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Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

just found DH in DD's cot

232 replies

sleeplessbunny · 08/09/2012 01:49

where he had passed out drunk. I am still shaking. My first thought was "where is DD?" as I couldn't see her, he was taking up the whole cot. She was fine, curled up in the tiniest corner and hidden from view under (D)H's leg, but still.

There is no point trying to talk about it with him until the morning (or later) but I need to vent and try and get my own thoughts straight. This might be an epic post.

He has always drunk too much, it has got worse over the years though and now it is "normal" for him to have at least 1 bottle of wine every night. On a night like that it doesn't even cross my mind that he is drinking too much, his behaviour is usually fine, or at least unremarkable.

Since DD (1 yo) was born, he has given up smoking which he found very difficult and I think has contributed to his drinking getting worse. He used a particular book/technique to help him stop smoking and in the last couple of weeks he has bought the equivalent book for stopping drinking (but hasn't read it yet) so I am hopeful that he at least has the intention to stop. He has said on a few occasions that he wants to be able to cut down his drinking, but tbh I try not to engage him in conversation about either smoking or drinking as it always tends to end with an argument because our expectations are so different.

Anyway, obv tonight he drank way more than usual. I'm not entirely sure why, but SIL (his sister) and DN are here to visit, perhaps he just got carried away. But he was the only one drinking.

He must have come to bed about 11 ish (I had gone to bed early) but at around midnight he got up to go to the loo, made loads of noise, turned on all the lights etc etc. I was inwardly groaning and just waiting for him to come back to bed. Must have drifted off again and woke up with a start hearing weird noises on the baby monitor, went to investigate and found him sprawled in her cot.

Is it time for me to make a stand? I am so scared for DD right now, I am just thinking of all the other awful things he could have done without realising/thinking. He could so easily have just squashed her. What if he'd decided to take her out and dropped her? Am I an idiot for not having thought about this sort of thing before?

Right now I honestly don't feel safe with him in the house. I can't entertain the thought of going to sleep as I have to be awake to protect DD incase he does something else I haven't thought of. Am I over reacting?

My gut feeling right now is to tell him (in the morning) that he has to stop drinking or get out. To pour all the alcohol down the sink. But I know he can't stop, and so I'm scared of the outcome. I do love him, and 95% of the time his behaviour is fine.

WWYD?

OP posts:
Opentooffers · 08/09/2012 14:40

Seems a bit premature to be discussing a future of courts and an inevitable split. H may be playing things down as they have others staying, so it is difficult to talk. The OP needs to get him on his own and have a serious lengthy talk with him so she can assess weather he is likely to accept that this is serious and needs sorting. Then if he can't see it as an issue, the ultimatums and future plans come in.
I wonder if the op has a plan on how to deal with tonight's celebrations? She is in a difficult position as will likely be watching her H heavily drink again and feel unable to act at the time. I hope dd is well away for the night

Opentooffers · 08/09/2012 14:44

.... sorry, afternoon celebrations, if her H drinks the afternoon away too, things could really be stuffed :-(

Offred · 08/09/2012 15:08

My posts were not trying to help the op. They were trying to get you to substantiated your claims about the system. You never have. It appears you never went to court. Apparently what you wanted for your friend or you it isn't clear is that the court deny the ex any unsupervised contact forever. This is a. Not reasonable and b. not the same as the child not being protected and the parent with care not being believed which are the claims you made.

I think it is silly to get into custody battles anyway when the op isn't anywhere near that point. However that doesn't mean it is ok to make really damaging claims like that because, it seems, you have misunderstood how the system works and are operating on secondhand info.

mathanxiety · 08/09/2012 15:32

Do not believe a word out of his mouth by way of promises (not that there have been any) or responses to the thread.

What you need to look at is his reaction to you pouring the booze away.
-- He has apparently not taken any of this seriously and has gone into defence of his alcoholism mode.

OP, you need to contact Al Anon for families of alcoholics to see what you are up against, to get the support of others in the same boat (there are many sadly), and to gain the strength you will need.

