable similarities you dh showed with mine. Funnily enough, after turning 40 last Feb 2012, and realising i'd spent much of last decade crying and being sad and confused, i finally plucked up the courage to ask him to go in October.

I'd seen Womens Aid since the july beforehand when i began to open up to a friend and she gave me a huge reality check. WA are great. Soooo glad you have visited them and are moving forwards. This is not an easy path though. So expect highs and lows. Him going was liberating. i could breathe again. and felt happy, really happy . and i didnt waken in the morning and wish he'd disappear out my life anymore. And it proved to me id done the right thing.

But then a few months later i began havi doubts when he was very supportive when my teen daughter was playing up. Not a side he showed when he was here. He usually liked to upset and bully her. Although sometimes he was also her best friend too. Oh the game playing. Just like a game of ping pong, same as he made me feel. I began to think....maybe theres a small chance. I got emotional and let my heart rule my head. I never acted on it though and a couple of weeks later i was back to normal again. Then he told me he had girlfriend. As someone who has said to my WA keyworker "any woman is welcome to him, god help her", i wasvery surprised by my reaction. i was completetly floored at being replaced so quickly. felt ghastly for about a week, no eating/sleeping etc. then gradually improved, and im back on top again some weeks later.

So when/if you wobble....that is ok...just hang in there...doubts and what ifs are fine and normal....and just stick with the same direction of travel. Yu are on the right course. Despite anything he does, or says to convince you otherwise. I have still to get through the formal separation/divorce stuff and re-mortgage house etc but every day i grow stronger which i will need to be for that. He still does his bit to hurt and control me...like suck up to my teen daughter and try to breakdown our relationship. And he still blames me for everything and tells me to change and that im the real abuser. but i just rise above that now. And funnily enough like yours, he was little use with dds when we were together, and he even now complains that im giving him chores if i ask him to bath her occasionally. He'd prefer to play on iphone/ps3 for that time.

In short, youve been very brave and are doing best for yourself and family. Id keep seeing WA if you can. very sensible stuff they talk. You deserve far better, just like me. Welcome to the rest of your life.....scary at times, but mostly just full of happiness and stability. I have such joi de vivre right now, because its been stifled for far too long over last 12 years.

Best wishes. X

Thanks Penelope, it's reassuring to hear that other people have been through similar experiences and come out the other side. I'm just finding it all a bit hard at the minute, he's still living in the house with us at the minute and I'm finding it really difficult to be civil because im finding myself becoming increasingly angry at him. The SuperDad thing is really bugging me; it is no exaggeration that he spent more time with them in the past week than he has in their whole lives. he's taken them for a walk today, watched TV with them (which he has NEVER done) taken them to the park and now he has taken them for a picnic with their friends to the little grassy park next to our house. Grrrrrrrrr!

And I'm really annoyed because we told DCs today that mummy & daddy are separating (more on that later), so this afternoon when he comes back, he told me the "funny" tale of how dd said to him that ds would have to go and live with daddy because ds is too sulky - when ds was standing right next to him, and then repeated it again to DS

Told H calmly that I didn't think that was very funny, to make "jokes" about where the kids are going; think he is trying to get back at me because when we told kids this morning I said they would be coming to live with me and they would see daddy every week, and apparently we haven't agreed that yet . Then he started trying to provoke me, was annoyed that I'd stuffed all his laundry from the tumble dryer into a basket so it got all creased! ha ha ha ha - I've been asking him not to do that for years but he carried on doing it.

I think I wil have to ask him to move out, now that the kids know what is going on. there is just a horrible atmosphere, he wants us to be friends. HA! and wants us to be civil, he's still trying to get me to agree to things, he wants us to talk just the two of us before mediation - not likely, he'll just try and steam-roller me into submission.

off to the theatre tonight, on my own. i'm feeling quite giddy at the thought of it

Still quiet dignity wearing Brill. No discussions because then you are being 'unreasonable when you don't agree!!Hope you have a lovely evening:)

Funny what you say about Superdad thing. My DH is still acting that out too - 6 months on. With littlest, and also with my teen DD, infant worse with her. He lends her money - yet moaned completely about me spending anything on her before. He calls her. Has taken her out to cinema and for meals and even let her practice driving his car - all things he would never ever do before. He completely resented her before. But now winning her over by showering with affection and money.

