not violent but emotionally abusive?

[thatsnotmynamereally]

I am just wondering how obvious it must be to the rest of the world that DH is a manipulative d*ckhead? and why do I go along with it? Sorry-- this is a rather long rant but I just want to write it down so I'll stop going over it all in my head!

OK. Today he asked me if I'd go into his office with him, basically to keep him company as he'd be the only one there, he runs his own firm with a few others but they don't have much work at the moment so don't go in very often. DH likes to have people around him to talk to. I said no because I wanted to get some things done, ie laundry, sorting out some ISA transfers which should have been done two weeks ago, Ocado order, garden etc-- basically the things I normally do at home as I'm not working, I used to work full time but stopped about 3 years ago.

For the past week we had his brother (divorced) and BIL's little girl (5) staying with us. And it ended up being a total pain for me as I end up waiting on them hand and foot, basically just trying to be a good host but BIL is very hard work and never says thank you for anything. I really hadn't wanted them to come for various reasons mainly because the last time they stayed he (BIL) seemed so ungrateful and I ended up planning activities and having to go around with them (and pay for them FFS) and this time was about the same, but it was my DD's half term as well, she's applying to uni right now, and I'd looked forward to a nice calm week. We got through the week and all was OK not great-- but today was my first day at home since then.

Anyway DH was really annoyed (angry) that I didn't want to go in with him, but I stood my ground, he suggested that I go in and do some jobhunting but I said I wanted to stay and clean the house. So he went in not until about 12:00, did some work, I did some things around the house, he called at about 5:00 to be picked up at the tube (I have to be available for tube-pickups at all times as he doesn't like to take the bus, we have two cars so he could drive himself and park the car away from the tube what I did when I worked full time, the pick-ups are a real pain for me but that is another issue) and when we got into the house he had a go at me because it wasn't clean enough to be fair I had left the sitting room exactly how he'd left it that morning including his toast plate and mug on the table... but I had asked him to bring those things over and he hadn't this was after I'd had a total b%^ch session with him about how his brother had left cereal bowls etc all over and he'd agreed that it was not on!

So... I was planning on going to see fireworks with a friend he knew about this as I'd phoned him earlier I invited him (even though I really didn't want him to come as I wanted to have a good chat with friend), he said he might like to, after dinner I said OK dinner's almost ready I'd made sausages fried up with onions, plus cauliflower cheese, green beans, and the leftover roasted veges plus yorkshire puddings from a sumptuous roast dinner I'd made yesterday. Now I thought that was a pretty good effort. I brought it over to him, he immediately complained that the gravy was too thin, I was mildly annoyed and said that it wasn't but offered to remake it (Bisto, I despise it but he and kids love it) but he said too late, he'd already poured it, then he and DD and I all had our dinners, I poured the two of us a glass of red wine, asked if he was coming to the fireworks, he started complaining about the dinner which he said was very poor... and complained about the wine which was an expensive red I'd bought the day before and told him about because it was on a really good discount, I thought it was lovely but he was just looking for a reason to complain, he asked why there was no white wine in the house true, there wasn't but ?! I hadn't had time to re-stock! Not the end of the world? And we tend to drink red this time of year?! Sorry but I get so defensive, this has got to be part of the problem he started going on about how awful the dinner was, DD had a real go at him for being horrible to me and she told me the dinner was fine-- but what can you say if someone tells you that the dinner which you've cooked, which they've mostly eaten, is rubbish? I said, (a bit sarcastically but mainly to smooth things over), OK I'm sorry the dinner was sh*te and I'll never cook sausages again... blah blah... then he said, well you'd better get along to the fireworks and I said I'd bring a bottle of white wine back with me.

So I went off to the fireworks, a short walk away, met up with my friend, had a lovely time watching fireworks, which started much later than they'd said and went on for a fairly long time. We had such a nice chat and we decided we should go for a quick drink after to celebrate my birthday which was a week ago. So against my better judgement we did and had a lovely time, shared a bottle of wine and generally had a chat and caught up. Of course DH was annoyed that I hadn't turned up, called about 9:15 and asked where I was , I told him was just leaving, got a bottle of wine at Sainsburys on the way back and got home well before 10:00-- not unreasonably late.

