Support thread for those in Emotionally Abusive relationships....can it be 18?

[foolonthehill]

Am I being abused?

Verbal Abuse A wonderfully non-hysterical summary. If you're unsure, read the whole page and see if you're on it.
Emotional abuse from the same site as above
Emotional abuse a more heartfelt description
a check list Use this site for some concise diagnostic lists and support
Signs of Abuse & Control Useful check list
why financial abuse is domestic violenceAre you a free ride for a cocklodger, or supposed to act grateful for every penny you get for running the home?
Women's Aid: "What is Domestic Violence?" This is also, broadly, the Police definition.
20 signs you're with a controlling and/or abusive partner Exactly what it says on the tin

Books :

"Why Does He Do That?" by Lundy Bancroft - The eye-opener. Read this if you read nothing else.
"The Verbally Abusive Relationship" by Patricia Evans ? He wants power OVER you and gets angry when you prove not to be the dream woman who lives only in his head.
"The Verbally Abusive Man, Can He Change?" by Patricia Evans - Answer: Perhaps - ONLY IF he recognises HIS issues, and if you can be arsed to work through it. She gives explicit guidelines.
"Men who hate women and the women who love them" by Susan Forward. The author is a psychotherapist who realised her own marriage was abusive, so she's invested in helping you understand yourself just as much as helping you understand your abusive partner.
"The Emotionally Abusive Relationship: How to Stop Being Abused and How to Stop Abusing" by Beverley Engels - The principle is sound, if your partner isn't basically an arse, or disordered.
"Codependent No More : How to Stop Controlling Others and Start Caring for Yourself" by Melody Beattie - If you a rescuer, you're a co-dependent. It's a form of addiction! This book will help you.
But whatever you do, don't blame yourself for being Co-dependent!

Websites :

So, you're in love with a narcissist - Snarky, witty, angry, but also highly intelligent: very good for catharsis
Dr Irene's verbal abuse site - motherly advice to readers' write-ins from a caring psychotherapist; can be a pain to navigate but very validating stuff
Out of the fog - and now for the science bit! Clinical, dispassionate, and very informative website on the various forms of personality disorders and how they impact on family and intimate relationships.
Get your angries out ? You may not realise it yet, but you ARE angry. Find out in what unhealthy ways your anger is expressing itself. It has probably led you to staying in an unhealthy relationship.
Melanie Tonia Evans is a woman who turned her recovery from abuse into a business. A little bit "woo" and product placement-tastic, but does contain a lot of useful articles.
Love fraud - another site by one woman burned by an abusive marriage
You are not crazy - one woman's experience. She actually has recordings of her and her abusive partner having an argument, so you can hear what verbal abuse sounds like. A pain to navigate, but well worth it.
Baggage reclaim - Part advice column, part blog on the many forms of shitty relationships.
heart to heart a wealth of information and personal experiences drawn together in one place

what couples therapy does for abusers

If you find that he really wants to change
should I stay or should I go bonus materials this is a site containing the material for men who want to change?please don?t give him the link?print out the content for him to work through.

The Bill of Rights
bill of rights here is what you should expect as a starting point for your treatment in a relationship, as you will of course be treating others!!

Thanks all, am feeling not too bad now, the power of painkillers!!

I know, the NSPCC story really affected me - in some ways, I minimised, I said to myself 'this story is far more extreme than what DS1 suffered'. But at the same time I recognised what FW had done to DS1 was the same thing (maybe just not at the same level), and the little girl in the story was having to phone the NSPCC helpline and felt suicidal. It was hard to see the similarities there too, in how she felt and how DS1 feels.

mink - of course you can cope. You are coping, every day, with them on your own - why would being in a different country be any different? There would be more for them to do, more for you to do, and lots of sunshine. You'd have a great time. Go for it.

Breathe - I get that too. I took DS1 and his cousin to a museum together, and DM was concerned that 'was I sure I could manage?' FFS. And from reading the FP book, and reading about the constant messages that society gives woman - the next time I hear my dad say 'Oh what do you expact, she's a woman after all', or make a comment about women drivers, I am going to pull him up on it and point out that he can't be both angry at how I've been treated by FW and making the kind of comments that suggest it's ok to treat women without respect. I expect fall-out, but really, I can't sit back and listen to that any more, not when my kids (and niece/nephew) are listening/taking it in/believing it too.

Ooooooh, sorry, got all ranty there, got quite angry this morning reading the book and realising how set-up for being put down I was. Breathe, I think it's good for us to become a bit more ranty, make people realise we are not walkovers any more!