[you cannot manage this yourself]

sleeplessbunny · 08/09/2012 16:57

wow, this thread has gone a bit wild. Thanks everyone for your input. I don;t have time to go through it all right now but I will just update on where I am:
This morning DH kind of admitted he had a problem and was quite meek and pensive about it, but did say that he thought me pouring away the alcohol was an overreaction. He also pointed out he was 1/3 of the way through the book he has bought about alcoholism, and said he would have ideally finished it last night if his sister hadn't been round.

We haven't had any further discussion as today is DN's birthday which has been planned for a long time and neither of us wanted to ruin it.
The day has been great, DH is sober (as he usually is during the day) and we have all had fun together. This is part of why I am in denial sometimes: when he is sober, everything is hunky dory, he is generally a great husband and dad. So I tend to minimise his drunken behaviour or put it to the back of my mind. Even when drunk, 9 times out of 10 he just passes out in front of the TV, which causes me no bother at all and I'm so used to it I barely notice. It is the odd occasion like last night where it comes to a head and I realise we are skating around a HUGE problem.

I have talked to SIL at length who is very supportive.

My current plan:

Tell DH that the house has to be dry. If he wants to drink, he has to do it elsewhere. I am not too sure how I will enforce this.

Tell him that if he wants our marriage to continue, he has to admit he is an alcoholic and take steps to stop drinking completely. TBF he is already reading this book, so I will let him finish that but then there has to be action (meetings/GP/whatever) to follow it up. I need a timeframe to put on this.

If he can't do either of the above, I will leave with DD (I have the financial means, at least short term). This is where I am confused tbh. Ideally, I would want him to leave but I don't think he will. Can I force him? Would I have to involve ss? I am scared of involving ss for lots of reasons already stated on the thread. I have no experience of ss, but have heard too many stories and rumours and I don't know what the real facts are. I don't want to jump from the frying pan to the fire but I have a horrid feeling that it is only when we leave that he will actually take me seriously.

I want to give him a chance. I love him when he is sober. He is a great dad when he is sober, involved, works p/t to look after DD, properly co-parents.

OP posts:
garlicnutty · 08/09/2012 17:07

Erm, this is to Mr. Sleeplessbunny, if that's OK?

Nine years ago I went to rehab for alcohol abuse. It's a long story. Here's the short version. I wasn't an alcoholic (though I still say I am, if asked) but was a 'problem drinker'. In AA terms, I got out of the lift at high floor: this elevator only goes down.

I did a number of things, drunk, that I just wouldn't have done sober. None of them were awful but they were fucking stupid and, in hindsight, embarrassing. Mostly they were quite funny, too, but in the way that you've got to tell the story against yourself. I've only realised now that I was being very amusing by telling stories which basically said "I'm an out-of-control dickhead, have a laugh at me!" Ouch ...

Anyway, I did my rehab and my AA Steps and didn't mind it. In for a penny and all that. It's a useful experience in a lot of ways; makes you wiser as a person. It was instructive to talk to all these really badly addicted alcoholics, who were so screwed up in the head they didn't even know it - and impressive to see them (not all of them, of course) gradually get to grips with the facts and stay off the "friend that was killing them".

I stayed sober for eight months. During that time I went to three meetings a week, worked my steps ... and carried on doing all the same things I used to do, only without alcohol. Nights in front of the telly were tough at first because I don't like many soft drinks. I eventually found I could make myself a brew, with a combination of tea bags, that had the fruity/tannic flavour I enjoy about wine.

Going out - this included Christmas, New Year and a hen weekend - was a pushover. A night out is exactly the same sober or drunk, the only real difference is that you notice when your mates are saying the same thing over and over again! I wasn't the quiet type of drunk and am just as lively sober - more likely to get home with money in my pocket and both shoes on, that's all.

I decided to try out drinking again after talking about it with some of my AA friends, bless them. These days, I drink like a 'normal' person I guess. Sometimes I go a bit heavy and, now, it makes me sick - which probably is a good thing. Most days I might have a can of beer or a couple of vodkas. About half the time, I don't drink any alcohol. I still always think about it come 6 o'clock, so I make a pot of coffee instead. I'll have a drink later if I've decided it's OK.

