They aren't worth it...

[Tasmania]

Why do some women end up in a relationship with guys - have kids with some even - who are not worth it?

I've met women who despite all the warning signals were completely blinded by... lust (can't be love, surely?). These were men who already showed signs of being abusive while dating.

Why don't people just turn their backs on them, and move away?

Not being controversial. Just wondering what goes on in people's head. My head is automatically guided by logic, and I don't know why, but I spot such guys from miles away, and just never tend to like them...

I don't think it's victim-blaming to mention that women who have grown up with parents who are controlling or toxic, or at the very least keep telling them that men are more important than women, might be easy prey for an abuser. One of the things often discussed on MN is that being in an abusive relationship longterm can lead to DC recreating the abuse patterns when they grow up and form couple-relationships of their own.

how about the OP telling us the specifics of what to spot and how to avoid the tactics of an abuser?

So that we can all learn and be grateful for her superior upbringing and logic.

btw, I'm stupid and have no idea about anything so I deserved my abusive relationship (which is a BIG lie).

SGB but whats it got to do with the abusive relationship then? Regardless of what background a woman has had, she does not ask for a relationship with an abuser!!! and a decent normal partner would not abuse her just because of her past, so lets talk about the abuser, instead of the woman's role in it.

How about easy prey for rape? She asked for it. Oh, well she's been raped many times before, she's looking for it, or primed for it. All it takes is a rapist! (which is what they are, rapists of the psyche, emotions and body)

Thanks plinkyplonks!

"Drama free" rings a bell... do you think that Hollywood (and sometimes, books) manipulates women to believe those relationships that are full of drama = passion? Whenever I watch those movies, I do think that... hey, that looks OK on screen, but is really bad news in real life.

That's sort of the reason I am not happy with young girls being into "Twilight", for example. Adult women may see more there, and not take it to heart, but girls often don't. Edward Cullen in real life (not a vampire, of course) would be just another possessive guy, but on screen / in the book he has that silent broodiness that girls seem to pine for. I do wonder how this will influence young girls in future.

I don't think it's as simple as being vulnerable to it because of childhood or low self-esteem, etc.

I can think of lots of perfectly well-balanced women, with happy childhoods, functional families and successful jobs who still put up with men who, IMO, are unworthy of them. Some of them are abusive, some are not, but all of them have a higher status than their wives who reinforce it through a multitude of different habits that society portrays as completely normal and even desirable.

Any woman who says she can't understand why women 'put up with it' but finds herself guilty of doing 51% or more of the domestic chores/childcare is potentially guilty of throwing stones from the proverbial glass house. One woman's equal relationship where she does her partner's laundry is another woman's unbalanced, sexist relationship. It's just a case of how far down the line is drawn.

I think in most cases of dysfunctional relationships, regardless of whether the victim is male or female, it's a simple case of not recognising what's happening. In most cases, the abuse/poor treatment starts so insidiously that it's not even recognised for what it is. It is a minor transgression that is easily overcome. And so the line in the sand shifts, almost imperceptibly. By the time things get serious, there have been countless imperceptible shifts, and the relationship has usually lasted long enough, and has enough commitments, that the emotional/practical/financial investment the lesser party feels it;s worth 'working it out', or 'trying again' especially if you've been conditioned over time to the see the transgression as normal or relatively minor.

And in some cases, a happy childhood can make you more vulnerable, as unless you have been 'taught' what signs to look out and the dynamics of abuse it's very easy to be confused by an abuser's behaviour and explanation and believe them when they it won't happen again, or it's because of their childhood and if you just support them things will get better. Worse still, is the clever abuser who stops doing the offending action so makes you feel like you've been listened to, only to change the behaviour subtly and control you in more subtle, manipulative ways.

It's very, very complicated.

