not violent but emotionally abusive?

[thatsnotmynamereally]

I am just wondering how obvious it must be to the rest of the world that DH is a manipulative d*ckhead? and why do I go along with it? Sorry-- this is a rather long rant but I just want to write it down so I'll stop going over it all in my head!

OK. Today he asked me if I'd go into his office with him, basically to keep him company as he'd be the only one there, he runs his own firm with a few others but they don't have much work at the moment so don't go in very often. DH likes to have people around him to talk to. I said no because I wanted to get some things done, ie laundry, sorting out some ISA transfers which should have been done two weeks ago, Ocado order, garden etc-- basically the things I normally do at home as I'm not working, I used to work full time but stopped about 3 years ago.

For the past week we had his brother (divorced) and BIL's little girl (5) staying with us. And it ended up being a total pain for me as I end up waiting on them hand and foot, basically just trying to be a good host but BIL is very hard work and never says thank you for anything. I really hadn't wanted them to come for various reasons mainly because the last time they stayed he (BIL) seemed so ungrateful and I ended up planning activities and having to go around with them (and pay for them FFS) and this time was about the same, but it was my DD's half term as well, she's applying to uni right now, and I'd looked forward to a nice calm week. We got through the week and all was OK not great-- but today was my first day at home since then.

Anyway DH was really annoyed (angry) that I didn't want to go in with him, but I stood my ground, he suggested that I go in and do some jobhunting but I said I wanted to stay and clean the house. So he went in not until about 12:00, did some work, I did some things around the house, he called at about 5:00 to be picked up at the tube (I have to be available for tube-pickups at all times as he doesn't like to take the bus, we have two cars so he could drive himself and park the car away from the tube what I did when I worked full time, the pick-ups are a real pain for me but that is another issue) and when we got into the house he had a go at me because it wasn't clean enough to be fair I had left the sitting room exactly how he'd left it that morning including his toast plate and mug on the table... but I had asked him to bring those things over and he hadn't this was after I'd had a total b%^ch session with him about how his brother had left cereal bowls etc all over and he'd agreed that it was not on!

So... I was planning on going to see fireworks with a friend he knew about this as I'd phoned him earlier I invited him (even though I really didn't want him to come as I wanted to have a good chat with friend), he said he might like to, after dinner I said OK dinner's almost ready I'd made sausages fried up with onions, plus cauliflower cheese, green beans, and the leftover roasted veges plus yorkshire puddings from a sumptuous roast dinner I'd made yesterday. Now I thought that was a pretty good effort. I brought it over to him, he immediately complained that the gravy was too thin, I was mildly annoyed and said that it wasn't but offered to remake it (Bisto, I despise it but he and kids love it) but he said too late, he'd already poured it, then he and DD and I all had our dinners, I poured the two of us a glass of red wine, asked if he was coming to the fireworks, he started complaining about the dinner which he said was very poor... and complained about the wine which was an expensive red I'd bought the day before and told him about because it was on a really good discount, I thought it was lovely but he was just looking for a reason to complain, he asked why there was no white wine in the house true, there wasn't but ?! I hadn't had time to re-stock! Not the end of the world? And we tend to drink red this time of year?! Sorry but I get so defensive, this has got to be part of the problem he started going on about how awful the dinner was, DD had a real go at him for being horrible to me and she told me the dinner was fine-- but what can you say if someone tells you that the dinner which you've cooked, which they've mostly eaten, is rubbish? I said, (a bit sarcastically but mainly to smooth things over), OK I'm sorry the dinner was sh*te and I'll never cook sausages again... blah blah... then he said, well you'd better get along to the fireworks and I said I'd bring a bottle of white wine back with me.

So I went off to the fireworks, a short walk away, met up with my friend, had a lovely time watching fireworks, which started much later than they'd said and went on for a fairly long time. We had such a nice chat and we decided we should go for a quick drink after to celebrate my birthday which was a week ago. So against my better judgement we did and had a lovely time, shared a bottle of wine and generally had a chat and caught up. Of course DH was annoyed that I hadn't turned up, called about 9:15 and asked where I was , I told him was just leaving, got a bottle of wine at Sainsburys on the way back and got home well before 10:00-- not unreasonably late.

