Anyone there please? DP admitted to kissing someone in the pub.

[Owlfright]

I've namechanged as I'm worried my usual name is too recognisable to family and friends.

If there is anyone awake who could hold my hand I would be so grateful.

A friend told me this evening (sat) that last night my DP had been seen "snogging" another woman in a pub. He was out with some friends.

I've confronted him and he initially denied it, but then admitted it.

I'm not sure there is a word for how I feel- shell shocked shocked, sick, panicky.

We've been together 9 years and have a fabulous 5yo DS together. Things have been tense for a few weeks following a disagreement between us, but I fully expected us to be able to work through it.

He has said sorry, but I'm ashamed to admit he doesn't seem very sorry. I confronted him around 11.30pm fully expecting him to be full of remorse but he just kept referring to the fact that we've not been getting on.

I felt so angry that I had to get out of the house (DS is staying with my mum), I'm due to collect him in the morning. I drove round for a bit, and for some reason checked myself into a cheap hotel.

I'm there now, unable to sleep and frantic with not knowing what to do.

I know it's a cliche and people say its not so important but I'm petrified of turning our sweet loving little boy's world upside down. He adores his dad and would be devastated if he was to leave.

I can't believe this is happening, I don't know what to do.

I'm ok, in a British not ok at all but trying to be sort if way. I'm reading everything but am gathering my thoughts before I can reply properly, I'm so confused I wish I could turn my brain off for a bit.

DS surprised me by bursting into tearsto find daddy not in the bed again, .

I said to DP this morning that if he had made a decision to go for a bit, could he tell DS before school in a breezy way that he was working away tonight (which he does ocassionally), so wouldn't see DS tonight or in the morning, but he would pick him up from school tomorrow.

He said he hadn't confirmed things with his friend yet, and hadnt made up his mind. This 'making up his mind took months before', I'm too petrified to rush him.

Sorry terrible spelling!

I've read most of the thread and feel so sorry that he has done this to you and your DS. If my DH kissed a woman in the pub and was truly sorry I would most likely forgive him but if he was acting how your DP I would be just as hurt and confused as you, I know it's easy to say but I would never be able to forgive him because he won't be sorry till it's to late.

I hope you kick him out and show your DS it is not acceptable to treat women like this let alone the mother of his child. I am holding your hand.

ds no doubt will be feeling the exact same way as you, like you are constantly waiting for the axe to fall and if you can just find the right thing to do or say it might stop it happening completely.

I don't think he is really deciding whether to go or not. Are you sure the friend would even have him? 6 months is a long time to put up with someone living off you in your house. Is it not more likely he is just manipulating this situation to his advantage? Now your ds is becoming upset by it the pressure is intensifying even more on you to STFU about any complaint you have and give in to being a doormat. A father who cared about the child would not behave like this, creating this ridiculous limbo.

I think you should tell him to go but I completely understand if you are too afraid or upset to do that. completely understand it, I absolutely couldn't do it and eventually he left when he found someone else to sponge off who was much freer (no baby to care for) to make him her every focus.

Christmas is 5 weeks away so if dp is dawdling over what to do he possibly banks on the fact you'll be keen to make up before then.

I don't think I saw the earlier thread but if at the root of all this is work/family security vs hobby, it's been brewing a while and a big cornerstone of your relationship. DS doesn't just need fun daddy, he needs dad who looks out for his family. Not a person who thinks mum is a stifling killjoy brought to heel with casual snogs and tittle tattling to her family.

I think maybe you should sit down, put him completely out of your mind and think about what your needs are and where your boundaries are in relationships as an abstract concept. Maybe if it helps think in terms of "in an ideal world", those things should not be ideals but expectations but I suspect they will feel like ideals in your current situation. When you have done that tick off how many he actually provides and also mark where he fails miserably to provide for your needs.

You can do this on behalf of ds too. What he needs from a father.

It might help you to really understand how much you are missing from this man.

And I might also take my own advice about that!!! Ha!

dear owl, I'm so sad and angry for you. Did you read my "kicked me when i'm down" thread? Please have a quick look as i truly was in your shoes three years ago and I want to prevent you heading down the same road.

What strikes me is that he's diverting attention onto himself all the time. Mine did that. His totally unacceptable behaviour was somehow my fault, all about his work needs, not doing anything to man up to the issue. All this talk about moving out is NOT the point. You're suffering is the point, what's he doing about that? Changing the subject that's what!

And your little DS is picking up on all this, which could be very damaging.