Oh yeah I was manipulated into a violent relationship because I stupidly thought hey that looks OK on screen so it must be really good news in life

^^ Of course, in Hollywood / books, sugar happy romances with no drama makes for fairly boring plot lines , so I do get why those films / books often portray such "loving" relationships - whether that be Gone with the Wind or Twilight and many movies inbetween.

FairyFi: I am by no means calling you stupid, nor is it your fault that you were abused. Nor is it the fault of any woman that she is raped: no matter what she's wearing or how much she had to drink or where she was, etc.

The thing with abusers who intend to abuse a partner (rather than rapists who intend to strike once only) is that abusers tend to detect, and be attracted to, women who for whatever reason are more vulnerable. It's very common for a woman who has escaped one abusive relationship to have another one, simply because her boundaries etc have been damaged. EG, if the partner she escaped from was physically violent, she might be frightened of physical violence and therefore slower to notice that the new partner is controlling, passive-aggressive, financially abusive or whatever.

In general, though, one of the good things about MN is that women can talk about the early indicators that a man is going to be abusive, and share the knowledge, and help each other not to overlook danger signs, because the danger signs are usually there but they are small in the beginning.

*Follyfoot - I am not talking about you. I am seriously concerned about younger girls who do get obsessed with the ideals presented to them by books/movies that just do not work in real life. Ever seen a die-hard Twi-fan?

DC might or might not, have a look on other threads where DC are now protecting their own DC from these vile people.

It takes a lot of book reading (or sadly awful experience followed by realisations and insights, as well as bucketloads of bravery) to gain a knowledge of the coercions, blah blah blah, that go on under the veneer of an abusive relationship - it is death by a thousand paper cuts. It plays to human nature and people's good will and spirit of humanity and is not their fault, even if they have had apalling childhoods. The perpetrator is responsible, the victim has nothing to do with it ( cite rape again). The pepetrator will move on to another and another and another.

do you know how many women are routinely raped inside of their relationship???

FairyFi - Yes, I know that happens a lot. The Regina v Regina case of marital rape is the only one I remember from the one law course I did at uni (my memory of which is possibly the only reason I passed that course), and I was horrified to find out that up until that case not to long ago, marital rape was justified by law...

There have been many cases cited here and all over the places I have discussed these issues, of very happy ladies, in happy childhoods, well adjusted, very well educated, with positions of huge responsibility in work, and agreeing with Dahlen, that if you have not learnt the ways of the less than well intentioned for yourself, your father telling you, will definitely not protect you and will actually leave you open to it, and you cannot recognise it. Only once your eyes are opened, can you see it.

Good post Dahlen, thanks for taking the time to put it so eloquently

I have had a dv relationship.

I barely recognise myself from all the 'truisms'

I didn't have a bad childhood, i wasn't lacking in confidence, i'm educated. etc.

My ex didn't hit me for the 1st 3 years. We were best friends, spent all our time together and talked well into the night whilst laying in bed. we would go to sleep with one of our legs crossed over each other. [slushy emotiocom]

that's not to say there weren't signs (looking back with hindsight) he had no friends, he was very suspicious of others opinions and had a breath taking self righteousness.

He was on medication for delusions when the 1st punch reigned down. So i justified it. He was always drunk when he continued to do it. So i justified it. It was only when he started to do it sober did i run out of excuses.

I'm glad your twat radar is so finely tuned, that is the way it should be, and i hope my 3 daughters are equally as skilled at spotting them

However, i have a friend whom i met after leaving exdp. Over discussions about it over the years, she would comment that she would never have put up with it. Unfortunately we drifted after 7ish years and when we met up again 2 years ago, she admitted she had been in an emotionally abusive relationship. He had her totally head baffled (gaslighting) and she only knew she was being abused when her job (family support worker) sent her on a course for her job. She definately had a light bulb moment then. And was slightly more sympathetic/empathitic (sp?) after it had happened to her.

The fact that you have never experienced it- means you will never understand no matter how many people explain it to you.

It's like trying to get someone to feel how a broken heart feels without having your heart broke, or the agony of labour if you've never been through it. It can't be done.