More back story here it was my birthday a week ago on the Friday that BIL was due to turn up to the train station at 9:30PM and he needed picking up from the station in the car (he's got health issues, couldn't ask him to get a taxi) so that scuppered any thoughts of an evening glass of fizz or celebration, not really too dramatic about it but knowing we had to get ready for him coming which we weren't looking forward to sort of ruined the day. DH thought we should do something to celebrate my birthday, I said that I was just fine not doing too much but he insisted so we decided to go to Bicester outlet mall... just for a fun day out, no serious shopping or anything. It's about an hours drive from us and we got there it was packed, so packed that we couldn't find a parking space and DH got furious and drove really fast and angry up and down the parking lanes people jumped out of the way I of course got really upset by this, then DH found a parking attendant and shouted at him for 10 minutes when the guy suggested we park by the train station. So we drove away with him shouting that he was never going back there OK it was annoying not to find a space but FFS supposed to be my birthday celebration! Anyway we ended up having lunch at a restaurant but not fun and I wasn't 'allowed' to mention Bicester and how unreasonable he'd been. Anyway last night I thought I should have been able to say to DH that my friend was taking me for a birthday drink without me feeling guilty about it, as I'd had no other acknowledgement!

DH went to bed just before I got in last night, I went up to see him and he said I'd ruined everything, blah blah, so I said OK fine and went downstairs to sleep on the sofa. Now I'm awake at 4AM and rather furious with the situation. Sorry if it's TMI but just wanted to write it down... so many more examples like this seem to be happening on a daily basis... I need to do something but I'm not sure what! Don't want to make any effort to rock the boat until lovely DD, who is very understanding and knows that DH gets into these moods, gets her uni place sorted out...

I was surprised to see someone accusing you of being passive-aggressive juggling. I don't think you are - from what I can see, you don't find it easy to 'say your piece', which is very different to passive-aggressive. You express yourself graciously imo.

Heh, Juggling, I didn't say it would be easy reading

Thanks for your friendly support springy
And good night all.

good night, juggling

The tone of your posts juggling and the "and helpful"

Offred, i think you've got the wrong end of the stick.

Based on what springy?

Sure I was having a wee dig adding and helpful because I think when someone like me posts about their own situation it is more encouraging for me to read replies that are supportive and helpful, even when they are also challenging. People who are already living in border-line abusive relationships don't need to be hit over the head with a broom-stick or whatever.

Any other examples Offred ? - because citing "the tone" of my posts doesn't add much to the clarity of the situation. I guess I do have my own writing/ posting style and I can be slightly sarki sometimes, especially when responding to someone saying I'm "talking bollocks" when it's obvious most of what I've contributed here comes from my own experience.

How is everyone doing this morning ?

Is it 'having a dig' to request that people are 'helpful'? I would have thought you were being clear, not having a dig.

I'm not doing at all well this morning Juggling. horrid dizzy/vom bug, as you asked

Is that not the very definition of passive aggressive juggling? (The whole lot, sark, tone, italics)

The fact you said it in italics addressed to someone else is entirely that and perhaps it is useful to remind you that you are not the authority on what is helpful. It is only your opinion. The reason passive aggressive style is irritating behaviour is because it doesn't give the accused an option to defend themselves, it is manipulative in trying to provoke and also be seen to be rising above a confrontation.

Sometimes I use italics instead of bold to make my meaning clearer - is that a big deal ?

I was very straight in saying I was offended when early on you said I was "talking bollocks" about my own experience. You have made no response to that, and no apology.

I'm always aware that my comments are my own opinion, and think I'm quite consistent in making that clear in my posts.

Why would I apologise? I have responded pages ago.

It isn't the italics to make it clearer. It is the passive aggression.

