Support thread for those in Emotionally Abusive Relationships - number 19

[CharlotteCollinsismovingon]

Am I being abused?

Verbal Abuse A wonderfully non-hysterical summary. If you're unsure, read the whole page and see if you're on it.
Emotional abuse from the same site as above
Emotional abuse a more heartfelt description
A check list Use this site for some concise diagnostic lists and support
Signs of Abuse & Control Useful check list
Why financial abuse is domestic violence Are you a free ride for a cocklodger, or supposed to act grateful for every penny you get for running the home?
Women's Aid: "What is Domestic Violence?" This is also, broadly, the Police definition.
Warning signs you're dating a loser Exactly what it says on the tin

Books :

"Why Does He Do That?" by Lundy Bancroft - The eye-opener. Read this if you read nothing else.
"The Verbally Abusive Relationship" by Patricia Evans - He wants power OVER you and gets angry when you prove not to be the dream woman who lives only in his head.
"The Verbally Abusive Man, Can He Change?" by Patricia Evans - Answer: Perhaps - ONLY IF he recognises HIS issues, and if you can be arsed to work through it. She gives explicit guidelines.
"Men who hate women and the women who love them" by Susan Forward. The author is a psychotherapist who realised her own marriage was abusive, so she's invested in helping you understand yourself just as much as helping you understand your abusive partner.
"The Emotionally Abusive Relationship: How to Stop Being Abused and How to Stop Abusing" by Beverley Engels - The principle is sound, if your partner isn't basically an arse, or disordered.
"Codependent No More : How to Stop Controlling Others and Start Caring for Yourself" by Melody Beattie - If you a rescuer, you're a co-dependent. It's a form of addiction! This book will help you.
But whatever you do, don't blame yourself for being Co-dependent!

Websites :

So, you're in love with a narcissist - Snarky, witty, angry, but also highly intelligent: very good for catharsis
Dr Irene's verbal abuse site - motherly advice to readers' write-ins from a caring psychotherapist; can be a pain to navigate but very validating stuff
Out of the fog - and now for the science bit! Clinical, dispassionate, and very informative website on the various forms of personality disorders and how they impact on family and intimate relationships.
Get your angries out - You may not realise it yet, but you ARE angry. Find out in what unhealthy ways your anger is expressing itself. It has probably led you to staying in an unhealthy relationship.
Melanie Tonia Evans is a woman who turned her recovery from abuse into a business. A little bit "woo" and product placement-tastic, but does contain a lot of useful articles.
Love fraud - another site by one woman burned by an abusive marriage
You are not crazy - one woman's experience. She actually has recordings of her and her abusive partner having an argument, so you can hear what verbal abuse sounds like. A pain to navigate, but well worth it.
Baggage reclaim - Part advice column, part blog on the many forms of shitty relationships.
Heart to heart a wealth of information and personal experiences drawn together in one place

What couples therapy does for abusers

If you find that he really wants to change
Should I Stay or Should I Go bonus materials this is a site containing the material for men who want to change - please don't give him the link - print out the content for him to work through.

The Bill of Rights
What you should expect as a starting point for your treatment in a relationship, as you will of course be treating others!!

messing with you Alice...I guess he knows that throwing was part of your previous relationship

fool no. I can't say I've discussed much of it with him. Only the basics, and even that was after we'd been married awhile. I just feel ill, like it's all spiraling.

I think that is probably because it is spiralling....

the last 6 months before I got out were utter hell..he could sense me detaching I think and did more and more to hold on to his power (except what he did was more of the bad stuff....he could equally well have chosen to do more of the good stuff).

I look back now and think what was i doing putting up with all that? Why did I let the children see that? but at the time I was on a journey and I hadn't realised the end point was approaching.

Keep your eyes open Alice and stay safe lovely

I guess he chooses throwing because of your reaction...

I'm in need of some advice as to whether I need to change or if this is FWery. Basically one of H's many gripes is that I do everything for DD and am 'holding her back' (his words).

