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Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

Narcissist?

175 replies

BabylonPI · 29/09/2012 16:13

Is there a straightforward definition please?
Is there a list of narcissistic tendencies or traits

I hear the term a lot these days and a lot on here, but I don't know what it is/means.

Thank you.

OP posts:
sookiesookie · 29/09/2012 22:54

If and when those posters who dismiss the 'narc' theory do eventually come up against one i will be the last in line to offer help. thats a shame.

I have people who didn't believe my ex was violent, cause he 'was such a nice guy'. If they got beaten up by their partner I would support them with no second thought.

I am truly sorry you feel that way.

kickassangel · 29/09/2012 22:58

It's important to remember that they will rarely be able to sustain any meaningful long term relationships, so looking at family and friendship circles can help. There will tend to be either fairly shallow long term relationships or short intense ones, often with quite bitter fall out. They just won't form an emotional bind.

Even where they do live someone, it will be more about what they get from the relationship. Eg a parent may be great at doing fun stuff with the kids, but will quickly lose patience if the child wants attention when the parent wants to do their own thing. Because they do the fun stuff they will believe that they have done their bit and are great with the kids.

Often caused by lack of genuine attachment to anyone in childhood, particularly seems to be associated with an overbearing parent. They get so used to being the object that the parent controls that they in turn view others as objects

CharlotteCollinsislost · 29/09/2012 23:02

sookie, I only meant that I didn't think I could get a diagnosis by that route! It would be nice to know if he is. But seems difficult to find out.

That last psychiatrist link, the first one otcha posted - all the stuff about right and wrong being movable, relative to them. Scary stuff if he's influencing your dcs...

sookiesookie · 29/09/2012 23:06

I think the main issue with 'a cure' is that as it is a mental health issue, it will generally always be there or at least a risk of relapse and as narcs are also excellent at deception. They could hide a relapse for longer than say someone with bi-polar. Which is why (like ted bundy for example) they get away with being a serial killer for so long, in those cases.

It gives them everything they need (deciding over someones life, power etc) and they can easily deceive you into thinking they are a wonderful human being. They could act 'cured' for an amount of time. Fooling everyone into thinking they are wonderful again.

Sorry for referring to serial killers again. When it comes to narcs, the criminal narcs are the area i know more about.

kickassangel · 29/09/2012 23:06

And remember that a true narc will have all the traits of a personality disorder as well as those specific to narcs. Can't do links ATM but there are some good medical websites about this.

EdwardorEricCantDecide · 29/09/2012 23:09

I once heard narcissism described as:
"An unnatural interest in oneself"
I think that sums it up quite well.

CharlotteCollinsislost · 29/09/2012 23:11

If anyone can do links, I'd like to look into that - the general traits of a personality disorder.

UnlikelyAmazonian · 30/09/2012 00:53

sookie : alot of the most heinous killers of our times have been diagnosed as such. Really? Diagnosed? Where did you get this information from?

arghhhmiddleage · 30/09/2012 01:24

It needs to be diagnosed by a psychiatrist. The term is overused, particularly around here. There is no "cure" for any personality disorder - it is just that, a fundamental part of the personality.

garlicnutty · 30/09/2012 01:28

Conscientiously staying out of this thread for the reasons UA cited. I see the nit-picking has already begun. Babylon, I thought SAF's summary on the first page was concise and helpful - also the point about 'method acting' or plugging into another's personality (I think of it as feeding off the other).

I have an idea of why you might be asking. I would think it's a possibility. Please remember you don't need a psych diagnosis in order to use your understanding of personality disorders to help you manage interactions with a person of unusually rigid character.

As a throwaway to this thread in general: the NPD diagnosis is toast as of next year. Instead there are Personality Disorders and Personality Traits. Traits can be diagnosed as pathological without a PD diagnosis. So that kills off the tedious argument that rages all over this forum :)

garlicnutty · 30/09/2012 01:34

it is just that, a fundamental part of the personality

No, it's not, it's a fundamental disorder of the personality. All of it, not part of it.
Roughly speaking, a disordered personality is one that has only a few parts (or just a single aspect). Instead of being multi-faceted and flexible, the personality is inflexible and one-dimensional. That's the pathology.

... really am staying out now.

arghhhmiddleage · 30/09/2012 01:44

Yes, OK, you put it far better than I did :). I was just trying to make the point that it is intrinsic, and not "curable".

I should know better than to wade in on such stuff here.

garlicnutty · 30/09/2012 01:49

:) cheers, ama.

arghhhmiddleage · 30/09/2012 01:54

:)

springydaffs · 30/09/2012 02:00

I think people are born with it, it's not necessarily nurture. somewhere along the autism spectrum or something? I don't know that much about it from the textbooks, only an awful lot from being mashed up. To this day I can't get my head around it - it is one mighty headfuck being on the end of it.

amillionyears · 30/09/2012 07:54

If a person is born with it,presumably unfortuneately,it can be inherited and passed on to the next generation?

Salbertina · 30/09/2012 08:03

I think it's both- can lie dormant if compassionate supportive upbringing or not if not!

sookiesookie · 30/09/2012 08:12

Unlikey I have come across it in many ways. Usually when looking into information on them.
Ted Bundy - several professionals have said he was a narc and he fits the mould quite snuggly.

Brian Blackwell (killed both parents after racking up huge debts them, whole their bodies lay in the house took his gf on The holiday of a lifetime) - again there was testimony in court for the mental health team that spent time assesing him that he is a narc.

