How do you know for sure that you should leave?

[Apty]

Relationships are full of good and bad. What do you do when you are confused about the balance and how bad it really is?

My instincts tell me to leave sometimes, and then at other times that seems like the worst thing to do.

Do you reach a point when you know?

Oh and cannot you said I should throw myself into lectures. I wish. I have no lectures these days. I'm a year off qualifying and doing psych at the moment. Clerking patients with really good-going schizophrenia puts things into perspective I can tell you. The hospital I've been based at is literally like Bedlam. Nice to have a non-stressful work environment given the shit at home. Not.

Night all. Going to sleep off a bottle of Shiraz.

Tired - hope you enjoyed your Shiraz ;-) - I had some Pinot Noir and it was lovely. Not so lovely was the notion that I had decided not to have any but necked a bottle anyway :-( tomorrow is another day

So. H got back from his business trip. It was all so strange and weird
The kids were delighted to see him obvs - they had missed him a lot. He brought me back some clarins from duty free which is normal practice. What is different is that there was no hug or kiss or conversation - he went off to bed reasonably early
What is different is that he could see that over 10 days I had built up connectivity with my kids. It's sounds strange to say but he is a helicopter parent and a control freak and makes it hard for me to parent my kids. He monopolises the space and time and talks incessantly making his presence felt constantly. I hate this so much.
Its up to me now to maintain the connection - my dd is a daddy's girl at best of times but she's a good kid and she's smart - I think she knows I'm trying. I'm not going to retreat this to and lose my advantage. No more hiding in the en suite.

On phone so can't scroll back to see who it was asked me about the year of living with dh - yes we are both deep deep in personal debt barely paying the bills, not living lavishly by any means but can't afford two households - it's out of the question. We still have a huge childcare bill 900? plus debt servicing
Next year childcare will be halved & debts paid down a bit.
My big fear is this - dd turns 12 next year - can she decide who to live with herself??

SmallSherry at 12 she is old enough to decide.

I know what you mean re the parenting thing. My dh is also very, very hands-on, proactive and I feel he makes it hard for me to parent too. He is always in there first. I've actually really lost confidence in myself as a parent as a consequence and because my work has escalated as his has downshifted it is easy for me to delegate so much to him - which suits him - and makes me feel like shit.

I've also worried dds would opt to live with dad given the choice. He is more confident and stable. I feel almost afraid of my dd1 sometimes, and fearful of parenting them both. I don't think dh would do this to me - he knows I would be destroyed - but it has worried me that this might happen because they feel sorry for him.

Tired we have so much in common. My h is like that too & whilst he works as much as I do, he can work from home and doesn't have to commute so he gets more time with them. Also he sits on his arse on his iPad on the couch with them when he's around the house, rather than cleaning which is what I seem to do.... Stoopid me :(

Hello, not had time to read the entire thread but I used to be in an abusive relationship (emotional, gaslighting and damaging my possessions, but no actual physical violence towards me although threatened).

I have also been in a relationship with a layabout pothead, world of warcraft player with no intention of ever working, who saw the dole and HB as his 'entitlement', ffs.

In both instances I hoped the guy would change, and wanted them to. Thought they would. The time to leave* both times was when I knew that even if they changed and became the best partners you could ask for I could never love them again or forgive them for what they had put me through.

Once I entered that mindset it was easy.

*Just for the record I had my own house and I didn't actually leave but made them move out, which I actually think was harder than just leaving, no kids each time.

HTH.

Sorry, just realised that probably doesn't answer the OP. I have little experience with none twisted relationships.

Sounds like you've really picked 'em, baker :)

Just catching up with the thread, had missed the last few pages....

Tired I have an amazing best friend who has been totally supportive and is always just a phone call away, any time. Have leaned on her many times and have been there for her too, so feel very secure in the knowledge that she is there for me :). Another couple of close friends are on permanent standby too. It's a shame my parents won't be there for me but I can't stand the simmering anger I feel from them all the time.

I do feel strong at the moment (almost to the point where I'm questioning myself, as in am I missing something really massive?) but I do recognise that I will wobble and possibly even cave some time soon. Off to see my counsellor today to unpick whatever is floating round my head at the moment.