What he is talking about is that he feels she should do everything for herself that she is capable of. She is 2. So this includes always putting her shoes on herself, taking them off, the same with her coat, walking without holding a hand, picking herself up when she falls over.

Obviously I am encouraging her to do things for herself so she can learn but I keep thinking she is only 2. Surely if she asks for help (Mummy do it please) then it's not wrong or stunting her to take her shoes off for her if she asks. I always praise her when she does do it and she is quite capable of telling me when she's in the mood do to do something herself (Me do it) and then obviously I back off and encourage. Likewise if she falls over and doesn't hurt herself hugely but is crying then it feels normal to go and pick her up, dust her down and get her thinking about something else.

Am I being a crazy overprotective Mother? I don't trust H's opinions but I seem to be doubting myself too. In fact I'm feeling like a really crap Mother who shouldn't be removing DD from her Father for some of the time so she is subjected to me on my own.

You are doing exactly what I do with 2yr old ds. Your H is being an unreasonable loon. You can't expect a 2yr old to do everything they can by themselves. DS can do all of the above things, but unless he says he wants to do it, I do it for him.

Thanks - I kind of thought that/ knew it deep down but 4 days of him tutting and storming off as I've "held her back again" have got to me ..... I mean it's not like she's a teenager

I won't even start on the current argument that she will learn more at nursery 5 days per week than at home with me 2 days and so obviously full time nursery is in her best interest and I'm selifshly wanting her at home with me.......

What utter drivel bounty. Do not listen to him for a second. He is trying to undermine you with DD as he knows that will hurt you the most.

Warning long post for the benefit of the EA man who won;t listen to the research!!!!

RESEARCH ABOUT DAY CARE FOR 2 YEAR OLDS:SUMMARY (for Mum also substitute dad...but not in your case!!)

1.The ideal age to start all-day care (meaning approximately 9am-3pm) is actually not until at least four, if not five, years old. That's because toddlers and preschoolers who are in preschool all day have heightened levels of cortisol and other stress hormones by the afternoon.

1. Toddlers are not biologically designed to be away from parents for long periods of time. In tribal situations, two year olds do go off with the bigger kids for an hour at a time, and they love it. But when they need refueling, emotionally or physically, they are returned to mum.

1. What is it they need the mum for at that point? Well, the parents are their "North Star" around which they orient, their "attachment object." O

1. Can Daycare workers be (substitute) attachment objects? Yes, and in fact that is the only way that kids can do without us while they are in school. They temporarily "transfer" their attachment focus from us to the teachers. However, the attachment relationship they provide is not usually a secure attachment because of the competing demands for their attention and because they are not usually "permanent" in the child's life. This is why childminders or nannies are usually researched as less stressful carers for under 4's

1. The prevailing theory about why "school" is hard on little ones is that they don't have one caregiver who is always responsive to their needs. The kids who have that (in the form of a caregiver at home) don't have elevated cortisol. But that is a caregiver at home, one on one with the child. Even very good "schools" who designate a specific caregiver for three or four toddlers (and this is rare, the norm for toddlers is more like six toddlers to one worker) don't have the capacity to have that person be solely available to your child. What's more, she will inevitably have sick days or days off, and not be available. But simply sharing her with so many kids the same age is stressful because she cannot only respond to your child's needs, whether that would be for a snuggle when he's tired, or to help him navigate a playground dispute, or to get him a drink when he's thirsty, or to delay the next scheduled activity because he wants to watch the worm on the sidewalk.

1. Daycare centers do teach kids, through experience, something about how to cope socially. However, kids can learn those same skills in toddler groups with mom there or with morning only playgroups more effectively

1. Research has shown that Empathy is the most important social skill. The development of empathy comes from being treated empathically. There is no way a daycare worker will be able to see things from your child's point of view as well as you can, or offer the empathy you can. So the most important social skill empathy is taught by the parents, not in "school" group situations. Daycare compromises the learning of empathy.

