What to do about my Sister?

[happygoluckyinOz]

As the title suggests, I don't know what to do about my sister.

Background is this:

There are three siblings: me (29) my brother (27) and my sister (20). I left home at 19 to go to University and I never moved back, went straight to London afterwards to start work. I've never really had a close relationship with my sister as I left home when she was 9. My brother left school and did an apprentiship as a mechanic and has been doing that ever since. He gave my parents a lot of grief from the age of about 16 and treated them like utter crap until a few years ago. They bailed him out numerous times (driving without insurance, without MOT etc) and he has owed them money for years with no real drive to pay them back (despite earning double their combined income now). He moved out at around 18/19 as well as my parents couldn't take living with him anymore - my father was on the verge of a heart attack every time they had a screaming match he was so angry. He moved back a couple of times down the years until he moved out to Australia 3 years ago.

I also moved out to Australia last year and since both me and my brother now live here my parents also want to move and have put in a visa application to come (a long held dream to move here even before we moved out).

So to my sister - she's always been a bit of the 'odd one out' really. As there was quite a gap in ages between us she's been like an only child since my brother and I moved out. My parents, I think, have pandered to her, she's done whatever she likes whenever she likes. Because if she didn't get her own way her fiery temper would unleash - my mums a sensitive soul, any little thing sets her off so she'd just back off and leave her alone.

This, I think, has got us into the current situation.

She finished her A'levels at school last year and had not applied to go to University as she didn't know if she wanted to. She finished school and would spend her whole day in bed because she had spent the whole night on the internet and on the xbox. She had a part-time job cleaning at her old school, but it was only 15 hours a week. This went on for 6 months with my parents having constant battles with her over what she was going to do with her life - to which she didn't know and would refuse to talk to them about it, she'd just shut herself in her room. She decided to apply for university, but didn't get on the course she wanted (she only wanted to do one course at one university - wouldn't apply anywhere else or for anything else).

So my parents, feeling guilty that they wanted to move to Australia decided that the best thing to do would be to enrol her in University in Australia and she'd come out and live with us. Now as she's not a resident or citizen this means she's an international student and has to pay international student fees - currently $10,000 per semester ($20,000 per year / £12,700). Now my parents are not wealthy by any stretch and have spent most of their life struggling from one credit card to the next. These fees have to be paid up front - there is no student loan for international students. My sister thought this was a great idea, she'd come to university in Oz and 'start again' - get away from the Computer and its hold on her and start afresh. The proviso was that my parents would pay the first semester and then she would get a job to pay the next semester's fees (she is allowed to work 20 hours a week and could easily have saved up).

My brother and I agreed that she could stay with us and initially she went to stay with my brother (as he has a 5 bed house and we have a 2 bed flat). My brother works away for 2 weeks at a time and comes home for a week - so she was with his fiancé most of the time. This seemed to work for a while as she was company for her. But this came to a head 3 weeks ago when his fiancé basically kicked her out due to arguments over cleaning the house. She just wouldn't do it - she'd clean up after herself but was doing nothing else to contribute to the house (they paid for everything, including her food) so his fiancé got fed up and said she should come and live with me and my husband.

So she's now with us. But I'm worried about her. She has gone back (or never really stopped) to being on the computer all night and spending all her time in bed in her room. Over this weekend she has probably spent around 1 hour outside of her room since Friday evening and it's now Monday morning. She comes out for dinner (because I make it for her) and then goes straight back in again. She goes to sleep at around 4am and doesn't get up until 2pm, and then still stays in bed on her Computer, maybe getting up and having a shower at 6pm. She has not joined any groups at university, she's missing lectures and classes because she can't get out of bed to go to them in a morning. She doesn't meet anyone after class, doesn't go anywhere on a weekend. She doesn't eat anything other than dinner in an evening - and that's only because I've made it for her. She's as white as a sheet because she doesn't go outside!

She hasn't got a job since she?s been here because 'she wasn't ready yet' and refused to talk about it with me. She won?t talk to my husband and seems painfully shy and awkward around him, which is making for an awkward living situation for us (when she comes out of her room that is).