I'll always have to keep a wary eye on it. But it's not a big deal. Really, it's nothing like as hard as you think it's going to be. Certainly not like stopping smoking. I still smoke, so you're already miles ahead of me! It's more of a transition than a major shake-up. You do have to knock it off completely for a fair length of time, though (they say one year), to get used to not being pissed.

That last paragraph could look as if I'm undermining the tremendous achievements of seriously addicted alcoholics. I'm not. I spent 8 months of my life with people overcoming this dreadful addiction; I don't at all underestimate it. But you're a bottle-of-wine-a-day man, you're still on a "high floor". I recommend pressing the stop button now. I know I will keep an eye on my drinking for life, because I'm never going back in that lift!

Everybody needs a defining moment to realise what's happening and press stop. Mine was the complicated story. Yours was nearly squashing your baby. Enough's enough - and it's really, honestly, not as big a deal as it looks!

Good luck :)

garlicnutty · 08/09/2012 17:07

Xposted, OP. Hope all goes well.

Napdamnyou · 08/09/2012 17:08

Glad that you are getting family support from SIL.
Glad that you have got to a point of starting to discuss.
I would go back to your original post and your original reactions and restate to him as soon as you are alone, sober together.
He endangered your darling child, you didn't feel safe with him in the house, you were sick and shaking and terribly afraid.

Your child could be dead today. He put her at terrible risk and only luck saved her.

That is the crux of it and whatever excuses he makes or diversionary tactics he makes ( want to finsh book, throwing drink away an overreaction ) is beside the point.

He has to accept that he did a terrible thing and has lost your trust and was a potentially lethal danger to your child. Broken record broken record broken record. It can't happen again, so if he can't keep her safe because he can't stop being drunk near her, you have no choice but to get yourselves away from the danger.

He can't get drunk near the child. End of. If he can't accept that then he remains a danger.

So sorry for you all.

:(

mathanxiety · 08/09/2012 17:17

'This morning DH kind of admitted he had a problem and was quite meek and pensive about it, but did say that he thought me pouring away the alcohol was an overreaction. He also pointed out he was 1/3 of the way through the book he has bought about alcoholism, and said he would have ideally finished it last night if his sister hadn't been round.'

In other words 'Blah blah blah...' The remorse of a man with a hangover is not remorse.

If the book was doing him any good he wouldn't have said he couldn't finish it because his sister came round.

I'm sorry, but you are going to have to leave.

You can bargain all you like with him, appeal to his better nature, keep the house dry -- but until he thinks he has a problem he is going to keep on drinking and the problem is everyone else, what they do, feel , say, think. Right now he doesn't think he has a problem.

AitchTwoOhOneTwo · 08/09/2012 17:20

good luck, OP. i hope he realises that he very well might have spent today in a police cell, in mourning for his child.

hzgreen · 08/09/2012 17:40

...he would have finished his book on alcoholism if he hadn't been busy getting so blind drunk he got into bed with his daughter???

when i was a kid my stepdad used to get so drunk sometimes that he forgot which bed was his and would get in with me or my sister (nothing more sinister than that!!), it was terrifying to wake up in the middle of the night as a very young child and find someone getting into my bed.

your DD is very young now (and still vulnerable to SIDS) but it won't be long before she starts remembering stuff like this and it will have an affect on her.

i think it's good that you are thinking about boundaries but you have to be willing to follow through otherwise it will never end. it seems to me that at the moment he has no motivation to change all the time he thinks you're overreacting. making the house dry is a start but he will just drink elsewhere. you definately need to be the strong one and make a stand and stick to it.

only you can decide whether to leave him but i agree with some of the other people on here - what he did seriously put your daughter at risk, if he can't accept that i'm not sure i could have him around my child.

best of luck to you, i know it doesn't sound like it but you have my sympathy.
xx

AttilaTheMeerkat · 08/09/2012 19:37

sleepy,

re your comment:-

"My current plan:
Tell DH that the house has to be dry. If he wants to drink, he has to do it elsewhere. I am not too sure how I will enforce this".