My DH also does the hands on parenting etc, but like Sherry I've had the advantage of having the DCs to myself for the last 10 days and feel I've connected with DS especially well. Maybe when DH comes home and starts moving his stuff out, is when it will all start to unravel.

I'm just wittering on today, nothing of value to add, sorry! But I will say that I only read half of the first 50 shades, and got bored ;).

Baker, sounds like you've had a rough time of it, and you're right, when you realise you can't love them again no matter what they change it is probably time to call it a day.

Tired sorry to hear your au-pair didn't work out. The short-term agony you are feeling must be horrendous, but it is better than a lifetime of sadness and bitterness, no matter how under the radar it is day-to-day. You are a very strong woman I think, although I have never met you .

A very self-indulgent post today from me, apologies in advance. I feel like I have been going through my own personal hell the last few days, and keeping it all in is nearly killing me. I am sat here in work, the first time I have felt safe to sit down and post for days, tears rolling down my face.

I know people say that there is always an excuse not to leave, but really, the last few days have thrown them all up. DP was so horrendous to me on Friday night something snapped, and I have had to keep it all to myself. I feel like I am dying inside, this is the only place to get it down.

We went out for birthday drinks with some friends on Friday night (DPs birthday was on Monday). DP was on edge all night, being very needy. We had an okay night, then got home, and the moment the babysitter left at 12, dd started crying (she's teething). DP was really pissed, so I took over looking after her, and popped her in her cot to have a wee, where she carried on screaming. I came out of the bathroom (my phone was left on the shelf in there), and DP was at the door saying that our daughter was more important than my phone wtf did I think I was doing leaving a baby to cry whilst I was checking my phone?

I just said calmly that I was not using my phone, went into dd's room and ignored him. I then carried her into my bed, and dp was shouting down from the attic room, doing impressions of me speaking, being really nasty, then he came down and started punching my pillow whilst I was sat on the bed with dd in my arms, saying that even my children noticed I was on my phone all the time, that he was fed up of my bullshit and was moving out in the morning. This went on for ages before I told him to get the hell to bed and get some sleep.

I led awake for 2 hours, just feeling my heart getting harder and harder, IYKWIM. It was one of DP's oldest friend's wedding the next day, and I had full intentions of not going, staying with the children and going to my Mum's, but in the morning, after his profuse apologies, I caved in and didn't tell him of my plans to take him up on his word and pack his bags for him myself. As well as his friend's wedding it was his birthday Monday, his first counselling session last night, and his lovely Granny died two weeks ago and it is her funeral this afternoon. I have been going through the motions this last few days, trying to protect him from how angry and hurt I am, even going ahead with my plans for a lovely day and evening the four of us on his birthday on Monday, spending money on country park admissions and a meal out I do not have, and I have felt utterly shit the whole time.

Everything I do is to protect him, the children, my Mother, my MIL, etc. etc., and I can't continue. I have tried so hard. I was planning on waiting til after Christmas, but at the moment I don't even feel like going home from work this afternoon. I can continue no more. .

We went to MIL's on Monday and she is so wonderful, and so concerned about her son, I feel so responsible to her to look after him. She is giving me £450 towards November's childcare bill so we can have a nice Christmas, and all I can think of when saying thanks to her is what a horrible, horrible, person I am.

He is meant to be changing and most of the time is really helpful, thoughtful, etc., but then he goes and pulls a stunt like Friday night's, and thinks all he has to do is apologise. I am at the end of the road. Please don't tell me to keep on trying, I just can't do it anymore, I am about to break.

Sorry about the rant, I have been on annual leave since Friday and work is the only place I can get away at the moment, so that all just poured out as soon as I got here this morning whilst I was alone in the office. I can't even cry at home because either I am with the children or with DP. I can't even cry in bed at night because DP will hear me. I am too bloody tired to even go to a friend's house and vent in the evenings, as DC wake up at 5.30 every morning. I haven't even got the energy to push the vacuum cleaner around once they are in bed at the moment, let alone deal with mine and DP's situation.

I go from feeling terrible one hour to feeling like I have blown everything out of all proportion the next, and I should not split my family up but work at it. I feel able to go home later now at least.

Cannot, I think you have your answer to the title of this thread at last.

