So after 14 years together, 12 years married and 3 dcs he lobs this out of left field ...

[SimoneDeBeaver]

He'll be back late because he's going to a Freemason's dinner.

God I don't even know which bloody emoticon to put, as I don't know whether to laugh hysterically, cry or blow up.

This is a man who has always been fun, kind, thoughtful, supportive, dare I say it, a feminist. And he cannot seem to understand why this has left me feeling extremely unnerved. (mainly because I'm not sure what it is and why it is)

I mean, what do they DO? I know they do lots of charidee work, but we already give all we can afford, volunteer a lot, involved in church ... I mean, FTLOG why does he need to join what seems to me a misogynist, secretive, frankly rather silly old-boys club?

Aaaaargh!!

Again with the 'meh.

I dont KNOW anything about the Freemasons - I'm not one. Unless you are one, then you can't KNOW there is anything wrong with it. If my DH came home one evening and said he was joining the Freemasons all I would want to know would be what evening of the week DD and I would be having Shepherds Pie for tea! (DH doesn't like it, so I only make it if he's out)

He also wouldn't care if I did it. Once a month I have to go to Mess Meetings where I am the only female in a room full of men drinking beer for a couple of hours. He doesn't care. If he did, and if he tried to put me off going, or was obviously pissed off that I did then I would be hurt, angry and disappointed in him. I would also consider his behaviour to be very controlling.

I trust DH not to piss me off too much, he trusts me to do the same.

(Oh and I used to be a shoe-gazer, then I was a hippy free spirit that went to all the festivals. DH was a Greebo and listened to Heavy Metal. We both grew up.)

Are you sure that's where he went? My husband spends about £30 and is home in time for Question Time. Ask him where it was. The buildings tend to have some sort of sign indicating they're Masonic lodges.

Voiceof you and I are going to have to agree to disagree. I do not believe that all-female clubs are the same, or equivalent to, all-male.

I would have to go deep into the history of male-female politics/feminism to explain myself and I don't have the time atm.

and yes, why does it need to be secret? And it's not as if they need to broadcast all details on their website, the secrecy itself is a power thing, isn't it?

LtEve - you see joining a secret club seems quite the opposite of getting grown up. Stick to the metal.

LtEve see my post at 11.21 for why it's wound me up - we don't have the luxury of a spare evening in this household.

yes quite Easter - OK at university maybe. But then grow up. And if you want to give lots to charity, it's hardly a small market, is it?

So is he away 4 evenings out of 7 then Simone?

simone - that's fair enough, it would be a strange world if we all agreed on the same things. But there will ALWAYS be some organisations that are exclusively male and others that are exclusively male.

I agree with your earlier posting that the Freemasonry thing is a total red herring. It's about time and money.

Bitdifferent yes he def. did go there - I'm not going into too many details but his travel arrangements meant he was away an extra night as a result of the dinner.

And don't read too much into that ! It is exactly what he does every week.

LtEve yes usually.

LtEVE YOU CANNOT BE SERIOUS!!!!!
quote''I dont KNOW anything about the Freemasons - I'm not one. Unless you are one, then you can't KNOW there is anything wrong with it.''

I'm not a Nazi/ rascist/ whatever........either --but I don't need to BE one to know whether I think there is something wrong with it.........

Yes Jimmy Savile was a freemason.

And as posters have pointed out, the day the guides, the WI, the brownies or indeed any female-only organisation have been consistently accused of allowing their members to get away with murder, systematic child abuse or other serious crime, get lower sentences, evade detection, win public contracts unfairly, attain jobs not based on merit or ruin people's careers if they uncover the truth, the comparisons with freemasonry will be valid. All of these things have happened within the last 100 years, some of which have been proven beyond reasonable doubt (mainly planning and procurement scandals).

As was pointed out on another thread about this a few months ago, it's a big organisation with lodges everywhere and so not all of its members will even be aware of the corruption that exists, especially those who seek no favours and are not in positions to be able to give them. Evidently therefore, their partners and family members know less even than that, because it's an organisation that demands secrecy.

But even a rudimentary knowledge of human nature demands that you ask yourself a few questions. Why would men still pay so much money to be part of an organisation from which they derive only social benefit from? Why is it a 'society with secrets'? Why does it refuse to publish its membership and even when compelled to by the Home Secretary, did it lie and then spend its money fighting legal battles to prevent that demand? Why does it refuse to admit women? Why does it not have a photo ID for members to show when they visit another lodge, instead relying on members demonstating secret signs to one another to prove membership? How might those signs be used in other situations that would evade notice by non-members, but attract favourable treatment from fellow masons?

