Narcissist?

[BabylonPI]

Is there a straightforward definition please?
Is there a list of narcissistic tendencies or traits

I hear the term a lot these days and a lot on here, but I don't know what it is/means.

Thank you.

there is no win with a narcissist salber - and yeah no way to really explain them to others as it all sounds paranoid and mental. you just have to detach and observe and control your reactions - don't feed the animals

thanks amy but i'm alright. definite scapegoat here but in many ways a million times better off for it. when you're a kid the golden child position looks good, as an adult you see that it comes with it's own set of burdens and really twists the person and i suspect makes them more likely to be narcissists themselves - my sister certainly has a lot of my mum's 'traits'.

i am now a grown up - it was shitty as a kid and it does leave a lot of stuff to untangle but it is most definitely her shit not mine and whilst i still have my family in my life i keep pretty solid boundaries and i think it's been a long time since any of it has really been able to hurt me.

oh and bizarrely my son seems totally immune to her! it's amazing to watch - he has no fear of her and will call reality out without hesitation. not in a rude, bad way just in a loyal to reality kind of way and unphased by the games.

me and my sister will talk about going to grandma's house and he'll say, "and grandad's house, why do you say grannies house when it's grandad's house too?"

she tried to swamp him when he was younger and would not so subtly compete with me over my own child. it just rolled off of him. so far he seems immune to being played by her. we have a really solid, loving relationship that she can't dent.

Wow,I'm so pleased and impressed at how you have managed to cope.
I want to say more,but cant think what to say.
I think I am surprised how well and intact anybody can be coming out of that situation.

There is no need for it to be diagnosed by a psychiatrist IMO! Its like being with an alcoholic - if they are drinking 2 bottles of vodka a day for a year, you don't need a doctor to tell you what the problem is! The internet is a godsend for getting this kind of information and insight. It would be v. difficult to get a psychiatric diagnosis anyway, as most narcississts would run a mile from such a person or see it as sport to undermine them). There is lots of stuff on the internet and if the hat fits, well you know you have got a much clearer picture of your abusive partner/parent etc. (and they are abusive, make no mistake, they can't help it in their own minds).

There is however a distincition between NPD and simply having some narcisstic traits. NPD is a full-blown personality disorder (e.g. an ex of mine). Having narcissistic traits is less strong. I had/have a friend like this - just some of the traits - but not totally "heartless" in the NPD sense, just competitive, self-aggrandising, gets angry over trivial things etc.

No one really knows true cause...but the emotion recognition side there is an actual organic difference in brain with emotion recognition when MRI scans are done.
They have discovered on nurture side that no eye contact with the mum/parent/carer with firt 1-2 yrs results in pathways in brain not developing and this again could be a factor.

Springy it isn't on the Autism Spectrum but I do wonder if like auto immune disorders when their is one disorder in the family another occurs to ie one memeber has athritis and another diabetic that in this case where their is ASPD their is another family member with ASD...this seems to be the case in my ds and the df genes. ASPD has it's own Spectrum.

It was quoted in recent book by US psychologist that 1 in 25 people have a PD in US alone so it is quite common in society and everyone knows someone with it at different levels of the spectrum, it is just not often diagnosed as the individual will not seek help as they feel they don't need it as no insight. This is a shame as behavioural management is a good method in help people with PD manage how they interact with society.

The more I have read on PD the more I empathise. It is a difference in the brain caused by nature and/or nuture. The stigma attached to ASPD is much worse than any other condition as it only takes the very small % of serial murders/rapists/arsonists/child abusers to make it tough on the other much higher % of sufferers.

Nacissism when it is 'traits' of another PD seem to make the original PD condition worse/higher risk. I am guessing dual or double PD compounds and causes a more severe complex type of PD? These then are your potential murders etc

Porn was mentioned above.
Would anyone say that is quite a common issue in these situations as regards the narcissist?
Dont quite see why it would be,but not at all saying that it is not true.

i don't think there is necessarily a common link but i can see how if people are just objects then porn is easier to swallow as it were. there is stuff out there on how our society is narcissistic in nature and becoming increasingly so - that certainly ties in with porn - the ability to dehumanise the 'object' and use it for one's own pleasure without regard as to the real experience of the real people involved in pornography, the ability to shut down empathy for sexual release etc.

