not violent but emotionally abusive?

[thatsnotmynamereally]

I am just wondering how obvious it must be to the rest of the world that DH is a manipulative d*ckhead? and why do I go along with it? Sorry-- this is a rather long rant but I just want to write it down so I'll stop going over it all in my head!

OK. Today he asked me if I'd go into his office with him, basically to keep him company as he'd be the only one there, he runs his own firm with a few others but they don't have much work at the moment so don't go in very often. DH likes to have people around him to talk to. I said no because I wanted to get some things done, ie laundry, sorting out some ISA transfers which should have been done two weeks ago, Ocado order, garden etc-- basically the things I normally do at home as I'm not working, I used to work full time but stopped about 3 years ago.

For the past week we had his brother (divorced) and BIL's little girl (5) staying with us. And it ended up being a total pain for me as I end up waiting on them hand and foot, basically just trying to be a good host but BIL is very hard work and never says thank you for anything. I really hadn't wanted them to come for various reasons mainly because the last time they stayed he (BIL) seemed so ungrateful and I ended up planning activities and having to go around with them (and pay for them FFS) and this time was about the same, but it was my DD's half term as well, she's applying to uni right now, and I'd looked forward to a nice calm week. We got through the week and all was OK not great-- but today was my first day at home since then.

Anyway DH was really annoyed (angry) that I didn't want to go in with him, but I stood my ground, he suggested that I go in and do some jobhunting but I said I wanted to stay and clean the house. So he went in not until about 12:00, did some work, I did some things around the house, he called at about 5:00 to be picked up at the tube (I have to be available for tube-pickups at all times as he doesn't like to take the bus, we have two cars so he could drive himself and park the car away from the tube what I did when I worked full time, the pick-ups are a real pain for me but that is another issue) and when we got into the house he had a go at me because it wasn't clean enough to be fair I had left the sitting room exactly how he'd left it that morning including his toast plate and mug on the table... but I had asked him to bring those things over and he hadn't this was after I'd had a total b%^ch session with him about how his brother had left cereal bowls etc all over and he'd agreed that it was not on!

So... I was planning on going to see fireworks with a friend he knew about this as I'd phoned him earlier I invited him (even though I really didn't want him to come as I wanted to have a good chat with friend), he said he might like to, after dinner I said OK dinner's almost ready I'd made sausages fried up with onions, plus cauliflower cheese, green beans, and the leftover roasted veges plus yorkshire puddings from a sumptuous roast dinner I'd made yesterday. Now I thought that was a pretty good effort. I brought it over to him, he immediately complained that the gravy was too thin, I was mildly annoyed and said that it wasn't but offered to remake it (Bisto, I despise it but he and kids love it) but he said too late, he'd already poured it, then he and DD and I all had our dinners, I poured the two of us a glass of red wine, asked if he was coming to the fireworks, he started complaining about the dinner which he said was very poor... and complained about the wine which was an expensive red I'd bought the day before and told him about because it was on a really good discount, I thought it was lovely but he was just looking for a reason to complain, he asked why there was no white wine in the house true, there wasn't but ?! I hadn't had time to re-stock! Not the end of the world? And we tend to drink red this time of year?! Sorry but I get so defensive, this has got to be part of the problem he started going on about how awful the dinner was, DD had a real go at him for being horrible to me and she told me the dinner was fine-- but what can you say if someone tells you that the dinner which you've cooked, which they've mostly eaten, is rubbish? I said, (a bit sarcastically but mainly to smooth things over), OK I'm sorry the dinner was sh*te and I'll never cook sausages again... blah blah... then he said, well you'd better get along to the fireworks and I said I'd bring a bottle of white wine back with me.

So I went off to the fireworks, a short walk away, met up with my friend, had a lovely time watching fireworks, which started much later than they'd said and went on for a fairly long time. We had such a nice chat and we decided we should go for a quick drink after to celebrate my birthday which was a week ago. So against my better judgement we did and had a lovely time, shared a bottle of wine and generally had a chat and caught up. Of course DH was annoyed that I hadn't turned up, called about 9:15 and asked where I was , I told him was just leaving, got a bottle of wine at Sainsburys on the way back and got home well before 10:00-- not unreasonably late.

