Narcissist?

[BabylonPI]

Is there a straightforward definition please?
Is there a list of narcissistic tendencies or traits

I hear the term a lot these days and a lot on here, but I don't know what it is/means.

Thank you.

Babylon, I don't actually know, but my experience of counselling and of the counsellors I know - several friends - makes me think it unlikely that a counsellor would tell one half of a couple that their partner is a narc, or is anything tbh, but might say "that's rather unreasonable" or, as happened in one of my own sessions "is it possible that X might be showing signs of dementia? Do you think that might be worth checking?" A far cry from making and communicating an actual dx. I also think that if she thought I would use that possibility as a weapon against X she probably wouldn't have said it, either.

springy,I have been pondering what would be a positive note for "I am not a narc" and I cant come up with what it would be.
Perhaps "I am emotionally normal" ?

Thanks GB! ummm thought another diagnosis was being added? Wonder if UK version will have differences when/if that comes out? Little mouse told me a new one was being added?

Yes amillion Micheal LOL!

Springy its called iPlayer...ds only allows BBC radio 2 on TV when awake...tbh you would not find it like most of society...maybe a tad boring or light watching compared to what you have described in past.

iplayer wasn't a reality when I was bringing up my kids

nah, I am not a narc will do it for me

Feeling temporarily brave enough to attempt proper replies to Springy and Sea (thanks, beer!)

Sea, there's a blog somewhere on the DSM5 website, with tons of pages about the PD question. I found one for another thread, couple of months ago, which was very illuminating on the tweaks that are being made and why. Sorry I didn't bookmark it.

I am heartened to hear about the 'personailty traits'. I understand there's a lot of daggers-in-the-night politics over each DSM, especially in the psychiatric areas, so this will always be under dispute. We all find our favourites and I often refer to John Oldham's work on personality. He was one of the team that originally defined personality disorders. He's always been clear that PDs are best understood as distortions - caricatures - of the 'normal' personality. It is a spectrum and, since personalities are multi-dimensional, more of a scattergram than a bar chart. DSM5 makes the first serious attempt to encompass this multi-dimensionality. While it'll take a PD diagnosis away from some patients, it will simultaneously allow for diagnosis (and, thus, treatment) of others whose personalities are dysfunctional but not an exact fit for the PD criteria :)

In any case, the members of psychforums, after fulminating over DSM5 for years, seem reasonably happy with the current revision so let's hope it goes into practice successfully!

Springy, assuming one can get away with reasonably superficial relations with a Narcissist, I'm all in favour of interactions that will work. It's no different from dealing with any other person whose take on reality looks inaccurate to us. We do it with children all the time and admire their rich imaginary life! With a bit of study around a person's individual foibles (and likely diagnosis), we can meet their needs and speak their 'language'. It seems to me a kindness. And we are the ones who must make the effort, because our thinking is flexible where theirs is not.

Before learning about PDs and assorted other forms of mental difference, I thought I could 'manage' disordered people by bending myself to fit their world view. Needless to say, I came off much the worse for my uninformed attempts. These days I'm better at it, I think, and am also very careful to avoid involvement. I'm a lot more grounded. As long as I don't expect the dysfunctional person to like me, I don't get upset

I don't know of any way to keep it up over extended periods. I can manage a week-long visit, for example, or a business meeting. But the thought of working for another loon like my last (classic NPD) boss makes me want to die! If such a dreadful thing were to be unavoidable, I think the best I could do would be to channel a compliant, grey mouse. That's so far from my real personality, it would probably damage me - but not as much as my time with Mad Boss did before.

Sorry, Springy, this has been rambly and probably not much help. Want to write any more about the potential situation which bothers you?

To this day I can't get my head around it - it is one mighty headfuck being on the end of it.

this

i found the description of what a narcissists childhood would look like over simplistic too. that childhood wouldn't necessarily lead to narcissism and is probably characteristic of all sorts of people's upbringings. it certainly describes many features of my childhood and the kind of problems i had to deal with as a result re: people can't be trusted and it is dangerous to have needs. but i'm not a narcissist. it's like saying abusers will have been raised by abusers who did x, y and z thus teaching their children that x, y and z are normal and so they do the same. the fact is that not all people raised by abusers go on to be abusers - some do, they unquestioningly repeat the pattern but many, many others identify their parents ways as wrong and determine never to repeat them and go on to be great parents as a result of their experiences.

their must be an element of nature, even if it is just intelligence for example, being born with a mind that can stand back, observe and question or compares and contrast with other people/situations/ways of being. and people tend to underplay the role that others play - as in people outside of the immediate family. a loving grandparent, a friend's house that you played at a lot and saw a totally different family, even fictional characters in the books you read or on tv. some children will see their family is 'wrong' and will grow up in opposition to the example they are being shown. of course it will damage them but their resistance means it doesn't swallow them into the madness.