More back story here it was my birthday a week ago on the Friday that BIL was due to turn up to the train station at 9:30PM and he needed picking up from the station in the car (he's got health issues, couldn't ask him to get a taxi) so that scuppered any thoughts of an evening glass of fizz or celebration, not really too dramatic about it but knowing we had to get ready for him coming which we weren't looking forward to sort of ruined the day. DH thought we should do something to celebrate my birthday, I said that I was just fine not doing too much but he insisted so we decided to go to Bicester outlet mall... just for a fun day out, no serious shopping or anything. It's about an hours drive from us and we got there it was packed, so packed that we couldn't find a parking space and DH got furious and drove really fast and angry up and down the parking lanes people jumped out of the way I of course got really upset by this, then DH found a parking attendant and shouted at him for 10 minutes when the guy suggested we park by the train station. So we drove away with him shouting that he was never going back there OK it was annoying not to find a space but FFS supposed to be my birthday celebration! Anyway we ended up having lunch at a restaurant but not fun and I wasn't 'allowed' to mention Bicester and how unreasonable he'd been. Anyway last night I thought I should have been able to say to DH that my friend was taking me for a birthday drink without me feeling guilty about it, as I'd had no other acknowledgement!

DH went to bed just before I got in last night, I went up to see him and he said I'd ruined everything, blah blah, so I said OK fine and went downstairs to sleep on the sofa. Now I'm awake at 4AM and rather furious with the situation. Sorry if it's TMI but just wanted to write it down... so many more examples like this seem to be happening on a daily basis... I need to do something but I'm not sure what! Don't want to make any effort to rock the boat until lovely DD, who is very understanding and knows that DH gets into these moods, gets her uni place sorted out...

'I do talk openly to the kids about how unfair he's being (to me or others)' - how can they not be affected then? I take it they are not young children. Delaying and delaying is an excuse.

The main question is, if you were able to afford it, would you leave or have him leave? Is this 'relationship' one you want to continue. You sound like his slave not his wife.

If you speak to someone about finances you may not be as badly off as you think.
Or you carry on like this forever, basically.

My father was like this man all through my childhood. My mother had the odd "blow out" and smashed a few plates on occasion. It made not a blind bit of difference, and she stayed and stayed.

She was, and remains still, a shadow of the woman she should have been.

Thanks for your post and sympathy/ empathy thatsnotmynamereally ( BTW I wonder what is ? < nosey - but don't tell ! > )

Sometimes it's complicated isn't it ?

I do try humour, and especially perspective, and they do sometimes add some clarity to the situation

I think the feminism issue is very interesting.
We will really be getting somewhere when women can acknowledge the realities of each others lives, and all the factors involved in that - For example career opportunities and pay are not equal for women and men, women are often the primary carer of their children, and these things effect our choices, dilemmas, relationships, and lives.

So, I work P/T in a badly paid but interesting job with young children, I value DH's contribution as a father to our children's lives, (D)H doesn't care much if he upsets me and can be EA at his worst moments. These are some of the things I'm juggling.

So, I feel somewhat trapped in this relationship and situation. It isn't always as simple as "Leave the bastard" though there are relationships where I think that is sound advice. But I think it's more helpful to hear from those who've maybe trod the path ahead of us about their own experiences - like "LovingFreedom" - thanks for your posts on here too.

Remember marital assets are jointly owned....doesn't matter who went out to work or whose name it's in. That includes the house, pensions, savings etc accrued during the marriage.

This is something I will never understand though to be honest Juggling.

I am a single parent, I provide very adequately for my child without a man around. I don't need one financially. I'm also in a part time rather lowly paid job, it's fine.

Your dh sounds like my dad.

I did well at uni and life generally. The price I pay for growing up in that kind of household is a constant feeling of inadequacy and I'm easil bullied as I freeze when people in authority to me lose their temper and i desperately tried to placate them. I'm very good at picking up on people's bad moods. I constantly apologise. I'm not in an abusive relationship myself through luck not design. My mums only advice was he is a good man if he doesn't hit you.

The sausages thing is totally my dad. I'm a good cook but I always think I'm rubbish as this kind if thing happened all the time. He too gets ill when he knows he's pushed mum too far. I now know a lot of his illness growing up was hangovers.

I used to stand up for my mum too. It's pointless now because she takes dad side over mine any time including on my wedding day and the day I gave birth to ds. She barely sees ds because she is too busy running around after my dad and I can't be bothered to enable her anymore after she has hurt me so much.

I wish she'd left when she said she would. She feels stuck there now, my dad is disabled, they have very few friends because he's so awful to people and awful to her if she goes out. From all accounts dad had a shit childhood. I don't see why mine had to be too. Making mine or mums life a misery doesn't make his childhood any better does it?