I totally understand how scary this is btw, but the MN girls here are so supportive, they'll help you work it out.

Can you get away for a bit, with your DS?

More hugs

offred I'll be taking that advice too

Have you made that call to arrange counselling yet ?

Owl, I am very worried about you. I agree with Offred. What worries me is your writing this:

"I think the anger and then the not talking for several weeks tipped him over into a place where he began to love me less. We've agreed that terrible communication and lack of intimacy were and are a big problem, he accepted his share of the blame. I'm furious with myself for letting the silence continue for so long, I so wish I had realised it was risking our relationship. Looking back it seems so stupid."

Do you see what he is doing? He is escalating the problems in your relationship to a point where you are so afraid of losing him, you will forgive him for all the earlier things you were so reasonably upset with him about. You are already taking on blame for things when you did nothing wrong at all.

Your previous argument was not stupid. You had a whole thread of many women who agreed with you that you were not wrong to be upset with your husband's plans, they were ridiculous.

Do you really want to stay with someone who subjects you to this emotional blackmail? Do you realise how very wrong it is for a partner to love you less because of a perfectly valid argument?

I am not judging you, please believe me, but I am very worried for you. I would really urge you to get some counseling, talk to some people, read some self-help books, anything that will help you refocus your attention on what is best for YOU and DS.

You are obviously a very loving person. I just think you should love yourself a lot more and this awful man a lot less. He doesn't deserve you.

Sorry, im reposting this, as it applies to Owl situation.

It started via an old girlfriend from 20 yrs back contacting my then P, i encouraged the contact, so it started, one day he was asleep, and my instincts nagged at me, so i checked the messages on his phone, well i was right, sexual and loving texts from her, i didnt see ones from him to her, we fought, i decided to forgive, HUGE MISTAKE, because from then on he turned into a selfish, bratish, horrid man, i had PND, it got so much worse, to the point waking up was a chore, much less raise a child, who was just a bit more than 1 at this point. This woman would text him all the time, and even lie about who was texting, it went on for 8 LONG MONTHS, he was depressed by now too (well boo hoo) i tried a suicide attempt, he left me that same day, then sent me a text saying "Goodnight Sexy, cant wait to say that in person in 2 days time" i called him he said it was me, but where was he in 2 days, oh yeah, 300 mile away with the other woman, leaving me with 100 quid for me and the DD, did he call to ask about his child, did he heck, did he have a go at me saying i was using our DD as a weapon, cause i dared to say how much she missed him, oh heck yeah he did. we had a fight after he returned (egg on his face coz this woman was married and planned to stay that way) saying that we only got engaged to "shut me up", he tried getting back together with me, but i hurt so much i just couldnt be near him again. Hes a half arsed parent, sees DD once every 6 weeks, took him 2 years to pay for her, now he knows im not being made a mug of.

I've been single for 3 years now, prefer to raise my child, and im doing my very best, we happy together.

So Owl think about what you really want?, because your child will be just fine, being a good mummy means being healthy in the head, he doesnt make you healthy does he? He, if actually sorry needs to know what losing you for good means, coz, oh boy, does my ex know now, if he leaves and doesnt come back then he obviously didnt love you enough to make it work, if he comes back and you want to make it work, then let the strong woman out, and let him know, that he does it ever again then hes gone, dont be a mug and be a women and mummy, coz i went through hell, and i can tell you, the strength i've gained was worth it.

Back on page 1 Owlfright you said when you were growing up your mum was "very emotional and highly strung" but you didn't want to be like that for DS.

That doesn't mean letting dp trample over you for a quiet life, does it.

You are all keeping me going, thank you so much. I am going to call a counsellor who I saw once in the past right now. Feels scary as its the first step towards getting out of this situation proactively, myself.

I'm taking everything in that is being posted. Something that keeps popping into my head is that many posters are sure he is plotting and calculating all this.

I don't know how to explain properly bug I struggle to believe that he is capable of that sort of very clever manipulation. Not bacause he's not unkind enough to do it, but because I don't see him as perceptive or even clever enough to manipulate me SI cleverly.

Is it possible he's just an almighty prick, and behaving like a prick- rather than cleverly manipulating me?

if that thought crosses your mind then it has to have come from somewhere, don't you think?

someone on my thread taught me that truly manipulative people don't necessarily do it consciously , it's in their nature. Oh and you can be thick and manipulative, they're not mutually exclusive

I think analysing him is a waster of time, and that's what wore me down to illness, so protect yourself from that. Go by his acts not your explanations of them, as the wise ones here told me.