1. Do kids get something fantastic academically out of the group setting? No. Having a parent who will stop to watch the worm on the sidewalk, who will let him move through his day at his own pace, is what makes for high IQ. Group situations may expose kids to more things than you would, but that is "sophistication" and is easy to catch up with. It is not actually the ability to think, which will develop more quickly one on one with you. Now, there are wonderful learning experiences in school, including Montessori manipulatives, books, etc. But parents can provide those things at home, or kid museums, without the downside of the separation.

1. Do toddlers get something socially fantastic out of the group setting? That depends on the child. I have already spoken about the downsides for many children. The upside is that some kids LOVE the group experience and thrive on it for a few hours a day. You will know if your child is one of these kids because she will crave outings where there will be other kids, and will navigate them well.

Bounty...this is for you, to help you validate what you want, not to induce guilt...we all do what we can and what is best for our DCs....don;t be pushed

Another one voting for this being utter fw drivel, bounty you are clearly a caring and excellent mother, while he is trying to control, control, control. Your r/s with your dd is threatening him on some level and he wants to undermine it and keep it under his control.

Snow thank you for your feedback. I agree with you. FW is messing with my head so much I was beginning to think I should get back with him for the kids' sake even though the thought of it makes me feel ill.

I know that was meant for bounty but man I feel shit for 2yr old ds who has done 3 days a week in a nursery from 7mo as none of the childminders round here were accredited.

match I know but we have good research that suggests that there is a dramatic difference between children who do 18 hours or so in day care and those who do 5 full days...it is where they spend the majority of their waking hours that makes the difference.

as i said...we all do what we have to do to survive...and often we don;t have the freedom to make the choice that we would prefer...we have to feed, clothe and provide a roof. In bounty's case there is the freedom, but her DH (standing for DickHead) is removing the better choice because as we all know they "know better".

Don't feel guilty, you do your best and you are a great mum who thinks about her DC and how to be the best person you can be for him

Oh match dc1, now 9, has been in fulltime nursery since 5 months, dc2 since 9 months. Please do not feel shit; there are enough threads and articles in the world to make working mothers feel shit and I do not think that was the intention. We all do what we can for our children and in my case having been left a single mother it was working to make a better life for me and dc1. Stuff like that does make me want to weep, but then would the alternative have been better? I do not know. None of this is what I would have chosen, but all I can say is thank heavens that good nurseries do exist and women do have options for making a living which they did not have 100 years ago, however they choose to, or are able to, balance work and family commitments.

X-post but am signing out for a while now. If I need to feel bad about my childcare options and I use the word options lightly because there was little choice I will find a WH vs SAHM thread. To be frank, maintaining my job and house even though it was not my ideal (fw did not support me giving up work) turned out to be the thing that meant I could leave the relationship reasonably easily. But this is a support thread not a debate thread, so time to step away for a bit.

match please don't feel bad. I am fighting for 3 full days at nursery rather than the 5 that H wants. I will think that 3 is a victory.

And thanks Fool. That has totally given me the confidence that I needed

Three will be great, bounty, stick to your guns.
Apologies for previous post, obv a sensitive topic for me, but it is not really helpful to take things too personally when the article was aimed to help someone else.
All the best

Matchsticks, I don't think fool meant to say that you are harming children by putting them in childcare from an early age (unless I am remembering completely wrong, she is a childminder), more that Bounty's husband can't possibly use the argument that it benefits them more to be in childcare. More that these FWs try and drive a wedge between us and our children by claiming we are 'mothering' them. Of course we are!!!! [buhmm] But they are jealous of any attention we show our children, at all.