Your dd will be moving away. Why not look fir a job (anywhere) and move away too? Best of luck

OP, I did well at studying and at University in spite of and to spite my father. He was convinced I would come to nothing.

I lived in a nice house too, with money regularly coming in. I am sure my mother used the pound signs in her eyes as one of her justifications for staying. Oh, and but I loooooove himmmm

It didn't stop me getting fucked up along the way. I attribute many of the awful decisions I made as a young adult wrt relationships and accepting crap treatment from men directly to the lessons I learned as I grew up.

You and he do not live in a vacuum. Your relationship dramas and the way he treats you, and you have allowed yourself to be treated are all out there for everyone else to see. Don't fool yourself no-one knows. They do.

Well I do admire you Phoenix - and respect you for your choices and strength.

But I think women all need to respect each others choices more.

Including acknowledging that some women in our un-equal society who were expecting to raise their children in a partnership with the father of their children don't necessarily feel their best option (for themselves and their children) is to leave & go it alone - even when the relationship is less than they hoped it would be - especially for them personally.

This isn't meant to be as personal as it might sound Phoenix - I just think it's a very interesting issue in feminism which has for a long time endorsed the strong, financially independent woman. But what about women who don't feel so strong, or who are more dependent on their partner for a variety of reasons ?

JWP, do I know you under another name ?

I have just read a blog that addresses those very issues.

Hi AnyFucker - Well, I've been Juggling with lots of other things since joining Mumsnet - including Tangential Oranges for a while. But I've always kept the Juggling bit I changed to Possibilities after being inspired by the Paralympics this summer - and because it sums up my life and approach quite well

That blog sounds interesting ?

JWP - the reason you are talking bollocks is there is loads of support for women who aren't strong in order to help them gain strength in order to free themselves from this kind of abuse and the support isn't conditional. The fact that many don't feel they can go doesn't make staying any better for them.

And I do talk openly to the kids about how unfair he's being (to me or others) and hopefully that has mitigated the worst of the damage

I literally held my head in my hands when I read that. Discussing with them how 'unfair' he is will have compounded the damage of a truly shit marriage.

What you say is nothing like as powerful as what you do . You're running around him like a servant, having to pretend you're busy like his effing maid; made his breakfast after his tantrum??? after you slept on the sofa???

But to drag your kids in and discuss the shit you're living in with them? girl, you're fucking them up. Get out, don't involve your kids. Do instead of talking .

There is a very, very high chance they will recreate your relationship in their relationships? No amount of talking about it will have made a blind bit of difference - they have seen you appease him over and over again whilst complaining to them in private.

I'm cross that your kids have been dragged into this shithole of a marriage, not just by what they've seen over and over again but by you discussing the minutiae of it with them for goodness knows how many years

Thank you for that Juggling and I really didn't take it personally. One can never quite walk in another persons shoes.

What I'm trying to say is one of the biggest worries I have found is women really think they can't cope financially without a man and I'm just here to say they can and very adequately too, I understand the fear but it really isn't necessary in a practical sense because you can manage these days.

I am staggered by this man. All I could think while reading the OP was "baby", but of course that does a disservice to babies!! He's an utter horror thatsnot.

The thing is, , you won't get back any of the time you have spent with this entitled fool. One life, tick tock and all that.

And you know it's already obvious to the world-you say your friends call him your third child!

This is not normal. Your dd is probably desperate for you to put your foot up his arse down. She defends you, she is not daft. I'd bet my house that getting rid of him out of YOUR life will not damage her at all. After all, she would get her mum back.

Juggling I'll pm you the link, if that's ok.

I totally get what you are saying, but my default position is always not to enable shit men. If that means you have to accept reduced financial circumstances, so be it. It's not fair, and it's not right but the more we say "no" to shabby treatment as a group, the less power these inadequate men will have over us.

OP is entitled to a share of marital assets. She should be looking into exactly what that consists of, what other help she can receive and making a decision based on that ....not a warped version of what a "family" should be.

My mum has always been the breadwinner. She had other reasons for staying. There's always reasons for staying if you look hard enough. As the child in this scenario I would rather have been poorer and not in that situation. Most of the disposable got spent on what my dad wanted anyway.

Well a huge thanks to Phoenix and others for your understanding. Quite right about the shoe thing too !