So, I just don't know what to do for the best here. My parents are talking about putting her next semester fees on their credit card (due in Feb) but I'm just not sure the answer is to keep throwing money at her and paying for everything. We're all going home at Christmas because my brother is getting married in England, and I'm thinking it would just be better if she didn't come back and tried to make a life in England rather than my parents keep spending money on her out here. But then I think the problems would just remain there too.

This is all stressful for us because obviously having a third adult in the house is costing us money - especially since she's on the internet all the time (we had a limit of 8GB a month for broadband, it's only the 15th and it's all gone) and she's using so much electricity in her room it's heated up by it all! My husband isn't working because he was laid off in August, so it's just me earning and I feel like I didn't sign up to pay for my sister with her contributing nothing and not making a go of a life here for herself. I feel like it would be all worth it if I could see a change in her, and she was going out and having a good time - gaining some self-confidence, but she's not.

I know if I go back to my mum with this she's going to be devastated and equally I'm not sure how to talk to my sister as everything I say she gets defensive and shuts down.

I'm really sorry for the essay, I just don't know where to turn!

If she's always been solitary & without friends perhaps she genuinely doesn't realise that her behaviour might be unacceptable. No friends to feed back to her & parents that indulged her. She needs to learn how to take responsibility & pay her way. She may well have some sort of borderline personality disorder or high-functioning Asperger's or something. Perhaps your parents indulged her because they realised she was slightly different.

Of course it was worth it to her. She didn't have to bloody pay for it.

DH is coming to pick me up from work, we're going to head to the beach and watch the sunset. Always calms me down to be near the ocean and look out at the beautiful view.

I don't want to come at her from an annoyed position (and I am annoyed, because I've been stewing it over all day), because I'll just end up having a go at her and she'll sulk and retreat into herself even more. Want to try and see if she's happy and how she thinks this is all going to work in future.

I also wonder if she could have Aspergers. I would contact whatever student support the University has, and try to get her some counselling. You might want to inform yourself about Asperger's this might be a good starting place. If you can get her to do this test it might help.

Clam I have read the thread properly thank you, I just am finding it hard to not emphathise a little with the little sister, as I totally disagree that feeling an outsider in a family is quote on quote 'self indulgent nonsense', but let's just agree to disagree on that one.

I am not saying she is behaving in a mature or good way, but it does sound like she has just not yet grown up. And some people are still emotionally immature and childish in their 30s. But at the same time, no one seems to be clearly setting boundaries down with her with consequences.

Her parents should clearly set out what they are and are not willing to pay for, instead of giving her money they can't afford, and the OP seems understandably frustrated at this situation, but I can't help feeling she needs to sit down and not rant at her, but just calmly and clearly set out what she will and won't accept and tell her what will happen if the sister oversteps the mark. (E.g. I am angry that you have been abusing the internet we have at home as this is affecting DHs job searching, since you have internet at uni I expect you to not use our wifi at home and if I find you doing that again I confront you with your behaviour and ask you to pay for that month's bill).

Happy you do seem like a kind and caring sister.

I thik snooter is right, there is some sort of disorder which has caused her to be like this. Females are far harder to diagnose because they manage to fit in well enough to not be a problem for schools.

Nevertheless, you need to get tough. She is completely self focused, the world revolves around her and you are letting it. She never gets too hungry because you cook her a meal. She sleeps when she wants to because she stays on the internet all night. I suggest you make the next lot of internet passworded so she doesn't have access to it at all. She's used her allowance up. She get off her backside and make it into uni to do any research she needs to.

I wouldn't worry about her not living on campus, it's not the norm in Australia as it is in the UK. Most students live at home and apply to their local universities. One thing to bear in mind is that now that she is in Australia, she won't be considered resident in the UK for study. So she will be a foreign student here as well, unless she lives here for 3 years for a purpose other than studying. You need to tell her that if she doesn't pull her finger out, she will risk missing out the chance of study at uni in both Australia and in the UK.

If you're watching the sunset over the water at the beacg you are either in Adelaide or in Perth. Which one?

She was enabled by her parents to do nothing, and taking no responsibility.

She does nothing.

She is depressed because she does nothing.

You could easily fall into the habit of behaving like your parents- she is treating you as she treated them, but without the active rudeness, as she doesnt dare go that far.

The ONLY solution is to tell her what you expect, and tell her what the consequences are if she doesnt fit in.

