How do you know for sure that you should leave?

[Apty]

Relationships are full of good and bad. What do you do when you are confused about the balance and how bad it really is?

My instincts tell me to leave sometimes, and then at other times that seems like the worst thing to do.

Do you reach a point when you know?

Well my parents upped their ante today.... We were having a slow and really very pleasant start to the day here, planning a day out before H leaves for work tomorrow morning. Having asked my parents to stay away until we felt the DCs were ready to see them (knowing that M would be very emotional and looking for support herself), they pitched up and peace was shattered. Both M and D wasted no time telling me that M hadn't slept a wink, before M told me that all we need to do is go on holiday and sort ourselves out. They didn't ask how I was, or anyone else for that matter. They just reminded me how unbelievable they thought it all was.

Had to remain very adult and remind them that they couldn't bring their own angst and certainly not their criticisms round here at this time, if they couldn't support me then could they at least give the DCs the support they need. Then I had to ask H to go and tell them the same. Which, to his credit, he did. Maybe they will listen to him. My dad left without making eye contact. At least my mum managed a hug.

I feel quite surprised - and then surprised at why I'm so surprised! They have shown absolutely no concern for me at all today, and I shouldn't feel let down, because it was ever thus..... But I do feel let down. And I'm angry at being sidetracked into ranting about them, as every second spent doing that is a second I'd be better spending with my DCs. To make things worse DD overheard me asking H how someone's parents could seemingly dislike them so much, so I've had to deal with her understandable questions about that too.

Sorry, just needed to vent. Otherwise, H, kids and I went on to have a good day together. Hope you're all faring well x

Thistle, you poor thing. Under similar circumstances many years ago my dad told me that I had broken his heart and he had no more tears to cry. I love my parents very much but I managed to say to him that if HE had cried so many tears over it, how did he think I felt?

I am happy to say he got over himself

Tired, so happy for you and your new home. You can sleep over when you feel you can. Don't be hard on yourself.

Thanks Feck, it is strangely reassuring to know that someone else has experienced the same - I'm glad your dad came to his senses.

I fear my dad's sense of righteousness will prevent him from getting over himself fully, but we'll see. My mum has since apologised, I think she realises that if they continue with that approach that we will simply stay away, and she won't want to lose contact with the DCs.

I've managed to tell the mums of the DCs best friends today, so hopefully the local jungle drums will do their usual work now.

DCs themselves have continued to be amazing. They do ask questions as they pop into their heads, which has thrown me a couple of times, but they're still all good, reasonable questions.

Cannot, thanks for your comment earlier, I hope today has been a better day for you.

Thistle, my dad has a very strong sense of righteousness too. I was brought up in quite a narrow christian community. People in my background don't get divorced! Except of course they do!
It took my dad about 6 months to come round. Now we are closer than ever .

My mum was pretty disapproving too. She asked if there was violence, drink, or a third person involved . ( no, no, and no) Those were the only three acceptable reasons she could envisage for giving up on a marriage.

I just kept away from them for a few months and it was strangely liberating. I was in a kind of no man's land anyway , with friendships shifting around me, living in a crummy bedsit and stuff.

This was all years ago and we came through it and I became closer than ever to both mum and dad

Thistle it must be hard your parents reacting like that, I think it is a massively innate need to crave support from our parents in difficult times. I don't think I will get that much emotional support from my Mum if me and DP split up. My DF is pretty useless in situations like that, he "doesn't 'do' family" in his own words, but I don't think he will judge me.

How is everyone else doing on this thread? Haven't heard from some people in a long time.

Hi, me again. Thistle big hugs for you, sorry to hear how your parents. With regards to the house, I'm like that when in the house alone to, all the lights have to go on, it's crazy! Try and just relax and enjoy the freedom you have, read a book, have the music on, whatever, just enjoy it.