It must be hard living together at moment. The month of October was like that last year for us, and it was hellish. Again superdad made lots of appearances. I fully sympathise, but there's light, so hang in there.

Also completely get the "saying rubbish things in front of kids" thing. So inappropriate! If I had a penny for every time I'd pleaded with him not to say things, I'd be very rich indeed. What arses they are!

It's almost like they're twins separated at birth. Ha ha ha. No joke though, if you read accounts of other peoples experiences with Domestic abuse, it's like reading an account of your own life. Bloo frightening really. These men are cut out the same mould. It's a definite set of traits that are common. But then it's also comforting to know other people have gone through same and that leaving is completely the right thing to do. They WILL NEVER change.

I wouldnts say I've come through it. It's all still really raw. And I have to learn to stop doing all the automatic thinking and behaviours I used to do when with him. But I'm getting better at dealing with it, and seeing his stupid behaviour for exactly what it is.

Have a great night out. X

Have a good night out!

If you tell him to go, do you think he would?

It's horribly confusing for children, even if the parents are living separately but the NRP comes in, puts them to bed, has meals, etc. On the pne hand their parents are separating, but on the other hand they are apparently both still there. You could appeal to his 'better' self on their behalf, but he hasn't actually got a 'better' self, has he?

Worth seeing a solicitor to see whether there is a way to get him to go legally.

Hope you manage it, and good luck.

Well, it's been an eventful 48 hours.

Friday I was at work when a friend, (who worked for us for a while when we ran the business from home) dropped in. I told her that me & H had separated, she was shocked, then we were chatting I decided to confide in her so told her there had been abuse involved, I didn't go into great detail, just an outline, but knew she would understand as she's a trained counsellor. I started waffling about how hard it is and how I can't really tell anyone because they probably wouldn't believe me.

She looked me straight in the eyes and said "Socks, you're forgetting - I worked in your house, and I saw what went on. He's a big man, he's very loud and very overbearing, and there were times when I was scared of him." We had a really good chat, and I felt a lot better after talking to her.

Then H came in and, in front of my friend, started talking about "my attitude" and how I'm nasty to him and how it's going to affect the children if I can't be civil to him. (Btw I'm not actually being "nasty" to him, I'm just not speaking to him unless I have to, which clearly he doesn't like as he still wants us to be friends ) I could tell he was trying to goad me so was very calm, didn't engage and ended the conversation when I saw where it was going. I was shaking inside, and felt so belittled that he'd done it from of our friend. She took him to one side and spoke to him, then he went off and she talked to me again. She said I'd handled it really well and she could see H was just trying to bully me, and that if hed talked to her like that she'd have been scared too. In a way I'm glad she was there because so often it's just me & H and I'm left wondering who was at fault in the exchange.

To be honest I think I'm doing well just speaking to him calmly. I've never hated anyone so much in my whole life as much as I hate him now. I hate what he's done to me for the last 15 years, I hate what he's done to the kids and I hate him for now trying to wheedle his way into the kids affections by going totally OTT and trying to prove what a good dad he is.

So, we told the kids yesterday that we're separating. God, that was the worst thing I've ever had to do. There were tears, obviously, and lots of questions, dd just wanted to know if she could take her toys to the new house when we move, and I told ds that I knew how important a garden is to him so I would look for a house with a garden. They recovered from the shock remarkably quickly, and I told them that they can ask any question they want, no matter what it is.

So later on the swings, ds asked me "mummy, dyou think you'll remarry" cue much umming and erring from me, "well, I might get married again one day sweetie but probably not for quite a while yet", ds continues "why don't you marry [insert name of girl in his class at school]'s Dad, then we'd be step brother & sister !!!

Time for breakfast, dd wants me to keep her company, may post more later x