I would start off with smaller ones eg no internet, no dinner etc, and move on to throwing her out if necessary.

By the way, nobody is in loco parentis- she is 19 at least. She needs to start growing up.

Dear Happy

Just a thought, you're in Perth right ? Depending on what type of driving licence your sister has ( if she has one ) could she use some of her money to buy an old car or get herself some driving lessons. Perhaps if she felt she had more independence, then she would be more inclined to go to uni, meet up with any friends she has made and ok use the uni computers . Hope things get sorted out Clare

DIY Yes we're in Perth instagr.am/p/QzHxUwrcNL/

Thanks for all the comments, I will have a read of the websites once I get back in the office tomorrow (tricky on my phone & no Internet at home )

She actually already has a car, we bought this for her before she arrived so she'd be able to get around. We even bought a Tom Tom so she would be able to find her way around, so lack of transport isn't an issue for her (although paying to put petrol in might be!)

I'm hoping she'll come home before we go to bed tonight so I can talk her through things, but as she's so nocturnal I'm not holding my breath!

Remove the bedside lamp(s) and hide her xbox - in short do whatever you have to do to stop her playing the night away so that she can start fitting in with your household's usual hours.

It sounds as if your dps had their hands full with your db and maybe they've pandered to her because they felt she didn't her fair share of attention but, if this is the case, they've done her no favours.

Now she's an adult she needs to start functioning in the real world and learn that life is what she makes it. If she's a bright girl, she should catch on quick.

If "some people are still emotionally immature and childish in their 30s," then, unless they have SN, it's because they've been allowed to be. All the more reason to get this sorted now.
If it turns out that she is on the spectrum in some way/has Aspergers/whatever, then that could explain why she appears to have no empathy towards others. But it doesn't mean you can't tell her your thoughts on the situation and lay down ground rules for living in your home.

By the way, happy your lovely picture of the Australian sunset might 'out' you in RL.

I hope that you can find a solution, DBil is about to turn 25 and although he did actually complete his masters he has spent the years since on his xbox and wow.

Mil pesters him about doing something with his life and he resorted to lying to her, she thinks he has a PGCE and has been for numerous job interviews. He said he couldn't help his DSis with her postgrad work because he was too busy with his own and has told his Mum he passed on his lessons plans to DP (who is doing a PGCE this year). He even says to me that he doesn't play wow when we have mutual friends that he plays with who funny enough comment on how he spends 18hrs a day online!
Your DSis sounds like a similar character, very introverted, I actually think he is happy with his life, he needs a kick up the backside to re-engage with real life - I used to play a LOT of wow when I was pregnant and stuck at home, my second thought when hospitalised with pre-eclampsia was that I was meant to be leading a raid that eve.

I don't play now because i have better things to do, I think taking away your DSis ability to play all night is a good step. She may well have missed too many lectures to be able to pass the year though? I would consider her dropping out now, working and starting again next year rather than to waste another load of fees.

clam Don't worry, I don't think anything I've said is unknown to anyone I know in RL. There's by far enough personal info on here already that anyone who knew me would know who it was

I think that your parents possibly have contributed significantly to how she is. It may have been quite hard for her in some ways, being at home on her own (similar age gap with my younger sister. I used to get irritated at how, as I saw it, she 'played' my parents, but the pay-off, which I only saw much later, was how needy and demanding and emotionally overbearing my mother was with her, and how pushed out and detached my father was. Took a long time for my sister to sort out).

But, whatever, you are where you are. I think support with strong boundaries is the key. I second the idea of controlling access to the internet (at all times, not just at night). Let her negotiate her usage by having to ask either you or DH.

I would impress on her that, whatever her shyness, a non-negotiable condition of living with you is that she is courteous to your DH. He sounds as though he has been very understanding so far, but really, she lives in his home, he helps to subsidise her and she doesn't really speak to him? Hell, no.

Of course, to give her the benefit of the doubt, she might think that staying out of your way, by staying in her room, is being helpful. You need to explain exactly what your expectations are, therefore.