You cannot control this; this is one of the three C's re alcoholism. You would do well to remember the 3cs.

"Tell him that if he wants our marriage to continue, he has to admit he is an alcoholic and take steps to stop drinking completely. TBF he is already reading this book, so I will let him finish that but then there has to be action (meetings/GP/whatever) to follow it up. I need a timeframe to put on this"

He is well in denial re his alcoholism and is defensive when you try and talk to him. Alcoholics are very good liars and your man is in denial of his alcoholism. You as his wife are too close to the situation to be of any real use and besides which he does not want your help

"If he can't do either of the above, I will leave with DD (I have the financial means, at least short term)".

Leaving with DD is the only sensible thing you can do here.

"This is where I am confused tbh. Ideally, I would want him to leave but I don't think he will. Can I force him? Would I have to involve ss? I am scared of involving ss for lots of reasons already stated on the thread. I have no experience of ss, but have heard too many stories and rumours and I don't know what the real facts are.

" I don't want to jump from the frying pan to the fire but I have a horrid feeling that it is only when we leave that he will actually take me seriously"

Correct. By being there you are still his dependent enabler. You are playing a role in his alcoholism as well. You're just as caught up in his issue as he is albeit in a different way but codependent enabling as you are is damaging you as well as he. What you have tried to date has not worked. Tipping the booze down the sink was a wasted effort and can also be seen as enabling; it does not work.

No obstacle is insurmountable, you can and should seek legal advice to get him out of your home.

"I want to give him a chance. I love him when he is sober. He is a great dad when he is sober, involved, works p/t to look after DD, properly co-parents".

Great dad, oh dear not that old chestnut again. Many women write that as well when they themselves have nothing positive to write about their man. He is not a great dad if he is a drunkard and you married a drunk. How many times also have you told that set of denials to yourself?. He could have caused your DD serious injury by crushing. Stop lying to yourself and see this with cold dead eyes. He is dragging you and by turn your DD down with him. He does not care about you and anyone or anything else, only where the next drink is coming from.

Sorry but your plan is not going to work because he will sabotage it. Apart from that the longer you remain within this, the worse it will become for you.

AttilaTheMeerkat · 08/09/2012 19:43

SleeplessBunny

You need to read this as well, uncomfortable as it will be for you. Putting his drink down the sink only served your own need re relieving an intolerable situation at the time and that is why it is enabling behaviour. Enabling does not work.

This is you now:-
The Merry-Go-Round of DENIAL

Alcoholism is a tragic three act play in which there is at least two characters, the drinker and his family; friends; co-workers and even healthcare workers may have a part in keeping the Merry-Go-Round turning.

ACT ONE

The play opens with the alcoholic stating that no one can tell him/her what to do. This makes it very difficult for the family to talk about drinking and its results. Even when the drinking is obviously causing serious problems, he/she simply will not discuss it. Talking is like a one-way street.

The key word in alcoholism is Denial, for again and again people do what they say they will not or deny what they have done.

As the alcoholic drinks more and more, the helpers deny the problem and increase the alcoholic?s dependency.

In act one, the alcoholic kills all his/her pain and woes by getting drunk.

ACT TWO

In act two, the alcoholic does nothing but wait for and expect others to do for them. Distinct characters begin to evolve from his/her helpers. A person can play more than one character and usually does.

The Enabler
The Enabler is a helpful type, trying to rescue his friend from their predicament. The Enabler wants to save the alcoholic from the immediate crisis and relieve them of the unbearable tension created by the situation.
In reality, this person is meeting a need of their own, rather than that of the alcoholic, although the Enabler does not realize this themselves.

The Enabler denies the alcoholic the process of learning by correcting and taking responsibility for his/her own mistakes.

The Enabler may eventually insist they will never again rescue the alcoholic. They always have and the alcoholic believes they always will.

The Victim

This may be the boss, the employer, the foreman or supervisor. The Victim is the person who is responsible for getting the work done, if the alcoholic is absent due to drinking or is half on and half off the job due to a hangover.