Glad you are feeling better Pony. I think it is very interesting to see how we are set up to accept FW behaviour. My DF does what yours does, although warm and loving he belittles women and stereotypes us all into gender roles. My DB1 is his favourite and they love to sit and drink port together being pompous.
I have found reading Anne Dickson's book A Woman in your Own Right very useful, but after I have flexed my assertiveness muscle and got what I want I feel horribly guilty and as though I should apologise and back down!

Split into two posts cos I could feel another rant coming on...

Breathe, have everything crossed for you. We've had a second viewing on our house, keep 'em crossed for us too that something comes of it.

Breathe, I read this comment of yours, and it resonated so much.

Anyway, now my resident fw is a nasty, manipulative man, but confusingly can also be a fantastic dad when he's not being an abusive dad (verbally and emotionally, I managed to stop him smacking)

That is how I felt too. That he could be a great dad. But I have come to realise that he is not a great dad. His parenting largely consists of doing things that he thinks are important and make his input very visible (doing homework if it means getting involved in projects) but not in other things he thinks aren't going to garner him as many 'good dad' points (like day-to-day homework). He is very big on being seen to be a great parent. Big gestures, big meals, baking cakes (all translated as big mess, which either me or the kids had to mostly tidy), a united front at family occasions. I remember a frequently used phrase to his DDs was 'straighten your face' - in other words, I don't care if you're miserable if I've made you miserable as long as you look happy and we look happy together.

I saw it the most with DS1, who was his stepson. He could be brilliant with him - encouraging him to do drawings (because FW liked drawing himself) and spending time with him outdoors (because he liked being outdoors, and he could get the kudos of being a great step-dad if anyone saw him). But it was all for show. The fact that he's so easily dropped DS1 shows that.

Breathe, I suspect your FW is only being a good dad for show too. If he was genuinely a good dad, he'd be able to treat the mother of the children he apparently loves so much a whole lot better than he does. And good dads don't emotionally abuse the kids and try and turn them against her either (as he already has done), or put down their mother in front of them, or threaten her or shout at her or do all the other things.

Sorry Breathe, that all just triggered my anger at FW and his 'pretend good dad' act! Everything seems to be triggering me at the mo.
See you later on the hilltop, by the fire nursing something medicinal.

Lemon - I am the same! The one time I have asserted myself, and told my family that I didn't like how they were being towards me, and stood up for myself (only a bit) resulted in my sister not talking to me for months, and my parents going all 'woe is me, she's cutting us out of her life'!!!! I'm the docile doormat, normally. But how can they think I'm going to draw a line with FW if I'm not drawing a line with everything that puts me down? It's all part of the same problem.

Thanks all for messages of encouragement. the dcs are 5. They are a bit wild/phone to wandering but we manage and if you prep them before hand they can be wee angels.

Re. good dad thing/ family man. think you may be spot on that it is for show. they like to think they are good dads and they like other people to think same but when it comes to day to day their own sense if importance gets in the way.

i think family values often means a totally different thing to women.

Ex has family man thing on his profile but shows true colours then he says he cannot have kids more.

Family values = i have a family and i am through most important person in it. they are my family and my opinion matters. i like people to know i have a family.

Versus

my family are the central thing in my life and i put family before other considerations including myself if needs be. i enjoy being with my family.

i am through i am THE

Ponygirl - you're a braver woman than I! I just let my family's BS slide - so not worth the train wreck that ensues if I try to assert myself; it usually ends in my mother being the victim and half the family ringing me up telling me how awful I am to her....resulting in me feeling even worse!

Though I agree - it's all part of the same problem - family giving you low self-esteem and wishy-washy personal boundaries that they stamp all over as and when they deem suits them - or that's my experience anyway.

Feeling very tearful today - I know DP is having a shit time at work but I'm just seriously alarmed after having a hard think about the past couple of weeks and some of the behaviour I've witnessed - and his minimising of my personal past last night....feel like just packing up the car, picking DS up from Beavers tonight and leaving a note...and all this came to a head last night mainly due to FWExH being, well, a FW and taking the piss as usual...

mink - spot on. This is my family, so they belong to me, they are my possessions.

trust - thanks for saying that. But don't think I was brave, just so depressed and confused that all I could do was react honestly rather than nod and go along with it as usual! And yes, it did result in my mother being the victim (head in hands, etc), and my sister refusing to speak to me for ages and then coming down hard on me for upsetting DM. (Never mind how they'd all upset me, at a point when I was about as low as I could get after leaving FW! But it's all 'in the past' now that I've come back to the fold... )

You're absolutely right, my counselling has revealed a lot to me about how my upbringing taught me that my needs and boundaries weren't important, and obviously that made it easy to get caught up in FW's abuse.