I don't know what's happening with me and H. We've been 'trying' to make things better for the last month or so, but it's just not really working. We had a huge fight again tonight over H not being happy for my mum to help us out with baby sitting, and only wanting his parents to. Well I kind of blew up, as I'm so sick of him always being so negative of my family. Well it ended in him saying how sick he was of the way I act, me saying that I feel the same, and him saying that we need to start divorce proceedings and that if I don't he will. I'm not sure how serious he is about that, but we're not speaking at all now and are completely avoiding each other.

He does try, and he has been really trying this last month, but it's just not enough, too late, I don;t know. I know that the thought of staying with him makes me feel like I'm giving up/in and that I am being a mug and settling. So much has happened in the past that I just can't let go off. Also all I keep on thinking is that if I stay with him then I'll never find someone who truly makes me happy. I feel sad at how things are between us, I hate seeing him upset like this and know it's cause of me. I know I said a lot of really nasty and hurtful things tonight, but if I say sorry then everything will carry on how it always does. I'm so torn in two. Part of me wants to go to him, hug him and say how sorry I am, the other part of me wants the 'threatened' divorce. I still remember how good things used to be, I remember when we both thought we'd love each other that much forever, the feeling of butterfly's when we saw each other, the laughs and enjoyment we had, the way I loved looking at him, touching him, and that I felt so lucky and special to be with him. I also worry that even if I left him, that I'd never be happy, as I'd sabotage any other relationship, or I'd end up regretting leaving. How am I meant to know whats the right choice when one path is a complete unknown...

Sorry it's so long, I just needed to talk, as my head is all confused right now and H is obviously not talking to me. I can;t ring my mum, H would hear, and I don't have any friends I can talk to about this. Just sitting here trying not to cry right now, trying to think what I should do.. x

Oh pulled I am sorry you are feeling so down tonight, you are not on your own! I can hold your hand for a bit but soooo bloody exhausted I am going to get some sleep soon.

It sounds like your feelings have not changed much over the last month. Your partner though, I remember a month ago, was desperate for you to keep trying, and now he is mentioning divorce. Do you think he means it or do you think he is calling your bluff?

PS I don't think you would sabotage all future relationships because This one hasn't worked out. One thing I am trying to do at the moment is let go of any feelings I have about my situation ties in with guilt. It is bloody hard, and not really working, but it is helpin me identify them nonetheless. I think it is just the guilt in you making you think like that.

Tied, not ties.

This thread could have been started by me! Hope you don't mind me looking through to see how some of you have made 'the' decision

Thistle I'm really sorry about your mum and dad. I know how it feels, it doesn't matter how shit they've been before, you can't help still wishing, against reason, that they will come up with the goods and support you when you are in need and it's horribly disappointing when they don't.

This was the scenario with my mum earlier this year. My dad isn't really an issue, he is so dominated by my mum he doesn't really take any position of his own. Try not to let it get to you. Odd though, isn't it, getting support from your dh for your parents being shit, when they are upset because you are doing something to dh that he doesn't want!! Maybe I am reading that wrong, but that's what happened here - I was moaning to dh a few weeks ago about my mum giving me no support re the separation.

Pulled you sound so sad. I'm sorry. There is an awful grieving process around doing all this, grieving the happy marriage you feel is lost and the hopes and dreams you had at the beginning. The torment when you are in the limbo stage, not knowing what to do, is awful. I hope that you will find a way forward soon.

Well I spent last night in my new house :)

It was odd, but nice, waking up there this morning. But I missed the girls, of course. I had a tiring day at work then went home and immediately started manically decorating. I have an au pair coming tomorrow and this was my last chance to do her room, a task I have been putting off.

I've got no internet, fridge or landline and my mobile doesn't work at the new house, so I feel a bit disconnected. Well I am - literally!