interesting stuff about the lack of eye contact - but then that is true of all sorts of conditions and mental health problems - it is basically that relationship, nurturing, being witnessed benevolently etc are all essential parts of healthy development. there's also the business of that simple mirroring of baby's emotions helps them to be able to process, recognise and handle emotion.

i suspect my mum was an alright mother for me as a baby and toddler maybe that's why i'm not more fucked up than i am? i also had a father, grandparents, a sibling, farm workers etc who would have interacted with me as a baby - not everything has to come from the mother obviously.

in terms of heredity versus nurture it's hard to say - i would say it ran in my mother's family amongst the women however they also have a lot of nurture/environment in common. they all lived in the then colonies, later the post-colonial territories. the children were often shipped off to hill stations, boarding schools etc and saw their parents a couple of times a year. my mother spent much of her childhood in a terrifying sounding jesuit boarding school. i also have thought about the way they'd have to be raised to not feel empathy to the people being exploited all around them and the poverty and to not feel guilty for their own affluence and privilege in the face of that. you'd have to learn a kind of blindness to others and suffering and some form of grandiosity surely to think your well being was merited somehow and not predicated upon their suffering and poverty? presumably the upper classes have to be indoctrinated this way too to be able to deny their privilege and feel that entitled?

dunno. blimey there's a lot of my waffle on here. sorry op!

I for one dont think it is at waffle,it is insightful and thought provoking in lots of ways.
In fact,it ticks a lot of boxes,concerning the person I know of.
Popele on MN say there can be a script with men who have affairs.There is a bit of a script with this too it seems.
Boarding schools can come in handy for a narcissistic parent.
Dont know much about them,but have always thought it means that a younger child in particular is not really getting enough time interacting with his or her relations.
And too much time exposed to who knows what?

oh gosh. I would come on the side of nature because it looks very much that at least one of my children is a full-blown narc (another with distinct narc traits). I can't really face it yet, not entirely, but the evidence is very clear. I could list her characteristics but find it too hard to - she is my dear girl, after all.

I will say though that her father was a full-blown narc, as is his father. I hold out for a miracle - I would! - and find the no-hope dx very hard to take. I have to say she doesn't have a drop of empathy for any living thing (again, I could list many scenario that bear this out) and is entirely in love with herself in a way that really is entire. Her father (exH) was breathlessly charming in a dear, sweet person kind of way. The home story was very different. I was married to him a long time ago and struggled to find any info about the kind of person he was, eventually finding some Sam Vaknin stuff that hit it square on the head - it was a huge relief. I am wary of 'diagnosing' this person or that person and, tbf, I'm a little tired of the whole narc thing. It looks very likely I was brought up in a family awash with narc traits but I am so heartily sick of the whole shebang (and of course have considered whether I am narc - how could I not be when we were marinaded in it? Perhaps having a very distinct scapegoat role - which runs to this day, despite all - saved me from the worst of it, in a bizarre way??). In the past I could be cut and dried about the whole narc thing and put whomever aside, but I can no longer do that when it involves my own child/ren.

See, I'm still not talking about 'it' (answer the q springy) but around it. I find it very hard to face.

ONe of the things that is such a headfuck is when they accuse you of traits they have. It does make you wonder! you wonder: is it me? am I really the one who is the narc here but I can't see it?

freaky, baby

Nature: A genetic marker for sociopathy has been established. It is not a diagnostic test.
Nurture: A child reared by sociopaths will learn un-social values and pattern self-serving behaviours.
Development: MRI scans show abnormal activity (inactivity) between the emotional and rational sectors of the sociopathic brain and restricted growth in some areas such as the hippocampus. Again, not diagnostic: autism and some other conditions give similar results.
Learning: Children reared by sociopaths learn sociopathic behaviours & thought patterns, even if they are emotionally 'normal'. This phenomenon is unofficially known as catching fleas.

Lovefraud on co-parenting with a sociopath.

springydaffs,I cant see how you are possibly narc.
If you have as much empathy and insight as you clearly do, then you cant be narc.
Garlicnuttys helpful post,particularly the fleas bit might mean you have one or two fleas! But you may already have got rid of them.

Thank you, this is all very helpful.

The reason I asked was double edged. Some of you may have read my other thread and yes, I was wondering about BIL possibly being a narc.

The other reason for asking is that mutual friends have been taking relate counselling separately; and the counsellor has allegedly stated that the DH in their relationship is a narc.