Could you get a break from DP at all, maybe a weekend at a friend's or relative's? That might help you be able to see things more clearly. Do you want to share the issues you are concerned about? Might help to get another perspective.

Good afternoon ladies

glad others' nights out enjoyed, any get love interest? Had a couple of fellas next to me doing reasonably aggressive chat up ... grrr.. wasn't scared though!,. just wish they would treat the strange female race as human, and have normal convo's rather than making hints about many pubs having too many men! and listing interests as 'women'

y y to (sorry not gonna be able to manage full complement of name checking, as too bleary eyed to retain that detail of info) the mention of 'old flame'? was it? making advances..... my gut reaction right now is, run for the hills, but I do recognise thats not the 'normal' way!?!? Go slow, is my only advice here, which I would take for myself, go slow and go very slow! I guess it's bout having no pressure enjoyable socials only? is that a good place to start? Seems right for me right now, as in, only male friendships if that! because the creeping thought in the back of my head is that this is how they all start (pretending they're our friends!).

I'm looking forward to the FP one where they tell you the rules of the radar on first meeting! So as regards your radar, post ^thread mentions, mines broken obviously and being 'over-sensitive' to things... I do think its far better to be that way, and cautious than gung-ho about the next time, and surely nice bloke understands caution from lady who previously taken to the edge, and beyond experienced FWitttery.

(((Hugs))) Pony scarey chest pains, v. relieved to hear you feeling much improved today, def. worth checking into, I'd think, so you can absolutely rule out anything of greater concern?

Tis good to hear of managing wider family! Accepting our own rights as good mothers, means asserting that and the rest have to just accept it?

but just being our own women/mothers does challenge other more neandertal attitudes! .. but hey, too bad, right? Although a lot easier said than to live with! (not sure about speelling of neandertal???)

umm.. soz Silvery I will check, I think I did I will double-check and get back...

Hopes for good w/end for all FWittery free, or good resolve for plans and out! xxx

I am scared of my anger coming out! I am starting to get feelings of rage over everything that has happened. I sit in FP and imagine myself getting up and walking out because its painful to keep staying and trying to hear things like his anger wa engineered and he wasn't actually out of control another thing I should have seen when he instantly snapped into Mr Nice guy when the police tapped him on the shoulder mid-rant!

I feel a sense of welling anger that worries me, and makes me tearful at the same time I think this is what they mean about not going home and facing him with it (or in my case heading round there to confront with all the wrong doings).

grrrrr.... grrrrr.

pony spot on with what you say re fw being show-dad. He obviously does love them but it's all on his terms. If he loved them selflessly, he wouldn't shout at me about splitting the house in front of worried and confused dd, etc etc (so many examples of similar).

Fi at hungover post! Glad you had a great time, you deserve some fun

Ah fi it's sad how we are scared of our own anger - maybe because we've never been given permission to feel outraged from an early age.

I sometimes wonder if that's the root of my panic attacks.

Breathe - you could be right. But sounds like you are giving yourself a bit of permission to get your angries out today, even a little? That's a good thing.

Mink

^Family values = I have a family and I am through most important person in it. they are my family and my opinion matters. i like people to know i have a family.

Versus

my family are the central thing in my life and i put family before other considerations including myself if needs be. i enjoy being with my family. ^

Spot on

Only it is not that family values are different for women.
It is that FWs have no values of any sort - except, of course, that they 'are worth it.

EXFW did not even understand men who cared about their families.
A few years ago, two men he worked with told him about their wives' health scares. He looked completely bemused and said of each man 'He seemed to be genuinely upset and worried'
As if he could not get his head around how daft some men could be.
But then, he always was a nasty shit (only to us, of course) :(

*Family values = I have a family and I am through most important person in it. they are my family and my opinion matters. i like people to know i have a family.

Versus

my family are the central thing in my life and i put family before other considerations including myself if needs be. i enjoy being with my family.*

Does option 2 even exist for men? I'm beginning to wonder...

Arthritic - your ExFW sounds delightful!

Ponygirl - I'm not even sure where to start, I think I might be blowing it out of proportion...