You are right, you cannot go on any longer, you have reached the end of the line, and most importantly it is okay for you to have reached this point and to feel the way you do. You are carrying such a burden with this right now, as well as all the other things you're having to deal with at the moment. Please be kind to yourself now, do what you have to do to look after your DCs and try to carve out some time for yourself. You need head space to reflect and plan.

I'll come back later, have to go out now, but just wanted to say that I hear you, and to send you a hug. Take care x

Thanks so, so much Thistle for your kind message.

And the gaslighting, the gaslighting, I forgot about the bloody gaslighting. He tried to tell me that he had not mocked me, had not said the things he said, 5 minutes after saying them.

How are you feeling now, Cannot? I hope you did feel able to go home in the end. Have a good cry if you need to, you don't need to protect your DH from that (unless you are trying to avoid unwelcome attention from him). And keep posting if it helps :) x

I went for my counselling session today, it took her 50mins to break me! (Kidding, I know that's not the point....) As I suspected, it's my mother who is causing me the most anguish, and I've been feeling bad about that because its detracting from me focussing on my DCs during this split. She has made me see that, unfair as that is, I am going to have to deal with it or she will always be able to treat me badly (and my DD). I feel quite pissed off about that! However, that's where I'm at.

Hope everyone else faring ok x

Cannot what a horrible situation.

I think in some ways your dp being such a cunt so unreasonable is good. That's not hard and unsympathetic, it's agony for you, but hopefully it will harden your heart and give you the strength to get out.

Make plans, quietly. This is a horribly dysfunctional relationship and you do have to get out. Punching a pillow? It's you he's punching in his mind. And he's doing this in front of your baby?

I know how hard it is. I agonised for years. But remember, the longer you stay, the harder it gets. Honestly. The opprobrium from society is worse the younger the kids are. But who gives a fuck? The older the kids are the more it affects them, the more potential for damage, the more complicated it is.

I wish I'd got out years ago.

I'm sat in my new house with my dd, her sister upstairs shrieking and laughing with friends staying over. We all went out trick or treating earlier, and got soaked. It's lovely - and a bit alien, I've lost confidence so much in parenting thanks to dh and his controlling of the dc and his subtle exclusion of me. He can't bear that I have the time and space to reconnect with them away from his influence.

But my confidence is growing all the time, and I am feeling more comfortable taking control, being authoritative, being a proper mum, not disengaged and sad.

I've also talked to friends about his behaviour and the consensus is that he is letting his need and wish to punish me impact on their wellbeing through this process. He needs to stop treating what is happening as if it is the end of the world for them, or he risks making it a self fulfilling prophecy. He needs to stop acting like it's a sad thing when they come to my house and help them feel good about their new home.

He's not man enough to do this, which makes me realise what a jealous, small person he is. I feel much stronger already and more certain I did the right thing. Dh is cutting off his nose to spite his face all the time. Our buyers want to gazunder us, the estate agent has warned us, and I fear dh will roll over and take it, because if we get shafted it will be yet more evidence that I've ruined our lives. It's crazy. He needs to get over himself, stop fighting it all and look to the future.

Crying in front of the kids and telling them he doesn't want any of this is indulging his own sense of grievance to their detriment. It's not acceptable to say he 'can't help it'.

I wrote him an incredibly long, heartfelt email about my feelings about our marriage ending. It was generous and in some ways apologetic, very regretful, but didn't absolve him of responsibility for ending our marriage. I took him to task, gently, for the way he is wallowing in misery and making things as 'bad' as possible. That this isn't helping anyone, that it is bad for the kids and all of us. I even made clear it didn't have to be the end, but spelled out my terms for any future reconciliation - the need for co-operation, rebuilding of friendship. All totally reasonable, but my terms nonetheless and therefore unacceptable, invalid.

He hasn't acknowledged it at all. His response really puts the lie to his moral high ground as the one who wanted to keep the marriage together - shows it was for completely for the wrong reasons, and that I was the strong, right one, ending the marriage. It tells me that he doesn't love me any more, and only wanted to keep me to keep the children. He can't bear that I am away from him, able to get perspective, entitled to my own feelings away from his emotional bullying.