I do think that TV and films influence people in part - it can give younger and impressionable people a reference for the role of men and women in those relationships. But I do think we get drawn to these films because we already believe those are the kind of relationships we believe in anyway. I think the biggest by far is your parents and the kind of relationship(s) they had when you were growing up. That's why I feel so strongly on women in abusive relationships (not easy I know) walking away especially when they have children.

I do think people are very defensive when they are in abusive relationships. People get into a bubble, think that it's an us vs. them scenario. I think 'outsiders' - be that family, friends, colleagues etc - trying to make someone see that their relationship is abusive or trying to 'label' their relationship as abusive (even that person may be doing no such thing!!) can just make people very defensive over their relationship.

'You can't possibly understand', 'he's different when he's around me' or comments over their intellect/stupidity ... I just think these are defensive mechanisms because deep down they know they deserve(d) better. Not to mention, when you do get out of the abusive relationship, there is some degree of embarrassment, guilt and shame - of how I could be so stupid, why couldn't see it... not realising that I just didn't have the perspective and life tools to deal with it.

But in these situations there is no point in apportioning blame - I don't see many here trying to apportion blame or saying its someone's fault for getting into an abusive relationship - so I don't really understand the tone of the responses here.

At the end of the day, there is little point in claiming your ex partner put you down, made you feel worthless etc when people are willing to do that to someone they haven't met for merely asking a question.

For me, it's about getting to the point where you recognise you deserve better & there is a better life beyond it. I couldn't imagine a life beyond my relationship because my relationship was my life and I had allowed it to define me. Breaking that was a huge weight off my shoulders, I learn't more about what I liked or didn't like - i got to love life again. But you can't make someone believe that.

I guess in your situation it's frustrating because you can see a relationship is going to end badly but unfortunately you are helpless to stop it.

It's interesting that upthread op admits she knows men that are known to their friends as being abusive and not someone a woman should go out with.

Are you still friends with these men op?
Are your male friends still friends with them?
Do you or your male friends tell women that are attracted to these men that they are known to be abusive, that you would not recommend another woman date them and cite examples of their previous abuse?

Because otherwise you are normalising the abuse aren't you? You're saying to those women that these men are fundamentally nice, good people who are worth spending time with and developing friendships/ relationships with. You are helping to hide abuse behind closed doors because publicly you are showing that these men aren't that bad as they are not ostracised, compelled to get support for their abusive behaviour, given 'tough love' or anything negative that should follow from being abusive.

How would you expect a woman who meets one of your good looking, charming, popular male friends to know he is abusive?

OP, this article was posted elsewhere on the site today

have a read of it and see how things can so badly wrong, no matter how much you think you might be able to spot a no-mark

HandbagCrab

No - not really friends with them. I stick to a handful of friends I know from uni - and don't really add more on top, to be perfectly honest. These were guys I used to know in my "clubbing days". Of course, there are some around me, I can't cut myself off from, although I suspect they would be crap husbands. You can't escape them in the male-dominated industry I'm in - and are prone to having tantrums like toddlers would. But those are merely colleagues, not friends.

I've told plenty of friends not to go for certain guys, which works very well with my closest friends - but that's because we are so close (almost like sisters) that we used to seek each other's approval before going out with anyone. And there were some guys who would have asked me out, had it not been for the intervention of my friends and vice versa. To guys, that may have looked "stuck up" and "snobby", but it was really just everyone looking out for each other, and knowing that your friend deserved better.

Back in "my days", I actually told some women (who did not happen to be friends) to leave some of those guys behind or not go out with them in the first place. However, this sometimes did not go down well (to the point of having abuse thrown into my face), as they often seemed to think you have ulterior motives for doing so. Therefore, after a while, you just give up... which is incredibly frustrating, as you've seen what happened before, and know what's going to happen next.

tasmania
You know what - I don´t believe you´re real. This has to be some absurd way of pisstaking ... or trolling?