She has relayed this to her DH, he is devastated at being told this about himself - and I really don't know him well enough to comment.

Is it likely that a relate counsellor would tell one half of a couple that their other half is a narc?? I found that quite unprofessional, and I'm not sure whether I believe they have said this.

But thank you for all the responses.

Rather a lot of nonsense written here I am afraid: this is not a 'mental health' issue it is a personality disorder issue.

Also, narcissism does run to the sociopath spectrum and those highly dangerous men (Bundy etc) were psychopaths. The fact that they couldn't relate or care is true, but kind of incidental! On a scale of 1 - 10 why discuss 10?

Narcissism is environmental usually parenting. A cold, unattached mother who is not emotionally available and who punishes with the 'silent treatment' and withdrawal without explaining right and wrong severely harms their children regarding attachment and the development of an internal dialogue. (picture in dictionary: my MIL . Ditto physical abandonment (leaving children to cry for extended periods of time etc). These children learn they cannot trust and having needs is dangerous.

Also, ultimately we are all born selfish and self-absorbed. In past times this was explained as original sin, where our selfish refusal to submit to a higher power brought about immense suffering. [Conditional] parenting kind of starts around 2 when toddlers start to explore and come up against limits (the terrible twos). When parents are indulgent they are not teaching their children important lessons about considering the needs of others and the greater joy that can be found in caring about others. In dysfunctional families children observe the power dynamics between parents and conclude that behaving in such a way means they are not hurt.

Bottom line: they are awful to live with.

I think I am going to have to respectfully disagree with you on some points Abitwobblynow.
Having looked up the dictionary definition of mental health,narc would appear to be a mental health issue?
Assuming springeydaffs is telling the truth,which she seems to be from what little I know,narcissism in her family's case is nature first. Obviously nuture comes into everything once any child is born.
Discussing 10 is interesting and enlightening to those of us who have a lot to learn.
I agree that we are all born selfish to one degree or another.

Abitt Personality Disorder is a Mental Disorder under the Mental Health Act and the diagnosis criteria is found in the same diagnostic manual as any other psychiatric disorders/conditions or illnesses. Although they say no cure you would not get 'forensic units/community settings in Mental Health or nurses qualified in Mental Health looking after them if it was not under Mental Health. They can also be sectioned under the Mental Health Act due to their diagnosis if a risk to self or others....otherwise they would just go to prison ( with a lot more undiagnosed PDs).

Talking of which has anyone got a link to the new diagnostic criteria of Mental Disorders? I wonder what changes there are...I bet there is a few and wonder if a new one has been added?

Springy the fact you are questioning your own sanity is a reason to believe you are not a Narc no matter how much you think/projected by ex etc
Oh and yes they will say you are a psycho and report you for abuse etc when it there own persona/behaviours...Vaknin has a fab website I suggest OP looks at too. Springy did you read his book?

The Mirror Man ...I wonder if a lot of Models are Narcs LOL!

Sub I loved Lovefraud another for OP

OP did your ex display Narc traits? I can't remember?

Can anyone think of a famous Narcissist? It is good to have a famous person to think of and go ah yes!

I should imagine a lot of famous people are narcs, probably a higher proportion than in 'rl' iyswim - as narcissism is all about a perfect public persona.

The mother you describe abit bears no resemblence to me and never has. YOur outline of the kind of parenting a narc child gets is simplistic imo.

thank you for the 'fleas' link garlic. great link - so much of it makes sense.

I can't agree with this though, about unlearning learned 'narc' behaviour: And they're completely un-learnable . All these absolutes are somewhat dispiriting. Of course we can 'unlearn' unhelpful ways of facing the world. KNowledge is power and all that. We may have to forge new neural pathways like that guy in Shawshank who chiselled through the wall, but you can get there - or somewhere that is better, an improvement. I have to believe that. I can't believe I am entirely and forever moulded by my toxic upbringing. It can't be the final authority.