The alcoholic becomes completely dependent on this repeated protection and cover-up by the Victim; otherwise he/his could not continue drinking in this fashion. If the Victim stops helping, the alcoholic will be compelled to give up drinking or give up the job.

It is the Victim who enables the alcoholic to continue his irresponsible drinking without losing his/her job.

The Provoker

This is usually the wife or mother and is a key person in the play.

She is a veteran at this role and has played it much longer than others. She is the Provoker. She is hurt and upset by repeated drinking episodes; but she holds the family together despite all the trouble caused by drinking.
In turn, she feeds back in the relationship her bitterness, resentment, fear and hurt, and so becomes the source of provocation.

She controls, she tries to force the changes she wants; she sacrifices, adjusts, never gives up, never gives in, but never forgets.

The attitude of the alcoholic is that his/her failure should be acceptable, but she must never fail the alcoholic! He/she acts with complete independence and insists he/she will do as they please.
This character might also be called the Adjuster. She is constantly adjusting to the crises and trouble caused by drinking.

Act two is now played out in full. Everything is done for the alcoholic and not by them. The results, effects and problems caused by drinking, have been removed by others. The painful results of the drinking were suffered by persons other than the drinker. This permits him/her to continue drinking as a way to solve his/her problems.

ACT THREE

Act three begins much like act one. The need to deny dependence is now greater for the alcoholic and must be expressed almost at once, and even more emphatically. The alcoholic denies he/she has a drinking problem, denies he/she is an alcoholic, denies that alcohol is causing him/her trouble. The alcoholic refuses to acknowledge that anyone helped them ? more denial. He/she denies that they may lose their job and insists that he/she is the best or most skilled person at his/her job. Above all, the alcoholic denies he/she has caused his/her family any trouble. In fact, the alcoholic blames the family, especially the spouse/parent, for all the fuss, nagging and problems.

Some alcoholics achieve the same denial by a stony silence, refusing to discuss anything related to their drinking. The memory is too painful.

The real problem is that the alcoholic is well aware of the truth which he/she so strongly denies. He/she is aware of the drunkenness and the failure. His/her guilt and remorse have become unbearable and the alcoholic cannot tolerate criticism or advice from others.

Above all, the memory of his/her utter helplessness and failure is more than embarrassing; it is far too painful for a person who thinks and acts as if he/she were a little god in their own world.

The wheel goes round and round.

The curtain never closes after act three, but instead the acts run over and over again. As years go by the actors get older, but there is little change in the words or the action of the play.

It is not true that an alcoholic cannot be helped until he wants help. It is true that there is almost no chance that the alcoholic will stop drinking as along as other people remove all the painful consequences for him/her. The other actors find it difficult to change. It is much easier and far less painful for them to say that the alcoholic cannot be helped, than to go through the agony of learning to play a new role.

Self-creating crisis

If drinking continues long enough, the alcoholic creates a crisis, gets into trouble, and ends up in a mess. This can happen in many ways, but the pattern is always the same: he/she is a dependent who behaves as if he/she were independent, and drinking makes it easy to convince himself/herself this is true. Yet the results of his drinking make him ever more dependent upon others.

When his/her self-created crisis strikes, he waits for something to happen, ignores it, walks away from it, or cries for someone to get him/her out of it. Alcohol, which at first gave him/her a sense of success and independence, has now stripped him/her of their mask and reveals a helpless, dependent child.

The crisis is a way of reassuring the alcoholic that they have control over the other players in the play.

The Little God

No one has a right to play God and demand that the alcoholic stop drinking. The reverse is also true. The alcoholic can only continue to act like a little god, telling everyone what to do, while doing as he/she pleases, if a supporting cast continues to play their roles. Every player has every right and responsibility to refuse to act as if the alcoholic in their lives were God whose every wish and commandment be obeyed.

Ending the play

There is no easy way to stop the merry-go-round, for it can be more painful to stop it than to keep it going. It is impossible to spell out definite rules which apply to all members of the play. Each case is different, but the framework of the play remains the same.