If you don't believe that it is sinister and allegations about it are the work of conspiracy theorists, have a look at the sort of people who have made allegations about them in the past. People like John Stalker, the former Deputy Chief Constable of Greater Manchester Police, who was abruptly removed from office prior to publication of his report that the RUC had a shoot-to-kill policy in Ireland and had covered up murder. Read about the Jersey care home scandal at the Haut-de-Garenne and how the non-masonic police investigative team was similarly removed when they uncovered organised child abuse. Read about how Kenneth Noye a Grand Master got away with the murder of detective John Fordham, not to mention the life of crime that officer was investigating before his death. Read about the botched investigations undertaken by the initial Stephen Lawrence Murder Enquiry teams and the links between senior masonic police officers and the freemason father of one of the suspects.

I understand why people are joking about how pathetic it is that grown men pay to dress up, perform rituals and keep secrets but some of them do it for a good reason.

have to go, but thanks for helping me sort thoughts.

kweggie - that's taking it to an extreme, but as with ANY organisation or company, there will always be someone or several someones who are corrupt or do bad things within it. Some of them may be female - shock horror. But Eves point is valid to the extent that it is all too easy for any one of us to spout forth on subjects with only a small amount of information.

I know people who are in the Plymouth Brethren religion. Some left it and say awful things about it. Others within it say the opposite. They are probably both right due to their own experiences.

A man spouting forth about childbirth will be told by plenty of women to shut up, he knows nothing about it because he hasn't been through it.

As I said before, there is a book that says Jack the Ripper was a Mason. It's been totally rubbished. But plenty will believe it. Just because ONE author says something doesn't make it true. Just because 20 people say Freemasonry is evil doesn't make it true. The difference with Nazism and racism is that there is HUGE evidence, irrefutable evidence of mass, widescale appalling atrocities.

There are bad apples everywhere. Just because there was SOME wrongdoing at the BBC - severe wrongdoing - does not make the whole BBC and everyone in it evil.

Yes, I agree it is nothing like the WI. Women don't swear to help each other out beyond the law, and to tear out each other's tongues if they talk about what happened at a meeting (even if minutes are not always wholly accurate!)

I do have issues with any club that is single gender (either sex), but especially ones that are secret and especially ones that are known to have abused that power and which contain very senior lawmakers and law enforcers. It should be a term of government employment (whether as doctor, policeman or judge) to declare membership of all secret societies. If the society won't let you be honest about belonging, then leave it. if you can't bear to leave it, then turn down the job.

OK, so they say in their rituals than anyone that squeals gets their tongue torn out. Quite a few people have come out the Masons and squealed about what supposedly went on. When was the last time any of them got murdered or had their tongue torn out?

OK, so it's nothing to do with the Masons then is it - you just don't want him to spend another night away, and that's understandable.

If DH approached me and said "I don't want you to join the Masons because its secretive, old boys network, devil worshiping" and all that bollocks I'd tell him to piss off and grow up.

If DH approached me and said "I don't want you to join the Masons because I only see you 3 nights out of 7 as it is, and I don't want to see you even less" I'd say - sorry love, I didn't think, I'll bin the idea then.

Badinage - thank you for your last post.
You write much better than me.
I'd like to add missing and murdered children to your list.

I truly think that it is difficult for 'normal, good' people to comprehend the extent of the wrong doing that some of these FMs are involved in.

Maybe one day we will have the truth.
It has taken over 20 years for the truth to be told about Hillsborough.

Bryn Estyn atrocities surfaced again recently and copies of the original report have been found. (They were almost all destroyed in order to cover up the abuse).

Dunblane was given a 100 year gagging order, which is quite incredible.

Freemasonry is rife across the world.

Far - you say it yourself SOME of these FMs are involved in. SOME. Not ALL. The way some people post on this thread you'd think that everyone who is involved in the Masons has to be deeply suspect and unpleasant.

...and yes Kweggie. I am completely and utterly SERIOUS!!!!!
(and please, no need to shout or use copious amounts of exclamation marks - makes you look unhinged)

All I know about the Masons is stuff that sounds Conspiracy Theorist at best (tearing out tongues - really? what a load of bollocks). I tend not to judge people without knowing them and having experience of them, I'm the same with clubs/gangs/societies. I don't know the truth, so it's not up to me to judge.

okay, let's simplify it then.

Why does it have to be secret. And it does, HAVE to be.

My exes mums partner was in it They are corrupt and then some.

LtEve, if you 'tend not to judge without knowing or having experience of them', how do you ever form an opinion? What do you do when you watch the news or read a newspaper?

A lot of very wealthy non-Masons give a lot of money to charities and organisations but don't wish it to be publicised for assorted reasons. Among which, perhaps, lots of begging letters. They do it in secret. Doesn't automatically mean they are corrupt tongue-tearers!