And I didn't say your own experience was bollocks, I said the conclusions you appear to have drawn from it about what is said on mumsnet and what support is available for women in abusive relationships is bollocks.

Hope you feel better soon springy

What do you think I said about the support available to women in abusive relationships Offred ? I'm pretty certain I never made a comment on that, as I'm well aware that much support is available. ( Italics purely for emphasis and clarity - and to show the sort of way I tend to use them )

You said you think "all women need to respect each others choices more."

This quote and the rest of the post is what I was responding to.

Because women do acknowledge it is hard to leave, what people offering proper support don't do is promote staying, they frequently support women who do stay for long periods through extremely difficult situations; violence, losing children etc. You seem to imply you want women to "acknowledge" it is sometimes better to stay with an abusive man. You express further on staying doesn't always compound damage to children. Supporting a woman who stays is a totally different thing to saying it is sometimes better to stay. I was saying you were talking bollocks in your assertion that presenting leaving the abuse as the best thing to do means women who stay do not get support with staying. They do and if it is your assertion that staying is the better option in some cases explain how that works rather than focusing criticism on support services and peer group support that has helped many people.

OK, Well as I've said before I think staying with your partner is sometimes the better option than leaving entirely depending on the circumstances ie. If there is no abuse perhaps you'd agree it could be good to stay in the relationship ?

From there I guess I just feel things are less black and white than is sometimes appreciated. How extreme does behaviour have to be to constitute being abusive ? How often does a woman forgive and forget bad behavior from her partner ?

And IIRC it wasn't so much staying that I said wouldn't compound damage to children as discussing situations and family dynamics with them. I talk about lots of things with my DC's and was defending this approach.

I have said very little on the thread about whether and when women should stay or go. That is something that, with support from others, only they can decide.

I have been interested to explore these areas with others here, and to share my thoughts that women find themselves with complex dilemma's when deciding what is best for themselves and others.

But it isn't if there is any abuse. It doesn't depend on the level of the abuse. Abuse has a very clear definition. If it is your assertion it is sometimes better to stay with someone abusive because "it's not like he hits me or anything" then explain how that is good advice to give others. The point of "LTB" advice is getting away from the abuse not necessarily the partner immediately and it is the ideal, the actual support tends to be much more pragmatic and there are good reasons why the advice is never "staying is sometimes better".

The point about compounding damage is that talking a child through living in an abusive relationship where the abuse is not ever challenged and nothing is done about it compounds the damage, which it does, damage which may not be apparent for many many years. Parents are often fooled because their children are happy but actually being happy isn't the main concern it is very wrong to be happy about living with abusive parent/s, the appropriate reaction is not happiness and happiness is part of the damage.

If there is no abuse the question is irrelevant btw. If there is no abuse there is no bastard is there? There is simply do you both want to stay together and are you willing to work on improving the relationship? If one answers no then split up.

Abuse is about a disparity of power within a relationship. It is possible for a person to do an abusive thing within a relationship without the relationship being abusive itself because the appropriate response of the equal partner is allowed. In abusive relationships the abuser can do extremely subtle actual things but the positions of power are unequal because of his/her choice or "beliefs".

It is not my assertion that it is sometimes better to stay with someone who is abusive.

Nevertheless I think women face complex dilemma's in their relationships.

Then why offended by LTB?

From what I remember the only thing I said I was offended by was "You're talking bollocks" - but OK I'll accept it was my mis-represented opinions and not my life experience you were trashing.

< checks post for passive aggressive tones - thinks she might find some but posts anyway ! >

Everyone would agree people face complex dilemmas within relationships (not specific to women). Whether or not it is good advice to give that staying in an abusive relationship is sometimes the better choice is not a complex issue. There is a difference between support and advice and support is still there for victims who can't or choose not to follow that advice to get separation from the abuse.

As I said before if it isn't about abuse then LTB doesn't even apply and actually probably no-one should give advice about whether to stay or go, it should be down to choice. Advice is needed for victims of abuse because of the effect of the abuse.