I'm in the family home right now. Jesus. I got here about half past eight and walked into the middle of some drama - the girls bickering about various trivial things. Both ended up in tears. Dh has always had selective hearing about these kind of arguments. I had literally been in the house two minutes, and elder dd burst into tears and ran off to the kitchen, so I went to comfort her. In the meantime I heard dh banging around in the hall, then shout - I heard 'fucking' involved somewhere but didn't hear what he said, and then my other daughter ran upstairs in hysterical tears and the front door slammed.

Dh had lost his rag, shouted at dd2 and stormed out of the house. He is back now, and said he 'went for a stroll' because of their arguing. It was horrible, he stormed out and left me with both of them in tears. He doesn't usually lose his temper like this but then he has always left me to sort out the arguments... It makes me worry about his ability to deal with them when I am not here - maybe that's the idea. I'm annoyed because he only stormed off because I was here to deal with it. And I had only just arrived and it kind of looks like me turning up has created a nasty situation, which it didn't.

I don't think he is coping well and I think he can't believe I have actually moved out.

I love being at the new house, but I really miss the girls. The reality of sharing them is starting to sink in. They came round for tea last night and it was just lovely, really relaxed.

It's depressing and sad to come and find the family home looking so awful as well. It's a mess and looks dreadful with half the stuff gone. He's not even bothering to keep it tidy.

I feel for him, and I know he is having a hard time, but I also think dh isn't making things easier for the kids with this anger. It's like he wants to make things as shit as possible, to demonstrate to me how awful this thing I have done - leaving him and breaking up the family - is.

I don't think this is helpful to anyone but especially not the children. Maybe I am being unreasonable expecting him to be adult and together about it all when it isn't what he wants. I've had the new house since August though, so it's not exactly a shock that I've finally gone to live there.

:(

Tired, it does sound like he is making things a shit as possible in a " see what you have done" way.
He needs to get over himself . And tidy up
Congratulations on the new house

cannot I'm pretty sure he's just calling my bluff. And trying to push me towards apologizing and trying to make it all better. I hate seeing him hurt like this, and I'm having a constant battle with myself to not text him and get back in the same old cycle. I am really sad, I want things for the future like family Christmases and a sibling for our DD. I want family days out, I love seeing how happy H and DD are when they play together, but I can't stand the way I'm the only one who does the 'nasty' jobs, who cooks, cleans and organizes everything. I hate the way H trusts no-one apart from him, me and nursery for our DD, and will only be happy with his parents watching her if absolutely neccesery. We can have good times and laughs, but that just confuses me more. TBH I don't want to choose either path, they are both good and bad.

Really glad your first night in the new house went well tiered well done. Sorry I'm only moaning about my problems, I'm just so tiered and down cause of it all. At uni now, trying o o burst out crying, I'm pathetic.

Thanks for all your lovely messages :).

Confused you are most welcome to look through, hope it helps with your own decision.

Pulled it sounds as if you're both at a fork in the road. It is a painful place to be and it can take a while to work out which way to go. Since your DH has now mentioned starting "divorce proceedings", is it worth having a conversation about what that will look like, i.e. who goes where, when it might happen? I think once you start talking about practicalities you might become clearer on whether to stay or go. Can you visualise your life if you stay, and what does it look like if you're on your own? Good luck, and keep posting for hand-holding if you need it.

Tired - congrats on your first night in your new house! Glad you loved it. Re the bickering from your girls - I often find that when I've been away/out and someone else has the DCs, if they haven't felt able to argue when I've been away, it spills out as soon as I walk in the door. They just feel safer in your presence, I guess, which is a positive thing (just doesn't feel like it at the time). They know you'll help them with their feelings, rather than dwell on your own.

I agree that your DH is trying to make things look as shit as possible. Hopefully he will eventually realise that he is achieving nothing that way. I suspect my H will do something similar, looking for pity, once he has moved out. They are pretty good at hitting our guilt buttons, aren't they?