The 3cs re alcoholism
You did not cause this
You cannot control this
You cannot cure this

sincitylover · 08/09/2012 19:47

So Attila are you saying that if a partner stays with the alcoholic or monitors their drinking or attends addiction counselling with them they are enabling even if the alcoholic has owned up to problem or wants this.

sincitylover · 08/09/2012 19:48

I'm asking because someone very close to me is in this situation

AnyFucker · 08/09/2012 19:51

Op, you would be well served in listening very carefully to attila

fiventhree · 08/09/2012 20:13

Wow Attila, that is so true

AttilaTheMeerkat · 08/09/2012 20:37

sincitylover

In a word, yes.

What you describe in that situation is that person enabling.
The Enabler denies the alcoholic the process of learning by correcting and taking responsibility for his/her own mistakes.

The Enabler may eventually insist they will never again rescue the alcoholic. They always have and the alcoholic believes they always will.

Re monitoring their drinking, the person has to remember and importantly accept one of the 3cs re alcoholism - you (as the non alcoholic) cannot control it.

AttilaTheMeerkat · 08/09/2012 20:40

sincitylover

In a word, yes.

What you describe in that situation is that person enabling.
The Enabler denies the alcoholic the process of learning by correcting and taking responsibility for his/her own mistakes.

The Enabler may eventually insist they will never again rescue the alcoholic. They always have and the alcoholic believes they always will.

Re monitoring their drinking, the person has to remember and importantly accept one of the 3cs re alcoholism - you (as the non alcoholic) cannot control it.

garlicnutty · 08/09/2012 20:46

I will answer your question, sincity. No-one can control another person's addiction. It's surprising how people still don't recognise what addictions do, despite plenty of honest media representation.

It can be helpful to look at it as a love affair. This is reasonable enough, since addictions engage the same brain responses as love. We're thinking about the kind of toxic, all-consuming affair that you know is going to end in disaster, but you've got to sit helplessly by as the lover finds out for himself.

If your friend's partner were having an affair, she would take it for granted that he's got to cut all contact - by himself - to have any chance of staying with her. She wouldn't tell him to only see OW a bit, monitor his access to her and take responsibility for his fidelity, would she? (I hope not! Some people are that daft.) Same thing with the alcohol. She can't control it. She should immediately stop trying, and get support for herself.

Similarly with counselling. If you're talking about family therapy as part of the addict's treatment - well and good; this is the equivalent of couples counselling after an affair. If she has involved herself in his treatment, she is again trying to control his processes and it won't work.

garlicnutty · 08/09/2012 20:46

oh, xpost, attila, sorry

Mellower · 08/09/2012 20:48

It's strange how places differ, if police receive a domestic violence call here it is immediately reported to SS if you have DC.

Hope he stays sober OP that is very very scary, people talk of cats lying on babies but imagine a human and had you not checked, oh it does not bear thinking about! Shock

AttilaTheMeerkat · 08/09/2012 21:09

No problem garlicnutty.

QuintessentialShadows · 08/09/2012 21:14

Your husband has endangered your baby's life.

You are enabling him by brushing things under the carpet and letting him continue.

If this was me I would take the hard line, and ask him to leave and sort him self out if the marriage and family life should have a chance of surviving. If he refused to leave, and therefore forced me to leave, it would be the end. Sad

Good luck.

solidgoldbrass · 08/09/2012 21:15

Thing is OP: what he wants no longer matters. Put him at the bottom of your list of priorities and think about what you and DD want and need, take steps to implement those things. A good solicitor can advise you on getting him forcibly removed from the house - or if you decide to leave with DD, a court can order the house to be sold and your share of the money tied up in it given to you.

As to all this stuff about unsupervised access in the future - you can make him jump through hoops to keep DC safe. If he turns up drunk, you can shut the door in his face. If he is drunk when he returns the DC you can suspend contact and make him take you back to court. Etc. You can wear him out to the extent that he either fucks off to drink himself to death or actually stops drinking.

Swipe left for the next trending thread