I find that very offensive Offred that when I talk about my life you say I am talking bollocks - with respect I think I know more about it than you do.
Then, from my experience, I added some thoughts about issues in feminism today, and an opinion that women need to respect one another's choices and the individual circumstances of their lives more.

But feel free to trash my opinions. I know anyone I respect wouldn't do that, given what I've said. So I probably won't report your post though it probably breaks the guidelines. Let it stand even though I've rarely been so offended.

Also disagree with springy on OP's behalf. I think talking through the family dynamics with our children and DD's can certainly be very helpful to them, depending what is said and how it's done. "Not in front of the children" is quite old-fashioned I feel. I'm quite open with my DC's too, though of course try to shield them from upset too.

have pm'ed you, juggling

'And I do talk openly to the kids about how unfair he's being (to me or others) and hopefully that has mitigated the worst of the damage'

My mum did this with me and my sister. She used us as a sounding board, an off-loading service when she couldn't take it any more. She picked us up and put us down whenever it suited her. And then she would just continue doing his bidding, keeping up the dutiful wife act. It has messed up my sister and me more than I can tell you. We have both been in violent abusive relationships. We both struggle to trust men and to have healthy relationships. I see a psychotherapist every week and suffer from depression and anxiety. Please don't flatter yourself that you're handling this well and mitigating all the damage by giving your kids such mixed messages.

'But to drag your kids in and discuss the shit you're living in with them? girl, you're fucking them up. Get out, don't involve your kids'

Yes yes yes to this. You need to get away from this foul, awful man. You are making excuses why you shouldn't go yet. Sort it out. I feel for you having experienced such vile abuse for years from this man but you need to open your eyes to the situation OP. Please stop kidding yourself. You deserve so much better than this.

When I left my violent ex, I was absolutely petrified of being alone. I felt that everyone else's lives had moved on without me - that my friends would have no time for me, that no-one would want me. In fact, the complete polar opposite was true. My friends absolutely rallied round and were desperate to spend time with me now that he was out of the picture. It honestly felt like being released from prison. That was nearly 10 years ago but I still catch myself revelling in the freedom to do simple things, like go out for a walk when I feel like it, or go out with a friend for the evening without some tosser blowing up my mobile with 100 missed calls demanding to know where I am. Seriously think about what you are worth. And please keep posting. Good luck to you

HandbagCrab your post is sounding warning bells for me... glad you've come through it and you can stand back from your situation and see what's underlying your reactions. As far as the kids are concerned I think talking about it rather than covering it up helps. And we all joke about Does your mother regret her choices? Possibly not? I just had to look up this poem they fuck you up, your mum and dad (hope I did that right!)

Juggling, there are so many aspects to modern-day feminism, I personally think that the mindset I was brought up with (career comes before everything) is out the window once you've got kids. I had a career that I trained long and hard for, not a lucrative one, but the investment I've put into the kids eclipses any job I've done and will be far more rewarding in the long run... just a thought!

Just want to clarify I really don't throw this at the kids, and DS never did get involved, it was only an issue last night re: the stupid dinner row and he felt it was appropriate to criticize me in front of her which in itself is sh*t on his part, I've never taken her aside and had a bitch and moan session about him, just said afterwards that I didn't think that he should be saying that, on the level of 'why are you treating my like this'? as a question to make him reflect on his behaviour rather than a self-pitying whiney question, I hope! AAARG. Got to go out now, spend all morning on the computer! Needed to do a bit of navel-gazing, it seems clearer that I've got to get the strategy in place and talk to him what he is doing isn't right and my running around trying to appease him, whatever my motivation, isn't right way to deal with it!

But OP - you tell your kids 'he should not be saying that' and then carry right on putting up with it and pandering to him!!

You are not mitigating the damage, you are compounding it.

I have a lump in my throat reading your justifications, your joking and having fun, about the appalling situation you are in, that you have dragged your kids into full pelt when it is none of their business and they shouldn't have been dragged into it - ever

It's not ok to blithely quote the poem about your mum and dad fucking you up, as though hey ho, that's how it goes, nothing anyone can do, what larks.

It isn't larks. It's shit, really shit, and extremely damaging. He might be an entitled arsehole but dear me their mother is a loon. I don't see your justifications/jokes as panic.

"Always judge people not by what they say but by what they do."

You can say whatever you like to your kids about this abusive marriage, but all they will take any notice of is what you do. And what you do is tolerate it.

Don't kid yourself OP.

IMO that's not necessarily true pictish (about compounding damage)

Anyway, good luck to you OP, and thanks for thought-provoking thread x