Stephen Griffiths (killed and dismemebered 3 women, one in full view of cctv then he acknowledge the camera)- again, court testimony after he was placed in a secure mental health unit. The testimony again was a diagnosis. Again he fir the mould quite perfectly.

Neil Entwhistle (British born man shot his wife a baby daughter in the US and fled back to the UK. He was in huge amount of debts and was lying about his 'success' and rent a house he could not afford, led his old to think he had a successful business but was living on credit) again shows narc traits. However i can not find proof of an actual diagnosis. But when looking into the case, i think the chances are high.
when I am on my laptop would you like me to put a list of every serial killer for you?

I also came across this claims stalker is a narc

Crap source I know, it his popped up.

Again I didn't say all narcs and these are all extreme cases.

Most narcs do not commit violent crime.

amillionyears · 30/09/2012 08:30

Do the people in their real lives realise they are narcs,or does it take time to realise?
Is it obvious to outsiders,such as the newsagent,where they buy their daily paper?

sookiesookie · 30/09/2012 08:40

Is it obvious to outsiders,such as the newsagent,where they buy their daily paper? I think in most cases they can fool people, especially in the short term.
As pp said they tend to have long but not very involved relationships or short intense ones.

colleysmill · 30/09/2012 08:45

amillionyears my ex has a psychiatric diagnosis of NPD.

From what I remember of the 3 years of hell that was my life when I was with him, most people adored him on first meeting, it was only as they got to know him better that you got feeling that something wasn't quite right although most couldn't put their finger on what that was.

swallowedAfly · 30/09/2012 09:08

it is often more obvious to the people who fall foul of the narc. in a family they tend to be the master manipulator who has all the power. they triangulate, they divide and rule, they identify a child as the 'golden' child who can do no wrong and who they can tend to be smothering of as an extension of them and the scapegoat child who gets all their bad stuff projected onto them. they don't allow their children to be people - as in 'whole little beings growing into their own selves' - they label them and decide who they are, what they do and why they do it and won't be shaken any evidence. for example if the scapegoat went onto to be an absolutely lovely, successful person it wouldn't change their view of them as deviant/bad/unloveable/etc it would just be that other people didn't know them like the narc did.

they create such weird dynamics that it is hard for the other members of the family to ever really communicate with each other properly and put together the pieces. the golden child and scapegoat are set against each other. it is often easier for the scapegoat to escape and see the narc for what they are as they at least have some distance whereas the golden child is so swamped by the narc parent it's hard to disentangle themselves and they may end up very bound to approval in their lives with their whole sense of self worth being based on being 'the good one', the one who is right, better etc. it's hard for them to individuate and go on to live their own life with their own values.

their rage isn't necessarily violent by the way - it can be like tantrums or causing scenes, sulking, acting like a child with a lot of power.

when it comes to children ime they can be very good with young children but struggle when they start to get their own personalities and deviate from what the narc has decided they are and therefore how they should behave, be etc. when they start to assert needs or ways of their own the narc starts to find them hard to handle and rather than just being able to allow them to be different or have character trait x it becomes about what is 'wrong' or 'difficult' about the child.

the narc i grew up with has never once said sorry for anything - even a small petty thing. she will not ever acknowledge being wrong even if it means being utterly ridiculous and defending something they've said that is clearly, patently untrue - that or they'll say i never said that with an utterly straight face that appears like they believe it and is mind boggling for the person on the other end of it.

when i was young i always thought there was some real her in there somewhere if i could just get it to it somehow. as i got older i realised this was false. there really isn't a normal person in there with vulnerabilities and deeper thoughts and something under the denial and lies. she reads till she falls asleep - with the light on - she cannot bear to be 'empty' for one second. in many ways she seems (now i'm older and more detached from how it used to effect me) massively emotionally immature and 'faulty' for want of a better word. she is not like other people and normal communication, appeals to compassion, appeals to logic, whatever do NOT WORK! you're not dealing with someone who fairly and rationally engages with you or reality.

sorry epic ramble.

amillionyears · 30/09/2012 09:25

Thank you very much for the replies to my question.

swallowedafly Sad Sad
Presumably a narc cannot say sorry,because they believe themselves to be perfect,therefore they are never wrong,therefore there is no need to say sorry.
I presume that on a deeper level they do know they have got things wrong,and are daily trying to cover it all up.
They do seem to have narratives that they have to stick to,come what may.
They also sound like they are very bright people.
imo,very bright people often seem to be close to mental illness of some kind.
Are narcs content.Can they be?
This is why we cant judge people in life really isnt it.In some cases,we have no idea what is really going on,and in no way would we want to be that person.It sounds like they cannot really control their behaviour,or can they?
I am somewhat thinking as I post here.
swallowedafly,sending MN hugs,if that is all right with you.

BertieBotts · 30/09/2012 09:41

I just want to say thanks to those who post so knowledgeably and comprehensively in the face of all the "He's just a twat" postings. You've been very, very helpful to me in the past.

Nice to see you around UA, haven't seen you for a while. Still think of you and your DS often x

Salbertina · 30/09/2012 09:54

Ditto BB and Amillion, this is all so helpful.

Swallowed- your post about yr dm/family dynamic could have been mine!! So, so similar and helps validate my right to feel as I do however unfair or crazy it seems on outside. Scapegoat role us so horrible and the mere act of explaining if further entrenches it ifyjwim or else just makes one seem paranoid, no win either way!

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