My mum wanted to "pop round for a chat" last night, I managed to fend her off (had to very firmly say, don't come round here unless we agree it first), and phoned her instead. Didn't pull my punches, but remained calm and relatively kind, so if she doesn't know how I feel about their lack of support now, she never will. I think she did eventually listen, although a lot of her "concerns" weren't about me or the kids at all, she was more worried about my in-laws having more contact with the DCs than them. She had also chosen to interpret what my H said to her (when he was talking to her about needing to support me), as me dropping this bombshell on H the day before we told everyone else - as if we had never discussed separating over the last few months! This is fairly typical of how she views me - as a "silly girl".

She also told me that I've changed over the last couple of years.... I could hardly tell her it was because they are toxic and I've been withdrawing.... so I just said that I hoped that if I had changed as a person, it was for the better.

Anyway, today is another day, hope it is a good one for you all x

Sorry Pulled, I missed your last post. You sound like you feel really trapped. Have you read Too Good To Leave, Too Bad To Stay by Mira Kirschenbaum? Sorry if I've recommended this to you before, but the questions in there really helped me to sort through my feelings, and to consider aspects of our relationship that I might have otherwise forgotten to include.

Thank you thistle H is hard to talk to, he gets upset, I feel like a bitch, its awful. We have talked about it before, DD would have 50/50 with us etc, I'd move out and so on, but then I feel so guilty as I'm the one who would be tearing the family apart. H also says he'll do anything he can to keep me, he loves me, still feels the same about me as when we got together etc, but I don't think he can actually see the problems, he thinks he's made massive changes and that things have been so much better recently, but I feel differently .

I am debating with myself as to whether to wrote an e-mail to H as to how I'm feeling today? Every time I try to write it though it sounds like a break up letter. Feel like crying and or being sick right now.

I recognise a lot of what you are saying, my DH said the same things and is still very upset that we have separated. And I felt (and still feel) guilty about tearing the family apart.... Except that's not really what is happening here. What you're trying to do is make a happier life for you and your DC, and you're trying to work out which way is likely to be best. Ultimately if you and DC are happy, there is every chance that your DH will end up happier too.

My DH wrote me an email. He said a lot of things in it which I felt were very harsh, and which he probably wouldn't have spoken in the same way. They are indelibly etched in my mind now. So I would urge caution about what you do put down in black and white, because it's there forever. Might be worth just writing/typing what you think you'd like to say, keeping it to yourself for now, and looking at it again in a few days time? Or saying all these things to a trusted friend? Quite often, I find just saying things aloud gives you a fresh insight into how you're really feeling x

Pulled I agree with Thistle, maybe you should use his mention of divorce proceedings to have a talk about what divorce would look like for the both of you. Me and DP began talking about what may happen if we did separate a few weeks ago, and it really helped us both I think, as it seems we both had very different ideas of what the other would want to happen if we did separate. DP thought that I may want to leave the kids with him, I thought he would try and go for full custody; we were both wrong!

I am sorry you feel so trapped, I know exactly how you feel . I also want what you want, a happy family unit. I don't think there is anyone in our situation who doesn't, and that wish certainly muddles the waters. I have now decided not to make any decisions until after Christmas, but I worry that we cannot continue how we are for another 2-3 months. DP is still sleeping in the very cold attic room, and is pretty miserable.

He is trying to put a brave face on things but his misery comes out occasionally, when he is tired or he has had a few drinks. I know he is angry, and he has admitted he does not know what to do with his angry feelings or how to process them, so sometimes I am scared, although he has not done anything to warrant me feeling scared. This means I feel like I am walking on eggshells as I do not know what he is going to react like from one minute to the next. One minute he is doing nice things for me, the next he is leaving song lyrics he has written out for me screwed up where I can find them, making veiled comments if I re-do my makeup before going out to my drawing evening class, spend too long on my phone mumsnetting etc.etc.

I like not having him in our bed or getting in the shower with me when I am getting ready for work, or asking me for sex. I can't imagine ever wanting to be sexually active with him again. This is a massive factor in my hopes for the future, as I think that if we can't recover that it does not matter if we can have days / weeks where we get along and have a laugh, and work well as a parenting team.