More back story here it was my birthday a week ago on the Friday that BIL was due to turn up to the train station at 9:30PM and he needed picking up from the station in the car (he's got health issues, couldn't ask him to get a taxi) so that scuppered any thoughts of an evening glass of fizz or celebration, not really too dramatic about it but knowing we had to get ready for him coming which we weren't looking forward to sort of ruined the day. DH thought we should do something to celebrate my birthday, I said that I was just fine not doing too much but he insisted so we decided to go to Bicester outlet mall... just for a fun day out, no serious shopping or anything. It's about an hours drive from us and we got there it was packed, so packed that we couldn't find a parking space and DH got furious and drove really fast and angry up and down the parking lanes people jumped out of the way I of course got really upset by this, then DH found a parking attendant and shouted at him for 10 minutes when the guy suggested we park by the train station. So we drove away with him shouting that he was never going back there OK it was annoying not to find a space but FFS supposed to be my birthday celebration! Anyway we ended up having lunch at a restaurant but not fun and I wasn't 'allowed' to mention Bicester and how unreasonable he'd been. Anyway last night I thought I should have been able to say to DH that my friend was taking me for a birthday drink without me feeling guilty about it, as I'd had no other acknowledgement!

DH went to bed just before I got in last night, I went up to see him and he said I'd ruined everything, blah blah, so I said OK fine and went downstairs to sleep on the sofa. Now I'm awake at 4AM and rather furious with the situation. Sorry if it's TMI but just wanted to write it down... so many more examples like this seem to be happening on a daily basis... I need to do something but I'm not sure what! Don't want to make any effort to rock the boat until lovely DD, who is very understanding and knows that DH gets into these moods, gets her uni place sorted out...

What have you both taught your daughter about relationships; two words here suffice - damaging lessons. How would you feel if she were to choose a man like her Dad for a husband?. You've both taught her that this treatment of you up till now is somehow acceptable to you. That is how she sees it.

What has kept you within this, the forlorn hope that if you hung around he would somehow change for the better?. I think you do need to ask yourself why you have gone along with this to date and what you get from this relationship because some need of yours has been met.

I suppose I can thank my dad for turning me into a feminist. I used to fight my mum's corner - until she begged me to stop because it was making things worse meanwhile dad would be feigning a heart attack in the background, caused by me, of course. So I'd sit in my room fuming while he continued to call her a useless, bloody idiot.

You don't forget stuff like that, ever.

It looks like you've been his nursemaid - and probably enjoyed it, thought you did a good job. How much of what you've done has infantilised him? The family joke: look what a silly, unreasonable, nasty man your dad is - but look how well I care for him, keep him sweet .

You are both culpable. Your poor kids.

Hey OP hope you are not freaking out that we all think it isn't acceptable.

I lived with an EA "4th child" for too long and finally saw the light when my DC were at the same stage as yours. My FWH tried to stall me leaving by saying I would ruin the DC's academic careers, they would drop grades and botch their UCAS applications etc. Guess what? they didn't! They all said it was a better atmosphere with us apart and no rowing. They had hated the sniping and arguing and tension. Not one has dropped a grade yet, and they are happy well adjusted teenagers who give as good as they get. The DDs take no crap from anyone including me! Don't use them as an excuse for staying if it is just fear holding you back. It will all be fine! Really!!

juggling - that's true - it was an unfair thing to say. No-one is compounding the damage on those kids more than their father. I understand the OP is doing her very best, and his treatment of her is his fault.

However, there's no way those kids are going to walk away and create healthy, respectful relationships themselves, if the role models they are taught by do not have one themselves.

I said you are talking bollocks about how there is no support for people who can't leave or choose to stay. You are talking bollocks because there is. What there isn't support for is the idea that this is a better choice. Because it never is.

I think I've dug myself into a hole here... I don't mean to excuse or justify what he's doing or my reaction to it. Despite my complaints here the kids are not 'damaged', it was a mistake to mention them at all, reason for mentioning that poem was not to justify or joke about it but that it is not a new problem and it struck a chord. BTW I think that the poem is ironic as in... don't take at face value! Sorry.