I know from my side, I used to get that wedge from my FW. On my birthday nearly three years ago, he wanted me to leave DS1 in the park and keep walking on round the lake we were at. He was only 5 (DS1, not FW...). I said no, I wanted to keep him in sight. FW went mental and said I was unreasonable regards my need to over protect DS1 and then insisted we went home there and then. [busad]
On another occasion physically stopped me (held onto me) when I went to run to DS1 after he had fallen (at the same park...) and had cut his leg. I was over-reacting, apparently, and out of order. Ds1 was 'fine' he said.

It's just another way to guilt and control you, bounty. In the end, I was afraid to give DS1 cuddles in front of FW for fear of DS1 getting told he was a baby. When we moved into our flat on our own, it took DS1 over 6 months to get over his fear of coming into my room if he was up early or had a nightmare. Six months of not coming for comfort when he needed it or a cuddle just because he wanted it, because of how FW had made him feel.

Sorry, rant over! Today has been a thoughtful day for me.

Having said that, it finally happened today, as I have long predicted - I had to leave a shop without what I went in for, with a screaming and kicking DS2 under my arm. He has his father's temper, no doubt! People were staring. This never ever happened with DS1!

snow I'm happy for the debate to stop now. All I wanted was the back up to know that what I was feeling is correct. As I feel like sometimes I'm not sure what is right anymore. I think as parents in an EA situation we are all super-sensitive to perceived criticism or the possibility that we've not done the best for our DC. we are probably more critical of ourselves than anyone else. Please do not 'step away'. I don't think any more needs saying on the subject (except for hopefully me returning to say that DD will only be going 3 days per week )

Pony I was focusing on the part where it says children in daycare ( presume this refers to nurseries) have heightened levels of cortisol and their caregivers cannot properly empathise with them. I am probably going to have to up to 4 days in September in order to be able to get savings together to be able to afford holidays. DS seems happy where he is, is happy to go and is very sociable. I think we are all trying to do the best we can and I realise Fool didn't post that to make anyone feel bad.

I am lucky at least because I don't have to consider how much FW wants me to work now I'm out and he was such a tight arse when we were together that me pointing out the cost of upping childcare if I were to work more always put him off me doing so.

Sorry bounty x-posted!

Yes hopefully bounty. Three days would have been my ideal. One of the things FW said in a post split history rewrite 'conversation' was that I did not want to work part-time. What he meant was that he did not want additional financial responsibility. But at the end of the day, for me, I am just lucky that I have a good job I enjoy with some flexibility. But it is cr@p in a way because none of it was or is how a partnership is meant to be - because it was or is not a partnership. Why does that bit take so long to sink in?! (rhetorical question to self) Anyway, good luck with getting your three days.

Oh hey, without being flippant, i worried myself that dc2 would be affected by having his levels of cortisol high when I was pregnant as I was so stressed throughout.

I know that I am completely guilty of dd having high levels of DD cortisol throughout pregnancy and throughout our relationship, I did my damndest to make things cool, and defended her fromthe constant stress of a FW who refused to acknowledge his continual stress, but I could feel its effect and knew how stressed I was feeling and probably undoubtedly her, and I didn't knw that stuff about day care, it would have influenced my decision around childcare definitely, but I didn't have that information then, and we all have to work with what we have and generally keep moving in the right direction as best we can.

I can't wait for tomorrow to be over.

warm wishes to all xxx

Well I think i might have won this one. Just had a massive argument re 3 days vs 5 days at nursery. H said some really nasty things about how much better nursery is than being with me as I know nothing about child development. Showed his true colours actually as he's been pleasant recently but was truly vile tonight. Anyway the argument came round to him huffing that he doesn't care and I should do want ever I want. This is usually my cue to back down. But I haven't tonight. I'm going to put it in writing tomorrow. He has refused to say goodnight to me and is making up the spare bed. It really is the beginning of the end isn't it?

One of the things he said to me has got me thinking (no doubt as intended). But if dd falls over with him she rarely cries but with me she often does. He sees this as an example of his superior parenting. But surely this is that she has already learned at 2 years of age that it is pointless showing her emotions as he won't act on them.