I am still thinking almost all the time about what he is thinking, feeling scared of the anger and negativity he feels towards me. I'm sure this will take a long time to stop. I think one of the reasons I postponed this for so long is that I knew that the only thing worse than having him as a husband was having him as an ex-husband. I knew he was too small to be magnanimous and get past his own feelings. He's a very angry man, he always has been. Shitty about nearly all his exes, none of whom 'took his children away'. He was angry when he had nothing really to be angry about, so now he thinks he does, it's a million times worse.

He's been really shitty about something this weekend, and was pissed off that I wanted the girls for two nights in a row this week when he is taking them away from Friday to Sunday. What a joke, they have stayed with me twice and come for tea twice in the last 11 days.

It's a bit lonely in the house on my own, but I think when I've got it a bit more sorted I will feel more comfortable and able to pursue the things I need to do myself without feeling eaten up that they aren't with me.

I know there are still plenty of ups and downs ahead, but I feel stronger than I have. I'm sure dh knew this would happen, which was why he tried so hard to avert it for as long as possible.

My main worries now are about money.

You sound so much stronger Tired, writing that email must have been quite cathartic. Hope your DDs got some sleep eventually (!), must have been great to hear/see them so happy in your new home. Onwards! X

Sounds like you have turned a corner tired, how lovely for you that the kids are settling into your place and treating it as a home, and what a twunt your husband is being for not acknowledging your email. At least it was probably cathartic to get it all down, and no-one, including him, can say that you are not handling the breakup well and giving him chances to change.

Thistle I hope your counselling helps, it has really helped me. Mine finished a couple of weeks ago and I wish I could afford to continue going as I really need it right now.

I feel pretty similar today; I of course went home yesterday, I couldn't have not, spent a nice time doing Halloween things with DC. DP came home from the funeral yesterday and went straight out to a friend's. It seemed like he was avoiding me.

I need to talk to him so much, I am going to break into little pieces if I don't, or die of a heart attack , but I am dreading it, I am so scared of what is going to happen. Not for my safety, by the way, but just scared of the fallout. I need to stop being a coward.

It's not my fault, is it? It feels like my fault. Me telling him a couple of months ago I didn't know if I loved him any more has caused this, and caused the shitty way he acted on Friday night. I wonder how I would be faring if the shoe was on the other foot, whether I may be angry, and confused, and lash out emotionally.

Hi again. Another over indulgent post from me, but I need to vent somewhere. Sorry I just pop in and out, but with uni, a toddler, H, job and everything else I don't get a lot of time to check in.

Yesterday was awful. I was at uni all afternoon, so H stayed at home with our DD. The plan was for my family to come over late afternoon to do some cooking for a halloween buffet, and H parents would come over early evening. Well before I went I had H saying all day that it was shit I had to go in, etc etc. Well when I got home my family were there, and H was just sitting at the table, not helping out, but just looking miserable. He only cheered up when he parents arrived. I've been with this man for almost 9 years now, it's riduculas that he keeps so distant from my family.

He threatened divorce again yesterday as I wasn't wearing my rings (bear in mind he's never actually bought me a proper engagement ring because of money, so I've had a variety of rings, current one is CZ). Started saying that I'm trying to act like a single woman. Then today he's saying how much he misses me, how he loves me, was thinking of the past etc.

I just can't bring myself to reply. I don;t want to be with someone he won't get involved with my family. I dread coming home at the moment. Not because of fighting, but because it's the same crap day in day out.

I've got my first session of counselling on wednesday, and am viewing a flat on monday. At the moment every time I start talking myself out of leaving, I find myself thinking 'no why should I stay. We've grown apart. How ever much he tries, I can;t get over x, y and z'. I found myself almost crying at uni over all this the other day. I cried in the car on my way home instead. I just waver between feeling so strong and sure to thinking maybe I should give it another go, what if it's wrong etc. I've never been on my own, he's my first ever relation ship (and me his), it's so scary and unknown to leave and be on my own. Staying with him is a 'safe and secure' choice, but it's not making me happy, or him, so maybe one of us just needs to be strong enough to end it. Sorry for my rant.

Not all that safe and secure given how he makes you feel, Pulled. Sounds like it is anything but, emotionally.