Ah, but I think you'll find I never said that Offred

And I'd say it obviously is better for some women to stay in their partnerships with the father of their children - but of course, depending on circumstances

My mum is a good person thats and I am sure you are too. I don't imagine any mother sets out wanting to bring up her children with an emotionally abusive man and I'm sure if they had their time again they would choose another father for their dc. I'm sure my parents meant me no harm when they involved me in their marriage difficulties. But as a child and a teenager, what advice could I really give? Now I'm an adult they don't want to hear my advice, which speaks volumes.

dc only have one chance at growing up. If they are lucky, like me, they will be able to break some of the cycle of abuse through good fortune and hard work. I've spent 1000s on counselling and it's worked partially. My dh is a very patient and kind man which helps enormously. I only really realised the real decisions my mother made once I became a mother myself. Until that point I had not realised how inadequate the parenting I had was.

My ds may feel in the future that I had fucked him up too. But it won't be because he felt second fiddle to an emotionally abusive, domineering father. Because that would be something I could do something about.

It isn't if there is abuse. Not ever if there is abuse.

I don't see women not respecting other women's choices. I see women all the time supporting choices to stay just not agreeing with them. What you said is based on a false definition of what constitutes respect.

Sometimes it can be difficult for a woman to know for sure if she is in an abusive relationship.

Take me, for example. Sometimes DH has said things that cross the line into abusive. You can take my word for it I hope.
Even when I know that is the case I then have to decide what to do about the situation. I also have my two DC's to think about, and their relationship with their Father.

I think I basically said that in posts on here and elsewhere I feel there's room for more understanding and respect of each other's choices or decisions. Because as AnyFuckers blogger said women sometimes forget that we're all living in "a fucking patriarchy" - and making our way as best we can under that oppression -

AnyFucker brings out the RadFem in me

Actually I think there's value in your position of zero tolerance of abuse Offred - I just don't like being told I'm talking bollocks, especially when it's personal and I'm mis-represented too.

Ok but please understand that by talking about respect for people's choices to stay with partners who treat them badly when you imply that means people supporting them should agree with the choice to stay as the best thing you hold back women who want to leave because part of the problem is recognising bad behaviour as you say and the next part is actually believing that you deserve better and can leave. It is still supportive to give someone support with their choice without agreeing it is the best thing.

I don't know what branch of radical feminism you align with Juggling but...hang on... you are in a EA relationship yourself and advising others to stay in EA relationships if they want to? And you're sharing this wisdom not just through a peer support forum but in a blog as a self-appointed expert in...what...how to stay in a crap relationship and keep laughing?

I don't happen to agree that we all live in a 'fucking patriarchy'....and I certainly don't believe that a male dominated family is the only or best option. I don't believe in staying together for the sake of the kids either, esp if it means living with abuse. It is possible to have a lifestyle where we do not pander to the whims or wills of the (male) head of the household. There are choices and it's not disrespectful to share that with the OP or anyone else looking for advice and opinions. OP already said that there are assets, and that she's been employed fairly recently, so it's likely that she has options financially too.

Although I personally think she's be better off splitting up from her husband, the advice I gave OP earlier could be applied within the relationship too. Other posters gave a choice of suggestions and options...none of which were disrespectful.

your dcs relationship with their father is a separate entity; not dependent wholly on whether or not you stay with him. but you are encouraging them to see him as someone to pander to all his whims.

change your behaviour, stop running around after him to keep him sweet.
stop and think. count to ten before you react to him.
do not do anything he asks you to do without thinking -
can he do it himself?

is he a functioning adult able to walk and get his own pills from the cabinet?
who get tablets for me when i am sick? and if they do do i complain its the wrong one?

Hang on a minute LovingFreedom - I don't have a blog for one thing, I just said I read one that AnyFucker linked me to through a PM.

Secondly I'm not advising anyone to stay or go, merely appreciating that it can be a difficult choice/ decision.

And thirdly yes you/ I could be in an emotionally abusive relationship and still be a feminist because shit happens HTH

A shame, I really liked your supportive, understanding posts earlier.

I guess I'd have to start my own thread really to have any hope of a more balanced response from others - though I have found some posts here very helpful in thinking about my relationship too.

