What to do about my Sister?

[happygoluckyinOz]

As the title suggests, I don't know what to do about my sister.

Background is this:

There are three siblings: me (29) my brother (27) and my sister (20). I left home at 19 to go to University and I never moved back, went straight to London afterwards to start work. I've never really had a close relationship with my sister as I left home when she was 9. My brother left school and did an apprentiship as a mechanic and has been doing that ever since. He gave my parents a lot of grief from the age of about 16 and treated them like utter crap until a few years ago. They bailed him out numerous times (driving without insurance, without MOT etc) and he has owed them money for years with no real drive to pay them back (despite earning double their combined income now). He moved out at around 18/19 as well as my parents couldn't take living with him anymore - my father was on the verge of a heart attack every time they had a screaming match he was so angry. He moved back a couple of times down the years until he moved out to Australia 3 years ago.

I also moved out to Australia last year and since both me and my brother now live here my parents also want to move and have put in a visa application to come (a long held dream to move here even before we moved out).

So to my sister - she's always been a bit of the 'odd one out' really. As there was quite a gap in ages between us she's been like an only child since my brother and I moved out. My parents, I think, have pandered to her, she's done whatever she likes whenever she likes. Because if she didn't get her own way her fiery temper would unleash - my mums a sensitive soul, any little thing sets her off so she'd just back off and leave her alone.

This, I think, has got us into the current situation.

She finished her A'levels at school last year and had not applied to go to University as she didn't know if she wanted to. She finished school and would spend her whole day in bed because she had spent the whole night on the internet and on the xbox. She had a part-time job cleaning at her old school, but it was only 15 hours a week. This went on for 6 months with my parents having constant battles with her over what she was going to do with her life - to which she didn't know and would refuse to talk to them about it, she'd just shut herself in her room. She decided to apply for university, but didn't get on the course she wanted (she only wanted to do one course at one university - wouldn't apply anywhere else or for anything else).

So my parents, feeling guilty that they wanted to move to Australia decided that the best thing to do would be to enrol her in University in Australia and she'd come out and live with us. Now as she's not a resident or citizen this means she's an international student and has to pay international student fees - currently $10,000 per semester ($20,000 per year / £12,700). Now my parents are not wealthy by any stretch and have spent most of their life struggling from one credit card to the next. These fees have to be paid up front - there is no student loan for international students. My sister thought this was a great idea, she'd come to university in Oz and 'start again' - get away from the Computer and its hold on her and start afresh. The proviso was that my parents would pay the first semester and then she would get a job to pay the next semester's fees (she is allowed to work 20 hours a week and could easily have saved up).

My brother and I agreed that she could stay with us and initially she went to stay with my brother (as he has a 5 bed house and we have a 2 bed flat). My brother works away for 2 weeks at a time and comes home for a week - so she was with his fiancé most of the time. This seemed to work for a while as she was company for her. But this came to a head 3 weeks ago when his fiancé basically kicked her out due to arguments over cleaning the house. She just wouldn't do it - she'd clean up after herself but was doing nothing else to contribute to the house (they paid for everything, including her food) so his fiancé got fed up and said she should come and live with me and my husband.

So she's now with us. But I'm worried about her. She has gone back (or never really stopped) to being on the computer all night and spending all her time in bed in her room. Over this weekend she has probably spent around 1 hour outside of her room since Friday evening and it's now Monday morning. She comes out for dinner (because I make it for her) and then goes straight back in again. She goes to sleep at around 4am and doesn't get up until 2pm, and then still stays in bed on her Computer, maybe getting up and having a shower at 6pm. She has not joined any groups at university, she's missing lectures and classes because she can't get out of bed to go to them in a morning. She doesn't meet anyone after class, doesn't go anywhere on a weekend. She doesn't eat anything other than dinner in an evening - and that's only because I've made it for her. She's as white as a sheet because she doesn't go outside!

She hasn't got a job since she?s been here because 'she wasn't ready yet' and refused to talk about it with me. She won?t talk to my husband and seems painfully shy and awkward around him, which is making for an awkward living situation for us (when she comes out of her room that is).

So, I just don't know what to do for the best here. My parents are talking about putting her next semester fees on their credit card (due in Feb) but I'm just not sure the answer is to keep throwing money at her and paying for everything. We're all going home at Christmas because my brother is getting married in England, and I'm thinking it would just be better if she didn't come back and tried to make a life in England rather than my parents keep spending money on her out here. But then I think the problems would just remain there too.