No need to excuse not coming on here for a bit, it's good to have you back on here when you have time.

The on-off-on-off feelings you describe pulled are exactly how I feel, it is very confusing, isn't it? I am veering from one extreme to the other hourly at the moment, it is making me feel physically sick.

It must be extra difficult for you as he is your first serious relationship. I have had a few long term relationships, but, however they ended, and a couple of them were messy, nothing comes close to the pain I am feeling now, as children are involved. Don't be scared of being on your own pulled if it ends up like that. It is liberating to discover you have the strength to be on your own, particularly after a difficult relationship. I came out of a very difficult relationship 10 years ago, and I loved the 5 years of being single after that, before I met DP. I have been happy with DP, but, I think that the loneliness of being in a relationship with someone you don't want to be with any more is far worse than the loneliness of being single.

Agree cannot it is lonelier in an unhappy relationship. What I hated most in my dysfunctional marriage was the constant anxiety - about what dh was thinking, what he thought about me, etc.

This hasn't gone away, but I'm hoping it will in time. I feel more relaxed not being in the same house, but he is still a presence in my mind. It makes me realise how much he dominated me and intimidated and manipulated me.

When I first went on MN talking about my unhappiness I described his behaviour and was really shocked when people told me it was emotional abuse. I thought it was exaggeration, that those who said so on here were strident man-haters sorry

Now I realise that they were right, and I was completely brainwashed. I was like someone living in some kind of Orwellian nightmare.

I'm not missing him at all in any good ways. I'm still scared of him. Just because his abuse was so subtle didn't make it less. I think in some ways it is harder because you don't know if it's alright really and it's just you (and I'm sure that is the idea and critical to how it works).

I don't know if any of that rings a bell with you, and I apologise for going into a personal rant again.

But I would urge you to get some space if you can to get a sense of perspective. Living in a dysfunctional, toxic relationship is not just lonely, it's incredibly tiring and draining. I hope that one day I am able to feel like a normal person, who isn't preoccupied with this internal debate and anxiety, but just feels secure and relaxed and able to look outside and embrace life rather than be stuck in the torpor of a marriage that hasn't worked, and all the guilt, fear etc that this provides.

Not there yet, not by a long way.

Hi, namechanger here, in need of a vent at the very least. I guess it may come out a little jumbled.

I feel like the worst person in the world. DH and I married a little over a year ago, and have two DC. We've been together for about 5 1/2 years altogether. (I was a late 19 when we met, so young)

DH has depression and I have epilepsy and non-epileptic seizures (may be outing myself a tad with that since I've talked about it elsewhere, but oh well). He is my carer, and we're home together all the time. I've been doing okay, I thought, despite my mother telling me I needed to set ultimatums if he didn't sort himsef out (she's controlling, so I put it down to that). But here we are, and over the last few years I find myself sinking every now and then to bad patches where I question where this is going. Nothing changes. He's not a bad man, not at all, and he doesn't hit or threaten me, but I just end up feeling so belittled at times, and I can't even put my finger on why.

On a good day, he's the gentlest man around, considerate, loving, good with the kids (oh, I know how that sounds after having been on mumsnet a while)... On a bad day he is grumpy, irritable, rude and condescending. He snaps at the kids and calls DS an idiot, and in the past he has walked out of the house following arguments, leaving his phone behind. He used to drink and conceal how much he was drinking, but I think that's calmed down now. He still drinks, but openly and less of it.

Throughout this, he either won't get help at all, or ducks out of the system without ever really trying. I know that stems from issues he has going back donkey's years, but it doesn't help now. And at the same time he brushes off talk of going to the doctor, he yells at me if I forget any appointments or tablets, despite the fact that I make an effort to do all I can for my health, and have been told that there's just no guarantee they can ever stop all of my seizures, especially as they are likely stress-based.

Over the last couple of years the thought of leaving him ahas come up and died away again a few times. Mostly it's knowing there are some things I cannot do myself, such as bathe the children. That's big, important stuff I would need help with (it's unsafe for me to bathe them alone incase I have a seizure). I don't go out of the house much either, because of these seizures and the fact that he worries to an extreme amount about me. I've also just..I feel safe at home, in my own little world, just going to drop my son off at school. I started talking to people via skype and the internet this last six months or so, which is so much easier (I've never been all that good at making friends).