I think what you were asking for is that people agree staying can be the best thing for the victim and the children in order to qualify as respectful of someone's right to choose their own path. That can actually be quite an unsupportive thing to do.

The following certainly applies to my friend who stayed within her abusive relationship for 8 yeats but eventually came to her own realisations about her verbally and emotionally abusive ex. What I also said during all that time went in but she had to come to her own realisations about the realities of what she was facing (and the effects of same on her child).

It does not happen because they are stupid or weak-willed. Abused women stay in bad relationships simply because nobody taught them how to recognize an abusive relationship when they fell into one. Two things leave women vulnerable to abusers; lack of information and lack of self-worth. Nobody would willingly put themselves through that misery. What follows are 7 critical mistakes that all women unknowingly make that put them at risk - that you doubtless made also.

1. You bring a lot of unresolved negative programming to your relationship.

You may say that you were riding high before you met your abusive partner. (Abused women frequently tell me that they were doing well before they met their emotionally abusive partner.) That may well be true. But here is the other side of the coin: you felt bad about yourself; you had low self-esteem. You didn?t really believe you deserved the best. In fact, you didn?t believe you deserved very much at all. That is why you settled for a partner who you actively disliked at first glance. Chances are your parent(s) trained you to expect to be treated as inferior.

1. You don?t have clearly stated needs, wants and expectations at the start of a relationship.

Well, you wouldn?t, would you? You were trained to be less worthy (than pretty well everyone). So how could you possibly imagine that your needs, wants and expectations would be important to anyone ? even you. Maybe you thought that if you could just get your partner to love you, then he would want to focus on your needs, wants and expectations. It?s a nice theory, but it doesn?t work, because it is like trying to rewrite a contract, after it has been duly signed and witnessed. The contract you actually signed up to stated that both of you would focus your energy on meeting his needs, wants and expectations. Why would he want to change a state of affairs that suits him perfectly.

1. You are brilliant at putting yourself last.

It?s probably in the context of your relationship with your abusive partner (and offspring) that the word ?martyr? comes up most frequently. But you are an Olympic medallist at people-pleasing. Your unvoiced hope is that, one day, if you do enough for other people, they will finally reciprocate. How long have you got? If it hasn?t happened yet, the overwhelming likelihood is that it never will. A wise person once said: ?Today is practice for tomorrow.? What you are actually practising is throwing good love after bad; while your partner is practising bleeding you dry. If today is practice for tomorrow, what do you think tomorrow might look like?

1. You are quick to believe the best about everyone - except yourself.

You?ve grown up in the fantasy kingdom of The Pedestal. The most precious thing in this kingdom is the pedestal on which one lucky person gets to stand, because of their outstanding personal merit. Maybe, at the start of the relationship, your abusive partner allowed you to stand momentarily on his pedestal. But an abusive man soon reclaims it ? by right, of course. Standing on the pedestal means that he is The Best ? and you are a sorry excuse for a woman, a partner and a human being. Because he says so, you believe it; and because you stand so far below him, you find it easy to believe that you stand far below everyone else also. Believing is seeing, is it not?

1. You fail to learn from experience.

An abusive relationship represents the ? insane ? triumph of hope over experience. Every time you tell yourself that it won?t happen again, that it will get better, that you can believe his apologies (if he still bothers to say he is sorry); and every time it does happen again. The only difference is that it gets a little worse. And you hang on in the relationship, by tooth and nail, in the vain hope that it will get better. You hang on while the months turn into years, maybe even into decades? but it never does get any better.

1. You don?t hold your abusive partner accountable.

Perhaps you tell him that you don?t like his behaviour. You may even have left him, on occasion, for a while. But, sooner or later, you ?forgive him?. You take him back, and the abuse starts all over again. Why? Because he knows that although you might make the ?right noises?, there are no real deterrents to his behaviour. He knows that, whatever you say, when push comes to shove (as it often does) you will put up with whatever he dishes out. In an abusive relationship, you get the behaviour that you are prepared to tolerate. How do I define the term ?tolerate?? What you do not draw a line in the sand under, in reality, you tolerate? Under which of his behaviours have you actually drawn a line in the sand?