This is all stressful for us because obviously having a third adult in the house is costing us money - especially since she's on the internet all the time (we had a limit of 8GB a month for broadband, it's only the 15th and it's all gone) and she's using so much electricity in her room it's heated up by it all! My husband isn't working because he was laid off in August, so it's just me earning and I feel like I didn't sign up to pay for my sister with her contributing nothing and not making a go of a life here for herself. I feel like it would be all worth it if I could see a change in her, and she was going out and having a good time - gaining some self-confidence, but she's not.

I know if I go back to my mum with this she's going to be devastated and equally I'm not sure how to talk to my sister as everything I say she gets defensive and shuts down.

I'm really sorry for the essay, I just don't know where to turn!

Ps, can we do a life swap? She can spend a few weeks here in my life...job, 2x DC, house to run, GParent to care for? I'd quite enjoy a couple of weeks at your place (I'd even cook for you every night!!) lol

You sound a very kind sister OP. You sound in a very tricky position.

I haven't read all the thread, so apologies if that has been done, but is there any chance she could have Asperger's? A couple of people I know with AS are very similar (esp all the nocturnal stuff, and not being able to get out of bed for work/study to the point of being sacked etc). If she is it doesn't change anything for you particularly (I mean you don't suddenly become responsible for her), but might make it easier to get the right sort of help she needs.

not an official checklist but useful for females and the autism quotient

You sound extremely kind. And she is taking advantage of your kindness, as your parents also are.

I think you need to tell your parents a couple of home truths about their daughter, to prevent that she keeps trying to manipulate the situation by crying to them all the time. No doubt she does this in the hope that your mum shall "tell you off". Your parents need to man up and stand up to her, too, in order to help her.

You have been put in the awkward position that you now have to rectify years of parenting mistakes, she is a 20 year old adult, who behaves like an entitled and spoilt child, who expects to be treated like a grown up. And as long as she behaves like a lazy and sulky teenager, it is very difficult for you to have her in your home. It is not possible to reason with her, and she is unable to see your side of the situation at all. She does not understand that job hunting is more important than her watching a man fall from space. She does not understand that you cant afford to pay for this.

She needs a crash course in growing up, and she needs to learn to take responsibility for herself, she needs to learn to budget, she needs to learn the hard reality of life, and she will never learn any of this as long as you are replacement parents without any authority.

I think the best way you can help her is to let her move into halls of residence, or a bedsit, and let her sort herself out.

When I was 20, I moved from the north of friggin Norway to study in London. No family to back me up. Just me. I had to find a place to live, I could not afford halls. I had to find work, and managed to find two part time jobs. It was difficult at first, as my English was not good enough to work with "the public", but I did manage to find a bar job after a couple of months in London, along with a job in the library as part time shelving staff.

Frankly, it is staggering that she is 20 years old, with so little grasp of reality, and so little self sufficiency. For a 20 year old to be so dependent, and feel that she is owed food and lodging, in return for a shit attitude, is quite amazing really. I dont think that Softly Softly will work!

Quint, I have seen you on loads of threads, and I have never realised you weren't a 'native' speaker! (Don't mean to sound patronising)

The threat of her having to 'eat like a student' is a bit unusual. Is she suggesting that if she ends up eating beans and toast day in day out, that it is somehow your fault?

I wouldn't say she sounds like she has Asd at all but is a spoilt brat who has been allowed to get away with behaving like a child for far too long.

I would treat her like one tbh.
Set rules for the house. Internet time, dinner time, chores to do, times to get up in the morning and rent to pay.

Seriously she needs a good kick up the backside and if she can't deal with that send her packing! By her age I had three jobs and brought my first place!

Lisa, I had also bought my first house and was working by that age.

I don't think she sounds like a spoilt brat - driving round a city in the middle of the night searching for an internet connection (and not waking anyone up to make a drama out of it) is way beyond spoilt bratness. It would seem likely that something abnormal is going on. She is very like someone I know with AS (I know many people with AS, all very different, but one in particular who is a similar age does many, many of the things mentioned - strikingly similar - this person is very obviously socially awkward which may not be the case for your sister). Someone upthread mentioned social anxiety, others have said severe addiction. Whatever, I think you are right OP when you say you're not equipped to deal with it. This is beyond the usual realms of immature behaviours.

Whatever is going on I do think she needs help - I hope the university get in contact soon (although I did try to get some advice on behalf of the person mentioned above from his university and they were bloody hopeless tbh). I have no idea what the system is in Australia but it might be worth seeing if you can talk to someone in mental health for advice. An Oz equivalent of Mind might have a helpline and some advice on where to go. A helpline of some sort might be a good place to get lots of ideas.

I don't see how you can carry on having her live with you unless she takes on some responsibility for her behaviour or works with people who are available to help her. I also think people do have to stop spending lots of money on her. Ultimately she isn't your responsibility (heck, I have a child who will never live independently - his brothers I hope will look out for him as we get older, but he's definitely not their responsibility).