Who plays the Narc in 'stenders then

Sea, I love the fact that almost every inhabitant of The Square has a recognisable mental disorder It keeps me highly entertained ... and, on a sadder note, I recall how their behaviours all used to seem perfectly understandable to me

Both you and I, Springy, are on an intensive self-reprogramming course I think, for both of us, it entails learning as much as possible about the dysfunctions while also learning how functional behaviours work. I've made it sound rather more like engineering than it is in practice! So, no, we can't un-know what we've already known. But we can completely alter our own paths, as we are doing.

www.dsm5.org/proposedrevision/pages/personalitydisorders.aspx

I've never watched one episode of 'stenders in my life, so I can't answer that! not a snob choice - I keep meaning to - just that it was always on during my 'busy' time. I never understand how people with kids watch it tbh.

going off your thread q Babylon (apologies) but I wonder what to make of this:

I have recently met someone who, by the sound of it, had a narc mother (if not father too). Her solution was, and is, to agree with the narc - say yy, I'm so sorry, you are right, I got that wrong, I'm sorry . this is a new one on me - I have, I suppose, been either on the locked horns side (useless) or absented myself, which seemed to be the only possible recourse - I couldn't see there was a middle ground. But if you think these people will never change and truly and genuinely do see the world the way they see it, then perhaps this is a way to navigate around these people?

A few objections:

1. I am not robust enough to do this with, say, my family. I am still too fragile and still find my family's machinations too painful and devastating.
2. It seems patronising. I inherently respect people's dignity and would find this bare-faced lie too much to pull off.
3. Wouldn't it distort reality? (albeit, perhaps, my reality, which is precious to me when my world has been so drastically tilted by the toxic den I grew up in: truth is important to me.)

I think what this woman is getting at is that, to the narc (or whatever) their reality is true ... and when she offends their 'reality' she is saying 'ah yes, I got that wrong and I'm sorry ' . Perhaps that is, in fact, respecting someone's dignity? (We are all for respecting differences - if someone with a PD can't help it, is there a way to negotiate their 'illness' whilst retaining our own integrity?)

I would appreciate others' views on this. I never thought I'd have to go back into the hair-raising narc's den but that may be a reality in years to come re my children. (though, aside from my children, I have often wondered what on earth we 'do' with narcs. Where do we 'put' them? Do they get passed around and passed around ad infinitum..?)

The other thing I've been thinking is that, possibly for the first time in my life (because I have seen the narc thing in black and white, really), I realise that I may have got a better deal than my family. I didn't think I could ever say that being the scapegoat could possibly have been the better deal - it's so painful! BUT my family aren't in pain, they are in blissful ignorance. yy they seem to be crawling with addictions and obsessions etc... but so am/was I, only I don't have the narc anaesthetic and have felt every bump in the road, every nuance of it. They haven't, they're blissfully unaware - willfully so, possibly? There is no question that the quality of their lives is better than mine on numerous levels. Is it a consolation that I am not mad (or as mad) like them? Sounds too much like theory to me. I wouldn't mind half their peace tbf.

Are you thinking of Michael in Eastenders? Is he playing the role of a narc?
But he has some empathy. And appears to be "learning".

springydaffs,I dont think you are a narc. I think you dont either? You could put notes in discreet places around your house,saying,"I am not a narc". In this way,over time,you should be able to teach your brain the truth.

ok,I am going to write something,a bit coded so as not to out myself.
One relation I know,who never lies,had to lie once to a relative of hers.
He was near the end of his life,and going I think the word would be senile.
He asked to be taken to a place,that,in the rest of his life he had never stepped foot in,and never wanted to.
My relation,knowing all this,knew that if he was his normal self,he would never want to do it. So she absolutely hated doing it,but said that the place was closed,when it was in fact open.
So ,I would have to say,a bit like the instance of Father Christmas,it may be appropriate for that particular woman to do that.

I swing about with the narc thing (re me) tbh. A lifetime of being told 'it's not all about you you know!' (bit rich, coming from them) and also an obsession with self . which I work on turning down, tuning out (it's so boring apart from anything) and which is no doubt in no small part due to being so lacerated that one has a tendency to crouch over one's wounds I can't even say I there . Just saying it as it is folks, not necessarily going there. Doing one's best to resist that peptide pull re victim.

I love the idea of notes around the house (sock drawer?) reminding me I am not a narc! . positive affirmations are based on positive statements, apparently, so I'd have to phrase it as a positive. Suggestions?

I am emotionally healthy. hmm, would need a bit more detail there.

Every day in every way etc (I've never tried this but it's a good one).

btw Babylon re the couple in counseling and the woman being told by the therapist that the partner is a narc - doesn't sound right to me. I'd more than likely point people towards narc info and leave it to them to see if it fits.

Yes, I do that, Springy. No point speaking a language the other can't understand.