Basically it started with the council tax - just got a demand from them and they're not aware that I'm living at the house, but he thought they were aware and for some reason he thought I was supposed to have told them last July when I moved in. I was under the impression he had done it. I repeated myself a couple of times because I have a horrible habit of doing that (years of not being taken seriously and treated like I'm silly and not feeling heard I guess) and he snapped at me like he's never snapped at me before and then went on to explain that he realises he's fucked up and didn't need it pointing out to him. Then, a bit later, ExFWH calls to speak to DS - 10 minutes late (it was 15 minutes early the night before and I'd politely sent him an email asking him to please call on timeFW calls early and were in the middle of something DS has no wish to talk to FW) All this of course winds me up and worries me because I'm still waiting for FW to bring a custody suit against me here in the UK and he's very good at gathering information and then twisiting it to his advantage. Just before DS goes he tells FW that he is going all day to "somewhere he doesn't want to go to" tomorrow (Beaver East Midlands meet that he wanted to go to and I'd paid for and he's just 10 minutes earlier, prior to FW phone call decided he didn't want to go after - all)

Yes, this bothered me and it really bothered DP - who then laid into DS telling him well done for giving his dad the impression that we're just palming him off on other people for our own benefit: I try to stop him and get him to calm down, but he refuses and proceeds to tell DS he has to be careful what he says to his father since his father twists the truth and is also a habitual liar (DS does know this - after two years of fuckwittery I've had to explain to DS why I can't just let him go and visit his dad in the states which involves his father being an untrustworthy liar who will say just about anything to get what he wants)

I send DS upstairs because I can see things have gone too far and DP isn't going to let up.

Big conversation - he's sick of DS playing people off of each other and I try to eplain that while he has the benefit of 37 years experience in life DS has only 8 and it's likely he doesn't realise the implications of some of the things he says...in the midst of all of this it comes out that apparently I'm tetchy and tense all the time (not true) and that I over-react to things too easily and basically I'm lucky he's so tolerant (he references that recently we have bought a new car seat for DS after I found out that our car seat was on Which? magazine's do not buy list for basically being really and truly shit in side-impact collisions) I wasn't even aware he'd thought I'd over-reacted about this - all I did was my research, showed DP the video clip of the crash test dummy's head smashing into the side of the car on impact and he immediately agreed that our car seat was a pile of shit and we needed to get a new one straight away but last night he goes and says "It's a bloody good job I was off shift so we could go and get another one straight away or you'd have worried yourself into a frenzy." Er, no and what was stopping me going to get one even if he was on shift - I have the bank card, I can drive and I speak the English language and can use GPS to find my way to the store...so I'm really scratching my head over that one...

He did admit that he had completely over-reacted to DS and was sorry. I pointed out that lately he'd come home on a couple of occasions and instead of smiling and saying hello to DS (which he did with me) he barked an order at him about eating with his mouth closed...and I asked him what kind of impression about how he felt about DS that was giving DS....he immediately replied with "Well I came home this evening and greeted DS and he didn't even say hi to me because he was too busy on the Wii...I tried to point out that he is the adult in the relationship nd he was responsible for the relationship...and he did listen..but then throws his hands up in the air and says "but what do we do?"...er, we treat our kids how we would wish to be treated? Don't get me wrong, I'm not perfect...I keep falling into the what I know trap and then have to make an about turn and parent the better way...

The issue of DS constantly eating with his mouth open comes up - dont' know what the deal is there but we just can't get him to eat with his mout closed and meal times are becoming a battlefield...DP points out that I tell DS too..and I point out that the only reason I get onto DS about it is to try to get him to stop so it doesn't bother DP anymore because it's obviously a huge issue for him...and he rplies that right, fine, he won't ask DS again and I needn't be making an effort to try to handle things on his behalf because he is 37 after all...

In explaining why I sometimes repeat myself and am a bit of a worrier I refer to my past and my child hood and marital abuse and he basically waves it off and rolls his eyes...

So I go to walk away...but he wants to carry on talking because he doesn't want to go to bed on an argument...and we eventually get around to me pointing out that he was unfair about me being tetchy all the time and he admits that that was an unfair statement but that I have been more tetchy lately but he hasn't been keeping score (really?!) because I'm pregnant and all and he doesn't want to dwell on things...

He tells me again that he was out of order this evening and then starts to go on about how shit work is lately...and I point out that coming home and being short with us is also making his home life shit and if he can't see that then maybe we're not going to make it.

He says don't say that, and that he's sure with all the love and respect we have for each other we would never get to that point and that he also needs to address bringing work worries home (I point out I'm happy to hear him talk about how crap things are, I am not happy to have him take it out on me or DS)...oh and also...I'm thinking in my head at this point "What respect? You've just been pretty unkind to me really..."

So, I've had all day to think about this and have added 2 other incidents this week (1 where DP just sat down and turned over the TV channel without even asking DS if he minded since DS was in the middle of watching a cartoon) and one where DS was being pretty rude to me and DP stormed in and grabbed an airplane off DS that was in his hand...and it broke...he's yet to replace it but says he's really sorry and has apologised to DS about it and that he will buy him another one...