I completely understand .. i'm the eldest with two brothers, but my youngest is 14 years younger than me and 11 years younger than our other brother, so always the ' baby' of the family . He had a totally different upbringing to us, was allowed anything he wanted and never expected to even tidy his toys, let alone get a part time job at working age (as we were expected to do despite also working for a degree and being on apprenticeships)
He never left his room, and even when he got a girlfriend she just holed up in there with him (after meals cooked for them, they would leave the plates outside his bedroom door) it used to make my blood boil even though i love him so much.
He truly had a sense of entitlement .... however, he was also unhappy, anxious and a loner and struggled a lot with everyday tasks .... what changed this ? We staged a mass intervention, we've always been close so one day we had a long, long conversation where i told him in no uncertain terms he was sponging off the parents, rude and lazy and he needed to grow up. At the same time the parents had a massive row with the girlfriend and she moved out, and he followed her ..... he then had to fend for himself (with the occasional TESCO delivery from the parents) and found that living without someone doing everything for you was shite ! Because no one was there any more to 'pick up the pieces' he enrolled on a course and got a part time job ~making loads of friends in the process (he also didn't make friends easily at school )
I can happily say that now at the grand old age of 23 he has a degree, a great job in London and despite every now and then getting ' a bit down' has totally turned his life around. I now live abroad, but we are closer than ever and i'm so proud of him !
Basically, there is light at the end of the tunnel, but you will have to be tough, it's worth it, i promise xxx
(sorry this was soooo long lol !)

Did you both discuss a leaving date with your sister upon her arrival into your home?.

What Eldrich wrote was very interesting, I have also seen with regards to the ILs an overbearing mother and her husband who has been basically pushed by her to the sidelines.

Small wonder your brother's fiance kicked her out; your sister is continuing to freeload. Where are the consequences for her actions now?. Her parents have just enabled her to the hilt (as my ILs have done with my BIL and its got them nowhere either. They are now dealing with a situation completely outside their life experience and have no idea of what to do. Infact they are prolonging the agonies concerned by ignoring it and firefighting as tensions arise) and you're now doing the same.

Your parents are the root cause of her behaviour just as they enabled her elder brother they have enabled her and bailed her out all the time.

You being the eldest was trusted, date I say left, to get on with it which you did. I would not protect your parents in this situation.

The trouble with computer-based interactions is that they are a bad stand-in for real friendships. They don't give people the same perspective or the same fun that leaving the house does. It's too easy to turn on and type, and too hard to get out and do.

The trouble is that, in this case, it sounds like your supportive and lovely family are actually making a situation far, far worse. It sounds to me like your sister might have a social anxiety issue. The addiction to the computer would fit: maybe she craves human company, but just finds it too difficult to interact with people in real life. So she's addicted to computer interactions instead. The trouble is, with your family all so willing to put everything on the line to help, she is cocooned in her own world, and isn't having to confront the realities of her situation, financially or emotionally. Basically, what you're describing is a family who are 100% committed to codependency - which will only lead to heartache and pain on all sides in the long run. Helping people who are addicted to something to get more of the same, and to evade their real-life responsibilities doesn't work with drugs. It doesn't work with alcohol. And it doesn't work with social anxieties either.

I would change the strategy immediately. Sit her down gently and explain that you are worried about her. Maintain the (admirable) patience that you've exercised up to now, and try not to be accusatory, but explain that, while you know she doesn't mean it to, her behaviour is having quite a negative impact on your lives. Explain that, while there's nothing wrong with computer interactions, all things are best in moderation and that they can't substitute for real life fun with friends. Tell her that you are concerned about her long-term future, her chances of getting a job in a competitive world, and her losing her youth staring at a screen. Ask her if she would consider seeking professional help from the campus counsellor (there should be a free service). She needs to do some work to identify why she acts this way (does she fear rejection? did she have experiences with bullying at school? what is it about social interactions that scares her? Whatever it is, she needs to talk about it).

I also think that constantly pandering to someone with this does NOT help. Sometimes a bit of tough love is needed. I therefore think it would be reasonable to negotiate a 'deal' with her that will help her achieve balance... i.e. to say 'OK, I understand that the computer is important to you, but I can't have you using the internet up, because I need it to run my life, and you need to deal with your responsibilities too, like turning up to all the lecturers mum and dad are paying for. I am going to ask you to limit your use to 2 hours a day, and I am going to turn it off after 11pm at night - the moment that clock strikes, it's off, no ifs or buts. I understand that this might seem scary, but I also want to see you having fun, and I think limiting your internet time will help you.' You'll probably get a VERY defensive response (you normally do when you take away something that someone is addicted to). Keep smiling, don't get frustrated, but be gently insistent that this isn't normal or responsible adult behaviour. Good luck!