Counselling is a great idea to establish your boundaries. Work from there, that's what I'm trying to do and already feel ten times stronger than just four days ago.
hugs

Of course it's possible. Is that any more acceptable though ? Who wants to be partnered with a massive prick, who won't ever accept he is behaving like a massive prick ?

You wouldn't sign yourself up for a life with such a person, would you ?

"waste" not "waster"

I don't think it is necessarily conscious manipulation no, not many people are actually evil like that but it is more often just that they have a set of beliefs and principles in life that cause them to behave in a predictable pattern in response to events in life. It is that way with my ex, he is very damaged from childhood and I suspect narcissistic.

it certainly is no excuse nor any justification...and in no way should make you feel any of it is your fault, or if you could just behave in a certain way, it would "cure" them of their destructive ways

With my x there is also a measure of having recognised some of those beliefs and principles exist and are harmful and made a choice not to do anything about them because that would involve sacrifice of some of the things he enjoys... I expect, if your DP IS like what I think, he will be a mix of conscious and subconscious motivations and manipulations. That's why I think it is more helpful not to analyse too deeply why someone behaves in frankly what IS an abusive way, but focus only on that it is abusive when it is actually happening to you. Women's aid can be really useful because they can take on the burden of safely thinking about all the whys and whats with you.

I agree, the kind of manipulation that I think he's doing doesn't need to be done consciously. It doesn't need to be the work of an evil genius or anything.

I mean, even toddlers know that if they make you laugh or make you worried you will stop being angry with them...

I think he is probably repeating history here. You said last time he left, it was after you were asking him to help out more (a perfectly reasonable request). He left and made this huge drama, and I imagine that as a result you were pretty happy when he came back and dropped the whole issue that started everything.

Isn't this the same thing? You call him up on his plans which, again, means him having to do something he doesn't want to do and he creates this whole drama so you will forget about it.

It doesn't mean he's always evil or anything like that. It just means he knows how to get out of trouble and manipulate things so nothing is ever his fault.

And if you take him back, and drop the problem you had with him (which it seems you already are leaning toward) then I'm pretty sure you can expect him to do this again, and again, and again. Unless, of course, you bow down to his every wish. Either way, it is no way to live, and not a good dynamic for your DS to grow up in.

This is why I am worried for you. I'm so glad you are calling a counselor, I hope you are able to see her soon.

Thank you, I feel clearer about the conscious manipulation thing.

I can see it is partly irrelevant whether it's conscious and planned. At the end of the day it is what it is, the reasons behind it don't change the fact that he is being horrible.

I just wanted to know because some posts suggested to me that it was planned, and I can't see that being the case...... I was struggling to think of him being clever enough to do it, which was confusing me.....

Yes, it absolutely is history repeating itself. From both of us , it's like a scripted play and I am trying but failing to play a different part this time.

It's a relationship dance Owl, most relationships have them and it's up to you to change it. You cannot change him, the only thing you can change is you and how you react to him. Counselling will be good for you, it will help you understand how your childhood has affected how you respond to these situations and why you put up with this crap. Not many of us can change overnight, baby steps are sometimes the way forward.

Look at a man's actions, not his words and remember this man is a significant role model for your DS, is this how you want your DS to behave?

Lashing out spontaneously when upset isn't necessarily planned or calculated.
Picking your weak spot is.
Judging himself thwarted in a long held desire or dream, (however selfish or impractical).
It wouldn't take much to even fleetingly consider, how do I get her to change her mind? even before any resentment of perceived withdrawal of intimacy.

What's the worst turmoil he ever put you through? Yes, leaving you when DS was 6 months. As dreamingbohemian just said, it doesn't take an evil genius, I think you can almost hear the cogs turning in his mind. Not a huge leap to manipulating you, was it.

copying this from my thread, where I replied to you:

That's great you called a counsellor, but you don't need fixing. UNLESS you decide, like I did, to put up with it a day longer.
But I'll copy this to your own thread otherwise we could miss each other.
Hang in there, the support here will help you get through until your appointment. Keep posting, even if you think you're questions are crazy, stupid, etc. no-one here will think that.

The fact that you're here show's you have strength, you'll see it's rock solid once you stop trying to understand his behaviour that's exactly what someone manipulative (conscious or not) wants you to do, it lets them off the hook. That has to stop, you'd be amazed the energy that comes back when you pull back from that.

xx