they like i did will probably be the ones who go on to have the official mental health problems ironically because they're the ones who will reach out and seek help. they know it wasn't normal, they feel hurt by it, they see how it has damaged them. there is, imo, a world of difference between having mental health problems and being 'mad'. mad people don't know they're mad! they don't seek help because there is nothing wrong with them and all they have to do is control everyone and everything around them and if they can secure themselves a place in a family and control everyone in it they will go completely under the radar of wider society and only the poor people who have to live with them will really get to see their madness.

gawd that sounds paranoid.

i don't like the idea that childhood x leads to disorder y. childhood x certainly is bloody hard and painful and twisted but what it leads to really depends on that child - they're not just a blob in a vacuum with their mother - they're a person and one who will have many more influences than just home and they have resources of their own such as their temperament, their intelligence levels, their capacity for imagination and reasoning and escapism etc etc. even whether they were born attractive and with an endearing voice could make all the difference due to teachers or other adults taking a liking to them and showing them approval. being articulate and able to reason could make all the difference. having a vivid imagination and daydreaming could save them. even very trivial seeming things belong to the individual child and influence their fate.

i loved my grandad and held tight to him and he loved me. he would say very simple things like, "in one ear and out the other" quietly in my ear whilst madness was ensuing from my mother or she was spouting horrible stuff at me. who knows what a difference that made. he was secure, predictable and his love was not conditional - their were no eggshells and landmines around him and i soaked that up as much as i soaked up my mother's mad world. and i later found out he was beaten awfully as a child and certainly didn't get the rosy childhood one supposedly needs to be a decent person. he was another, despite living before television and self help book culture, whose hard childhood made him into an extremely loving, kind and good person rather than what the textbook would assume.

people vary in their responses - what makes one man a psychopath can spur another to compassion and benevolence. it is a part of what convinces me that we are not just blank slates to be written on.

springydaffs

swallowedAfly,I agree with what you write.
I grew up in a certain home situation,not with narcissis,that I think made me stronger,whereas it made another person weaker.

channel a compliant, grey mouse

I did do that. Like a fool, and after a break, I stepped back into my family's mad world. Our ancient mother was getting iller and iller and the pressure was on to step back into the family, for her sake. So I did it, thinking I could do the grey mouse (or plank) thing, keeping them at a distance. It didn't work. I went down so fast. They also had some punishing to do, to right the balance in response to my abscenting myself for a while (though I hadn't announced it, I had just slipped away). Interacting with people like this is not passive - they have a score to settle because they know you aren't one of them and you are therefore a threat. They will do all in their (considerable) power to destroy you - it's personal.

My strong instinct is to run for the hills. And I think it's important to go with that - even typing the above and I'm shaking. I don't know how you can look into the whys and wherefores, garlic (each to his own though, of course) - I just want to RUN and blank them out; turn to the real world, healthy reality, and focus on that. There's plenty of that about and I'd rather have that in my mind's eye, my focus, than to focus on the dark, incomprehensible, terrifying world of the narc.

To classify narcissism as a mental health disorder, is to medicalise it. So, to say oh dear he is bipolar a narcissist he cannot help it.

A person who is bipolar cannot control their brain chemistry. A narcissist cannot be cured/stablilised by neurochemistry the way bipolars are. The fact that a narcissist has no insight into their behaviour and has zero empathy for the people around them I don't think absolves them from the responsiblity of trying.

Narcissism is about excessive pride. ( This is the problem of our 'modern' society, where we move away from concepts like original sin, and personal responsibility and instead use 'society' or 'other forces' to explain stuff). Schizophrenia and other mental health issues are beyond the control of their sufferers.

(fucked if I will see narcissists as helpless victims! Even though I understand that underneath their issues lie a lot of suffering and hurt, and require very gentle and supportive therapy to move beyond)

My boss in my last proper job was not a narc but something was wrong, big time. I did my best to step around her but it was useless, impossible to manage her - mainly because the ground shifted endlessly, there was no way to manage her or her ways. I thought I was ok with it, particularly as it was my dream job; that I could manage even her total unreliability (in every possible way), but I couldn't. I haven't worked since. I don't think I'm unemployable but I have been so mashed up by narcs that coming within the orbit of someone who is disordered sends me into a major spin, it seems.

My boss in my last proper job was not a narc but something was wrong, big time. I did my best to step around her but it was useless, impossible to manage her - mainly because the ground shifted endlessly, there was no way to manage her or her ways. I thought I was ok with it, particularly as it was my dream job; that I could manage even her total unreliability (in every possible way), but I couldn't. I haven't worked since. I don't think I'm unemployable but I have been so mashed up by narcs that coming within the orbit of someone who is disordered sends me into a major spin, it seems.

don't know what happened there.