Only now, here I am in the middle of a "good" patch after arguments a week or two ago where DH threw his wedding ring across the room, wondering if this will ever end. And the reason I feel shitty is that this time, I have a friend I talk to online and I realise I have one hell of a lot more in common with him - a guy I've never met - than I do with my own husband. I look back and think about our wedding, and how it nearly didn't happen because DH was so stressed out about me having a seizure and it all going wrong and he couldn't cope etc.

And I'm becoming the bad guy. There's "someone else" even if that someone else is only someone else in the fantasy department of my mind. I feel crappy, and I feel like a grub for being in two minds about the future of my marriage. DH won't talk to counsellors. I haven't brought up the subject of something like Relate but I know he would panic. But every time he yells at me for something, every time he makes a snide remark about something I'm interested in, I just think about how this friend takes my side when I cave in and go "urgh, this happened today".

I know I'm skirting beyond dangerously close to EA territory and it's just muddying this whole situation now. I felt crappy and unhappy before but I was just kinda trapped by needing DH. Now I feel like I'm the villain as well. And I probably am :(

Thank you for the support everyone, it really helps. I know how you feel cannot the constant flipping between the 2 extremes is so draining and confusing. I'm starting to think that a split is inevitable anyway. H is starting to pull away, possibly doing some thinking himself. I've developed a massive crush on someone, and it reminds me of how I used to feel before seeing H back at the start, I chat with them, get on well, get butterfly's before I see them, and it makes me realise how dead my relationship with H is. We spent our lunch-break together on tuesday, and we had barley anything to talk about, same when we're at home. I really help the counselling helps me decide what choice to make and how to get there. Started crying again earlier as I thought about H getting stroppy over me not wearing my rings. Basically how can he get like that when he hasn't ever gotten me a proper engagement ring due to money, basically I feel like to him I'm not even worth that

Pulled it sounds like your DH needs to stop throwing the threat of divorce in your face every time you row, and you need to sit down together and talk about whether he is serious about it. Maybe you both need some space away from eachother to think.

Kixicle, it sounds like your situation is very complicated, and your DP knows full well you rely on him for so much, but that does not give him the excuse to treat you like he is. He also needs to seriously consider counselling if he wants to give your relationship a chance, but I worry that what he is doing sounds like EA, so relationship counselling would not work. Have you thought about going for counselling alone?

You sound very trapped, and you are so young to feel like that, you have so much life ahead of you. I think you need to put your feelings aside for this guy you have met online for the moment, it is good that you recognise he is an escapist fantasy from your RL problems, keep that in mind.

Oh, and incidentally, you are not a villain, or the worst person in the world. You sound very kind and self-aware.

Thank you for your kind words cannot, it means a lot to me. I still feel a bit grub-like, but I think that's from feeling as though here I am, painting my woe-is-me and my husband isn't able to present his.

I don't feel as though he is EA, just that he is very depressed and inconsiderate at times. I put a lot of his behaviour down to his depression some days though, and although I knew he was depressed when we married, he also promised to get help, which hasn't happened. I think it's more complicated in my head because he's not someone that does absolutely nothing around the house. He does 99% of the food preparation, and is capable of looking after the kids if I need to go out, though if they misbehave he is a lot quicker to shout at them than I am.

I feel worse because he is also so reliant on me emotionally. I'm the only person he talks to, and even after all our arguments he says he can't imagine a time we aren't together, that he's terrified I'll leave him. I find myself worrying that if I leave him he'll do something stupid.

At the same time, feeling like I only live with him out of guilt is not healthy. I sat and made a list of things I loved about him, and in his depressed state it's not very long. Part of me feels like I want the man I married back, but the other part is starting to wonder if that man is even there any more. And then a good day comes along, and I feel awful for even thinking that, not to mention the added complication of not knowing that the hell I would do if our marriage really broke down. Part of me feels as though I'm holding things together just until the DC get older, that I'm biding my time to see what will happen, if things will get better, or at least the point at which the DC will be old enough for me to be safe with them. That kind of mercenary thinking leaves a bad taste in my mouth though.