Add to that the debacle about me getting pregnant and him not initially wanting it and then changing his mind after we thought I'd lost it only to find at an assessment scan that I was in fact still pregnant (we had an argument the night before that scan where he said he was most certainly going to get the snip in the new year and yet the next day, when baby unexpectedly pops up on screen he bursts into tears, tells me if there's anyone he would want a baby with it would be me and that he's sorry he'd been such an indecisive git and he was glad I had stuck to my guns and that after we thought I'd lost it he had realised him not wanting it wasn't what he had wanted after all but he hadn't dared tell me because he could see how distraught I was over thinking I'd lost it and didn't want to add to that...so, if that's the case whey did he tell me the night before he most certainly was going for the snip in the new year instead of palnning to leave it for a few weeks and then telling me how a MC had made him feel and that he'd like a baby with me after all?)

Phew, that's about it...those are the things that are bothering me...

I'm just left scratching my head

Trust
You have quite enough on your plate without this.
You don't need and it is not helping you or adding anything but anxiety.

trust the thing I'm noticing is that your DP does at least seem to be aware what his own feelings and processes are and is prepared to share them with you. I only have your post to go on, but my gut reaction is that the stress of still having ExFWH in your lives is affecting the whole family. Yes DP vacillates and is indecisive and doesn't know what he wants (till he sees it on the scan), I'm a bit like that, or was. And you are right to state your boundaries and are doing so.

Wow, there's a lot on this thread today! I've just popped in briefly as DB here and might not be back for a day or so, but just thinking aloud:

FW seems genuinely to think he's a nice person. He will refuse offers of help of tidying up from guests, saying, "We'll do it later," and - you've guessed it - when later comes, it's me who does it all, or at least the bulk of it. But he seems to think that it's something he'd LIKE to do if only he had the time. Am I being terribly gullible, I wonder?!

I suppose it's a boundary thing, too, though - he doesn't see a difference between him and me, so it's fine for him to volunteer me for whatever. Is that a dodgy boundary thing? I feel so selfish if I'm not willing to do the thing he volunteers me for!

Thinking of you all, even if unable to read through. xx

Charlotte - he does not have the right to volunteer you for something and then just expect you to do it. "We,ll do it later" ooh, he likes to look good in-front of other people doesn't he?! What other airs and graces does he put on?

Thanks silvery and arthritic - yes, at least he does seem to share with me...I'm so hyper-vigilant at the moment...

Trust I don't know if he is abusive.
But he is not helping at a time when you really have a lot to deal with.
Ask yourself whether life would not be easier without him.
Honestly - you have bigger things to think about than DS eating with his mouth open - which will only become a more determined behaviour the more hassle he gets about it.

cheers Fly I'd have to agree that trapping (internalising) such strong emotions could well lead to them erupting in disorganised ways like the panics attacks. Practice getting angry! I have never got angry at people in that way, you know aggressively like FW do, but I do get angry bout stuff, but I don't think enough! This feels like the sense of a volcano thats gonna erupt .. but I definitely did have to control my own responses from very young as extremely volatile FW extraordinaire father. Contain emotions tightly was the message, as clearly demo'd by very cold harsh, neglectful, NarcM with no empathy and lots of blame. So there's the thing, don't know how to say no, or spot manipulations, just felt bad with nowhere to take it. So its probably time to do thngs differently! as I keep doing it the same way, and thats quite obviously not working!

Used exactly that example at FP a coule of weeks back Charlotte, yes always 'we' in front of others, or even refers to himself only doing it... but then....

Well done for posting all that trust I do hope its helping to get it all out. I personally think its no bad thing to be hyper vigilant whilst you work thorugh these things! I hope the process of tackling things and receiving some apologies /learning from and making changes all round, will get to a place of more harmony for you all. Don't really want to comment on the 'is he a FW' too as I'm further behind you in that! ((hugs)) for the struggles. xx

Ugh just collected dc from fw. He instigated a conversation about money, implying that what I want is unreasonable since he has the kids a lot. 1 night and 2-3 teatimes, yet I'm the provider of all clothes, shoes, school dinners, swimming lessons.
Have agreed to a figure a month. He thn started a rant about the amount of money I'm 'raking in in tax credits' and wanting to know how much I get. I calmly told him i didn't have to disclose that.
He then started banging on saying I might have another 2 babies yet depending on who I 'take up with'. Was quite bemused and witheringly told him I was in control of my own body, thank you, I certainly do not want any more dc and anyone I am in a relationship with will take that on board. It is telling that he thinks I would do something as major as have more children because the man I'm with wants them, even when I do not.