My ha'penn'orth:

You and your DH have been incredibly patient, I think.

I agree with NotDavidTennant and I do think the rest of the family are rather dumping this situation on you, making it your responsibility to deal with it, but still wanting to interfere and tell you how to deal with it.

In your shoes, I would be tempted not to speak to your parents or brother about it too regularly. That avoids all the instructions and the crying guilt trips etc, and lessens the triangulation whereby your sister manipulates everyone. Just speak to them to tell them what you've decided.

And your sister should, sadly, probably be told that if she acts up like this you'll kick her out even sooner.

How can they kick her out. I mean she can't look after herself, has no money to speak of and has no friends.

It looks like they are landed with her.

She would be better in the UK where, if she does need counselling or whatever, it is free.

How can they kick her out. I mean she can't look after herself, has no money to speak of and has no friends.

She is allowed to work 20hrs. She could find a job and a flat share, same as other people her age. It would be bloody tough and probably the best learning experience of her life.

Hi Happy, I'm surprised you haven't changed your name to "FedupwithsisterinOz". I agree with everyone else, you and your DH are going above and beyond already and DS is still trying to manipulate the whole family and call the shots in your home. She needs a list of rules to abide by and consequences if they are not.

How come your DB and his DF are so concerned about her now they've got rid of her from their home and she's at arms length? They want everything to be rosy for her, as long as it's not under their roof.

If you manage to get through the rest of the semester with her living in your home, I hope you can get some definite plans in place for next year. Has the payment of next year's uni fees been discussed? Who is paying for the next lot of maintenance/rego/insurance of the car that you bought for her?

You can't possibly be expected to support and give her a roof over her head for another year (or is it longer?) until your parents are able to get out here?

You sound a great sister:) however your sister is not. I find it interesting she feels she can call mum and dad and they will 'make' you do what she wants. And not discussing her problems with the computer etc as it upsets her? It's supposed to, so she knows it's not on. If I was living somewhere and didn't like the house rules I would leave, not have the balls to moan and complain that things werent as I liked them.

At 20, and uni, but with the expectations of a truculent 14 year old. Well done fr insisting she comes to you for apologising. However, I think she should move into other shared flat accommodation after Christmas with other girls her own age to get an idea of acceptable behaviour. She has no idea of it as she has been so sheltered. That's plenty of time to find somewhere, get a job etc. otherwise she will have to go back to the uk, but f course should be in halls, not at home.

I would say she has no idea what to do now as she is so used to things going her way after a big tantrum, and by negotiating she is feeling she is doing you a favour! Its a steep learning curve, but for her sake she must do it- and if she purposely fails o prove you wrong, well, you can't live her life for her.

Good luck with whatever you decide:)

Your sister is a spoilt brat & she needs to be told that.

The way you are handling it is the right way. Dont pander to her, stick to your rules & kick her out if she refuses.

Hi All, there seems to be an uneasy calm here at the moment. After my exasperation on Monday I decided not to respond to my brother or my mum and leave my phone where I couldn't see it!

DH went out with some friends for a pub quiz & got home late so didn't really speak to Sis, the Internet went off when we went to bed with no fuss.

On Tuesday we decided to respond to the email - as that seems to be the way she is most comfortable communicating. Just laying down some rules for our home & how we won't be dictated to. We said what we expected of her concerning household chores and said she could stay until the end of term and that was it. I also addressed this 'sisterly' time by saying that I was hurt by her behaviour towards us & you can't force a closeness, that takes time and mutual respect - of which I don't think there is a lot of right now. I copied in everyone in the interests of being 'open' and not talking behind her back.

Fiancé decided my email was too harsh & that I as the big sister needed to make more of an effort to be closer to her. I ignore this as I really don't feel I could have worded it any better.

Yesterday she was pleasant enough, spent the day outside of her room (did miss all her morning lectures though - couldn't get out of bed until 3pm ) but DH said she was being chatty & trying to be nice.

Today I got a reply from the Uni accommodation saying they had a room for her in a 5 bed apartment until the end of the semester, she can afford this by just working 9 hours a week at her new job. I have forwarded this to her and told her it is her choice - as much as I'd love to say she doesn't have one she's out - I can't.

So will see what happens with that. She's staying the night at my brothers tonight so at least we get a night off the awkward tension!!

And as for fees/accom & fairly sure my parents will just pay this - but I've decided to not get involved - it's their money.

As for her car, that's in my brothers name, so his problem

Blimey that's fantastic progress, go you.