7. You become a denial superstar.

Distorting the true importance of what happens is a lot easier than changing his attitudes and behaviours. So, you tell yourself, and the world, a story that is less unpalatable than the reality. ?He can?t help it?, ?he doesn?t mean it?, ?he loves me, really?, ?he?s had a difficult childhood?, ?it?s just the alcohol?, ?he?s going through a really hard time?, are some of the stories you tell yourself to explain his treatment of you. The next stage is: ?I don?t blame him for feeling like that?, ?it?s my fault, because I??, ?if I hadn?t done X, he wouldn?t have??. And then there is: ?he?s no worse than a lot of men?. Your justifications sanction his bad behaviour. By refusing to admit what is really happening in your relationship, you collude with him to allow the abuse to continue.

Ah... Juggling my mistake I thought from the posts between you and AF that you were the blogger who had written about that....sorry.

I agree in respecting anyone's right to make their own decisions but not that all decisions can be respected equally. The decision is difficult - I know and there are so many reasons why not and never a good time. I can only speak from my own experience (and that of others I know who 'got out') in saying that it's worth all the pain and difficulties and hassle you have at first stages.

I'm not that interested in whether or not I or anyone else is a feminist these days...a friend of mine is a professor in an area of feminism and I'd give my right hand to see her leave the abusive twat she's married to... she's got all the theory but still in this horrendous position, mainly through trying to stay together for the sake of the kids FFS! It's so frustrating...but still have to respect her right not to do what I and many other friends see as being the 'best' action for her and her DCs.

This is quite interesting reading www.soberrecovery.com/forums/friends-family-substance-abusers/222862-addictive-relationships-emotional-abuse.html

it's about being addictive relationships. I think for me there was an element of being addicted to my ex....or to the relationship and what I thought I was bringing to it. I deliberately went kind of 'cold turkey' to get over it. OP or Juggling might find it useful.

Thanks for trying to build bridges with me Offred but No, I still didn't say even that. And you could apologise if you chose to for saying I was "talking bollocks"

• I don't feel that's a very helpful thing to say either to someone who feels they may be living in an abusive relationship. IIRC I started talking about respect after you used that phrase and was talking about more respect in general being desirable ( but it was a long time ago )

Thanks for your post Attila, that looks interesting and helpful

Thanks for your post LovingFreedom - I think it's always so helpful when people share their life experience for other's benefit. I'm very glad you're in a much better place now

You are very passive aggressive juggling. Sure you will say I am just plain aggressive, which is fine, but I find it hard to understand your point within all the allusions and being passive with your aggression doesn't make it any less aggressive.

OP I got to the bit about the gravy being too thin and broke off to say a small prayer of thanks

XH used to obsess about gravy. It had to be made from stock from the veg peelings and done in a certain way. He would never be angry or criticise directly when if it wasnt up to scratch but would find a way of letting me know

My life ended up being dominated by such small things contriving to leave me feeling worthless

I suggest Patricia Evans book on Verbal Abuse alongside or even before the Bancroft book

Oh and being free of it is heaven

My ex-H once served up a meal involving some cheese sauce that you could literally stand your fork up in...I still thanked him for it and attempted to eat it...

Another reason why I'm glad to be shot of him now though.

hello, everybody, glad to see the narkiness has died down somewhat

if anyone is still interested, it was this blog post that, coincidentally, was brought to my attention this morning

it made me think a little bit about the language I use when I am trying to support someone who isn't making the decisions I think she should, either fast enough or not at all

it's a feminism blog, so anyone offended by that, exercise your right to not follow the link

basically, to summarise, it talks about the decisions and compromises all women face, to survive in a world that is inherently set up to be unfair to them

it is a Radfem viewpoint, but is not a "radical" rant (for those who get their terms mixed up)

enjoy

Where have I been passive aggressive Offred ?

"You are very passive aggressive juggling"

I'm working on being assertive and would be interested in your comments to understand better what is meant by the term to help me determine how relevant an issue it is for me.

As I said in my return PM AnyFucker, I thought that blog made some very interesting points, so thanks for the link. It is slightly alarming to see being a wife mentioned in the same breath as being a prostitute though, albeit alongside the third survival strategy given of working full-time.

Personally I'm combining being a wife (though prefer term partner) with working P/T, alongside raising my children.