Or just give her a kick up the arse

We ended up watching the sunset and then getting a Nandos, so was perfectly calm by the time she came home from university at 9pm!

DH retreated to our bedroom to give us a chance to talk, and she did come and sit with me instead of going straight to her room which was different. I basically asked her if she was happy (she said she was) whether she was enjoying university (it's ok) and if she did like living here in Australia (it's ok). I told her we were worried about the amount of time she was spending alone in her room on her computer, it wasn't healthy and she needed to get out and meet real people. She said the people online are 'real' and that's where she's happiest. Apparenlty there is 'nothing to do here' and it's not easy to make friends. She blamed not having any money as the major reason she doesn't do anything (yet didn't really want to do anything about this). She talked a lot about being in her 'comfort zone' and said she didn't like to do anything outside of it. She has a total fear of the unknown and will not force herself into doing anything that she doesn't know.

I asked her where she sees her future. She said she doensn't know - she hasn't found her 'passion' yet. I asked her whether she thought I was 'passionate' about my job (I'm not by the way) and she said, well no, but it seemed easy and I was well paid for it (!) She doesn't want to do a 'rubbish' job for little money (i.e. work in a supermarket, waitressing, shop work etc) she wants a 'well paid office job'. I tried to explain that she's not going to get a well paid office job with zero work experience, to which her answers started becoming less like words and more like 'hmmmm'.

I told her she needed to spend more time outside her room and to talk to DH more, she had to become a member of our household if she intended to keep living with us.

I suggested that she has another look at the clubs and socities at university and see if there is anything she'd like to join, I also said she should look at volunteering at animal shelters (she said she wants to work with animals) on a Saturday - just to get her out into the real world. I wasn't met with much enthusiasm to much of this - but she told me she doesn't get enthusiastic about anything because she's always considering the 'pros and cons'.

To be honest it did feel like I was going round in a giant circle and getting nowhere fast. I told her about turning the internet off overnight, which as you can imagine she wasn't impressed about. She said why would I do that now that it's unlimited, and I 'wasn't to limit her otherwise I'd annoy her' - I told her life's annoying! I was doing it for her own good, she had to go to bed at a normal time and not be up all night. She just kept saying I'd annoy her - I said I didn't care and if she wanted to chat she had her iphone - to which she responded 'but that will cost me money'!!! Yep, you couldn't make this up! So I said hard luck, until you contribute to living here and paying for the internet then she didn't get a say in when it was turned on.

She started to sulk at this point so I pulled her off the sofa and gave her a hug, told her I loved her and that I was doing it to help her. She said 'I know' and seemed a little better.

So - who knows?! She did get up at 7.30am this morning to head out to her lectures at 8.30am so that's some kind of progress!

I am tended to agree with most people now though, I don't think she has mental health problems particularly - she's just been pandered to her whole life and has turned into quite a selfish individual who doesn't think about anyone other than herself.

Morning Happy, that is progress! Let's hope it continues. Stick to your guns and keep insisting on your "rules". Cruel to be kind and all that

Any thoughts yet on how next year's uni fees will be paid?

Hi Toomany She told me last night that she has got a job at a supermarket and starts on Thursday. Apparently my brothers fiance saw the job and passed her details on without her knowing, they called her up and offered her 10 hours a week. So that's something! I'm hoping she'll be able to get nearer her 20 hours a week and get a few more hours in the run up to Christmas but you never know.

It's not really going to scratch the surface of the $10k needing to be paid in February, but should be a few $'s towards it. Will have to see how she goes over the next month or so to see if she's taken on board what I've said.

I'm making a list of all the organisations she can volunteer for in Perth (there are loads) most only want a few hours a week or fortnight, so although it's not paid I do want her to do something like this as it will teach her some life skills.

I'm also going through the clubs and socities list on the Uni website and will see if I can persuade her to give any of them a go. She said Archery might be fun so will see if there is a group for that.

My next stage of making her grow up is to insist that she has one activity/interest outside of her bedroom!