You seem to have a rather cushy place in society, good job (telling people what to do, how stressful); you have a very distinct idea of your ideal husband, obviously some form of that came your way. You emphasize your logic, you don´t talk about feelings. You seem to have friends who can just fulfill you requirements, you don´t want any more ....
How on earth, if your life is just so Marie-Antoinette-ishly perfect, do you find the time and the idea to visit a site like this and start an oh-so-harmless thread like this? For human experimentation? How quickly do the protests come? ... Sorry, no, don´t think you´re real. You seem to be more like that Liz- Jones- character in the Daily Mail.

Oh, and two other things:

• Pray tell me, which is the culture that does not use "Thank you" and "Please". That would just be too good to know!
• Far too much mentioning of "Twighlight"! Is this marketing?! Don´t know the books, don´t know the movies, am just not interested. Where does your obsession come from?!

I don´t believe you´re real. This has to be some absurd way of pisstaking ... or trolling?

I'm with you!
Exactly the reason why I've stayed out after my initial twopeneth's worth of reply.

If someone had a tantrum at my work more than once I would expect them to be in disciplinary proceedings assuming it was stress related rather than aimed at a colleague in which case the first tantrum should be met with disciplinary proceedings.

If in your male dominated industry you indulge and expect toddler tantruming behaviour from male colleagues, why would you think others would expect better from the men in their relationships? Again, if these men were sacked for behaving like this or ostracised by their colleagues it may give the women that get tangled up with them a fighting chance of realising these men aren't good before things get complicated via marriage and children.

Any

Most of those "early warning signs" in that article embodies what I seriously do not like in people, and have, very, very little patience for.

The No. 1 point is "A Blamer". My grandfather - a very catholic man, so pardon the usage of "God" - used to say: "God gave you everything you need to succeed in life. Two legs, to arms, and a head that is hopefully filled with a brain. Don't blame anyone else when things go wrong. Simply find out how to make things right. You'll save time that way."

So my patience would already wane there, and it seems to just get worse as you go down the list. The last one, "Rusher", would have scared me off as I did have a bit of a fear of commitment.

"Sarcasm" is the only one I wouldn't have minded - but my idea of sarcasm is very different from that quoted in the article...

It's probably a man tbh!

HandbagCrab

Disciplinary proceedings don't apply to very senior management (i.e. someone with "Chief" assigned to their name) - read about Fred Goodwin. He would have fallen into the tantrum category, and nobody stopped him from destroying the country's finances! So you expect me to do this singlehandedly?!? I did complain about men twice to HR (at two different companies). Those men actually complained back, and HR (in both cases a woman) listened to them rather than me, because they were more senior, and in the second case, he used to buy her very expensive presents. They made my life hell, but in each case, I just moved to another firm.

My colleagues knew about this, and were very understanding. But this was around the time that everyone was shit-scared of losing their jobs. And yes, I would sack them if I was at the top. But I wasn't back then, and the company I'm in now is - thank God - a lot better than that the ones I was in before.

P.S.: Those men (and the particular women in HR) are still on my blacklist. I do think that one day, I will get my revenge...

I too think this is basically trolling. OP did not ask, what are the early warning signs or I want to understand this so DD does not go through it.
it basically said, I know how to avoid this because I am so logical, why isn't everyone like me?

this idea what women are partly to blame (encapsulated in language such as bad choices) for what happens to them in these relationships plays very much into the hands of the abusers who say well I do this to you because of who you are and you chose this.

women who have been in an abusive relationship or who are in one really don't need anyone else telling them that they somehow, unwittingly or otherwise brought this on themselves, they are already being blamed by their abuser and they do a fair amount of beating themselves up over it too.

tas the fact that you are in no way prepared to admit that you have worded your OP better suggests you are just out to stir it. you can play the innocent all you like for a lot of the women who have posted here this kind of attitude will be behaviour they are all too familiar with.