I used to think that because we get on okay the majority of the time we should stay together, but I am beginning to see that probably only a small precentage of relationships that fail are all bad. Most are paertly still good, which is where the confusion lies.

Thistle I hope you have RL support to replace that which you are missing from your parents .

Tired glad you have spent a night on your own in your new home. It wil feel more "yours" now I am sure. Try not to let XDP guilt you too much, rise above it. Your DCs sound pretty clued up and will see through it all once the dust has settled.

X-Post with Pulled and Thistle. Pulled maybe writing things down will help you see through the muddied waters, but I also would not send the letter / email straight away, but return to it in a couple of days.

I have talked about the situation with a couple of friends recently, and interestingly they both picked up on me saying "it would all be my fault" with the same answer. They both said that there is no fault issue in a breakup where no-one has done anything majorly wrong, it is just something that has happened. It made me feel better for a millisecond, but then I have my issues around guilt I have to deal with myself as well.

Thank you all for the support. I know that sending the e-mail would be a bad idea, but I hate this silence, and he knows it. He has always resorted to ignoring me if we fight or I say things he doesn't like. I'm just so scared of making the wrong decision. I don;t have any close friends so don;t have anyone to talk to, and I don't really want to get my mum involved. I am waiting to hear back on a counselling appointment at uni to help me talk it all out, but until I've made a decision I don;t know how to proceed. If we were divorcing then there'd be things to do, if we were staying together then again I would have something to get on with, but what do I do in this limbo. What do I tell H. He'll either want me to say we're divorcing or we're trying again...

Do you still love him Pulled? Deep down? I know it is not an easy question to answer, but go with your gut instinct and first reaction when answering it, rather than analysing all the other stuff that will pop into your head, especially those thoughts associated with your guilt, when looking at the answer. Separate your thoughts from your home, your DC, your past, and just concentrate on how you would feel if it was just you and him, and you were facing the next few months just the two of you somewhere away from all the problems and joys your life together inhabits at the moment.

I have done this. It has helped me clarify my feelings for our relationship, rather than concentrating on all the other stuff we have built around it when considering whether I want to stay with him.

I do love him, I think I always will. But I think it is more a love I have for friends, mu mum, my DD. I don't feel attracted to him, I don't fancy him and I don't feel romantically connected to him. I find my self wanting to be with other men, i.e date, not just sex, I meet so badly, and getting sad that I can't. I think if I met my H now, then we wouldn't get together, he is so different to the person I fell in love with. He thinks that it's because we're stuck in a rut cause of education, and that things would be better if we could go on holidays etc, but I think that even then things wouldn't be ok, as it's fundamental things that we don;t agree on, parenting, money, family etc. I know I haven't mentioned this before, but there was violence from both of us in the past (5 years ago the last time), and I just can;t let that go, I feel stupid for still being with him. I see things on tv about DV and it gets me sad and angry all over again that we have that in our past. I'm starting to think this might be it now, as H is still completely ignoring me. x

Oh Pulled I think you have your answer . It all depends if you are one of those people who can stay in an unhappy marriage, because I really do believe a marraige / partnership will only end up unhappy if one person in the partnership feels romantic love for the other, and the other only feels friendship love . By "do you love him?" I meant "do you love him romantically"?

I think once that has gone it is bloody hard to get back, especially if there is a history of DV. I also believe a partnership needs to be singing off the same hymn sheet when it comes to basic values and beliefs about money, parenting etc.

Hope I am ok to put a quick post on here, it is bloody hard to get that back - but it can be done - stay strong everyone.

Unfair I think you can get it back, yes, but I also think you need to have very firm foundations to build on again.

I think among other things, DV, differing basic life values and outlooks, a build up of resentment, lack of sexual attraction do not make a strong foundation. That list, by the way pulled, is not aimed at you, but are my thoughts on the obvious things that can damage a relationship beyond repair.