Some mental health issues,there are some ways to help yourself.
Not sure about narcissism.My feeling is yes,they can help themselves a bit,but a. I am not one, and b.is there anyone anywhere who has been able to help themselves become better behaved. If narc is on a scale,then are there some narcs who are less narcissistic. I'd like to think so.

"Interacting with people like this is not passive - they have a score to settle because they know you aren't one of them and you are therefore a threat. They will do all in their (considerable) power to destroy you - it's personal"

I think this is true, Springdaffs. And I think this is partly because if you are capable of love (something unavailable to an N) I think OTOH they may wish to gain access to this (via their victim) but cannot obtain and so need to destroy, the vampire aspect if you like. So, your existence is a threat, its like wanting to destroy you because they recognise that love and everything good that comes with that power and experience is not something available to them. Living a loveless existence is ultimately bleak and Ns can be very bleak.

Springdaffs, I am sorry you are having this realisation with your own children, I wonder how you are coping with that, with all the insights that you have. FWIW, I do think there is a mixture of nature and nurture probably, and I do suspect there may be an inheritable aspect, a bit like autism.

In my limited experience Ns are often very intelligent, I have always been very puzzled by that particular factor ...

thank you, jane. I'm not coping, clearly! very low at the moment, which is obvious from my posts. this too shall pass and all that. It always does. so onward and upward! (not bravado or denial - I do believe this. focusing on the positive etc. You have to have hope!)

I agree there is an element of nurture - and I could certainly list influences from the off with my kids; also my husband ( and his father). I sometimes wonder if just being exposed to the N dynamic does its diabolical work, regardless....

as for nature: things weren't right from when she was born. I worried about her, underneath.

Darling Springy, I am very sorry you're feeling all your trauma so acutely at the moment.

It will pass, with some quiet time and a lot of self-love. You will gain a barrier of sorts - sometimes more like the membrane of an eggshell; at other times like a duvet; sometimes a thick stone wall. I think these are the times when it's appropriate to consider coping strategies (and even whether any are viable). The raw times are for working on our own pain and rebuilding the love & respect we have for ourselves. Friends and therapy are essential, imo.

If I've made it sound as though I'm 'better', I've misrepresented the state of things. Nearly every aspect of my life screams 'traumatised' ... well, it does to anyone with enough insight. To most, it screams 'loser' or, at best, 'odd'! We're in different phases, is all.

I'm glad you had your grandad. Keep talking :)

oh you sweetheart you made me cry!

I wish it was me with the grandad. I've wondered about that, about making up a past with all the right stuff in (only half-joking...!). I've written about things in my past and, to make the story not quite so lumbering, changed some of the details. I now can't quite remember the 'real' details! So perhaps I could pretend I had an imaginary 'healthy person' in my life - you know, flesh said person out like an author...

As for sad loser - well, join the club, dearest. YOu gotta laff

Oh dear, I gave you SAF's grandad

Maybe not such a bad idea, anyway! I do have an array of imaginary sane people in my head, Springy, ranging from an idealised version of my Gran (who did, at least, love me unconditionally) through various therapists and friends, to wiser versions of myself. We all use inner dialogue continuously - the only difference between someone like me and therapy-free individuals is that therapy teaches us to become aware of it and use it constructively.

So, yeah, go ahead and build your inner guru!
xx

janelikesjam brought up the point that narcs seem to be very brainy. I too have thought the same and wondered why.
It is like as though you cannot be a narc unless you are brainy?

I don't think that's the case, amillion. They're just as likely to be thick as other members of the public!

Sociopaths are disproportionately represented at the higher levels of business and government, most likely because they have no qualms about doing whatever's needed to gain and retain power. In short, this doesn't mean they're brighter than those below them; just nastier.

In everyday life they can seem exceedingly clever to those around them, whose perceptions they twist and whom they outwit by gaslighting and manipulation. In reality, they're more tricky than smart. It often happens in my groups that a member will share something their "very intelligent" narc has written or done, and it looks to the rest of us like the work of a pompous ass (which it is!) The partner believes them to be very intelligent, only because that's what their narc wants them to believe.

maybe it's more that only brainy narcs make their way into your world? i wouldn't say my mother was particularly intelligent though certainly knowledgeable and very useful on geography and mythology. her reasoning is fucked really. then again i'm aware that what some people call intelligence i don't - for example i can't think of someone as intelligent if they have no concern and empathy for others - to me that's an integral part of intelligence.

There are different sorts of intelligence are'nt there.
There are some people with brains and virtually no emotional intelligence.
But people with the emotional intelligence do tend to be brainy as well.

because that's true intelligence. i don't think being 'brainy' at something equates to intelligence - it can be that someone has an obsessive interest or a talent for remembering things or whatever. a truly intelligent person will have empathy and ethics imo.