You sound a bit walking on egg shellsy, as though you're waiting for her to go off again. But you have laid down some boundaries which is huge.

Good luck, and do keep us informed.

Its all now calm before the next storm hits. And it will.

Who sorted this uni accommodation - you most likely. Again enabling does not help anyone least of all your sister.

You sent her this e-mail - what stopped you from saying this is where you will be living now?. Your parents reaction?. You need to think about that very carefully.

All of what you have described re your birth family is basically the norm in such overall dysfunction of which you are a part. Your codependent parents have now put you in this role of you your sister's surrogate parent; people from dysfunctional families end up playing roles.

You are also part of the problem because you are still playing the game. You have to completely disengage from your sister and her enabling parents who have also allowed her to act as she does. If you do not, she will drag you down with her.

I didn't just tell her because I would feel awful, I really can't "kick her out", I don't want to create a massive family argument and I don't want to cause my parents any more upset. I know it's their fault and I shouldn't be protecting them, but I just cannot bring myself to do anything which is ultimately going to cause an international nightmare.

So if I'm still enabling her behaviour by allowing her to stay the next 7 weeks so be it, after then we've made it clear she can't stay here & I will not be responsible for her.

I know me enquiring to the Uni at accom is just more of the same (me doing everything) but if this is what it takes to get her out & in Uni digs I'm willing to help her out this one last time!

"So if I'm still enabling her behaviour by allowing her to stay the next 7 weeks so be it, after then we've made it clear she can't stay here & I will not be responsible for her".

She will not take you seriously then either and you will get stuck on the whole enabling cycle again. Remember, enabling is doing things for someone else that they CAN and SHOULD be doing for themselves. Many people think of enabling strictly in regards to alcoholics or drug addicts, whose family and friends make excuses for unacceptable behaviours, thus creating an atmosphere of comfort and ease for the situation to continue long-term.

Enabling vs. helping has a much broader meaning, encompassing many areas of life, including raising children to become independent adults rather than contributing to the increasing phenomenon of grown children returning home to live with their parents (like my freeloading BIL, the similarities between yuor sister and he are uncanny).

When we enable addicts, children, friends or family, we are preventing them from experiencing the consequences of their own actions. We are not only preventing them from realizing they have a problem, but we are also depriving them of fully reaching their own potential.

She could go now but she won't take up this offer of a uni apartment and certainly not also whilst she has you running around after her.

You finding her accommodation does not help her; enabling only gives you a false sense of control. You have not helped your sister at all by doing that for her. Enabling helps no-one.

Feeling awful is partly what people like your sister rely on; she knows at heart you're a softie and won't do anything.

You can only help your own self here and you need to detach completely from the codependent dysfunctional mess your parents played a huge role in causing (I note that they have also bailed out your brother previously as well).
If you do not do this you are also part of the problem.

I would also suggest you read Codependent No More written by Melodie Beattie.

Fiancée decided my email was too harsh & that I as the big sister needed to make more of an effort to be closer to her

Oh what bollocks, really. It strikes me this is all code for 'don't cause problems, I want you to smooth all this over and bear the brunt so I don't have to think about it', whether fiancee realises it or not.

I see what Attila is saying, but I also understand why you aren't forcing her to leave now. Between now and end of the semester though, you may need to keep reinforcing the message that she IS going to have to go.

Is this the same fiancé who chucked her out a while ago? Everyone seems very involved in her and her feelings which I guess is what suits your sis as she can carry on as she is. It's an old bit of advice, but nothing will change whilst you keep doing the same thing.

Imo, It woud be more helpful all round if when she calls anyone to complain they interrupt with' oh, I thought it was all good now. If you dont like it, find a flat share, can't be easy on your sister having you there either' and changes the subject quickly. No moaning. Ie, you have all moved on, lots of stuff happening etc, so she is not stagnating in this drama and neither are you.

Might take her a while but she will come round.

Yes, there is a lot of drama created here - by your sister, by your parents, your brother, his fiancé.

I'd be exhausted by it all.

I love how the rest of your family are all putting the onus on you to sort things out and smooth everything over, whilst they've all washed their hands of your sister in one way and another! While she's your problem, she's not theirs (or, more to the point, her own), so they've got a lot riding on you sorting things out.

Good for you not taking any shit and for responding to the email honestly and without pandering to others. I agree with the others that the longer you continue to allow your sister a free ride though, the longer this problem continues. If she wants to be treated like an adult and do as she wants, then she needs to pay her own way and arrange her own accommodation, study and finances. While she's living at your expense she's a child stamping her foot and manipulating you all into doing what she wants and not making her accountable. She's a brat - not of your making - but the sooner she's out of your home the better.