Think my DH is sleeping with someone but can't prove it - WWYD?

[Brassica]

This is long, sorry. My DH and I have been married for 6 years and have 18 month old twins. He has previously been a completely exemplary husband - so loving, thoughtful, attentive, reassuring, fun-loving, cuddly, open, kind... Yet recently I have found myself more and more sure that he is cheating because there is stuff I just can't explain any other way, and most of it revolves around the use of his work Blackberry.

1. Firstly, he is quite distant. Gone are the spontaneous hugs, hand holds, kisses, 'love you's, etc and that was the first thing I noticed. I put it down to being so rushed with the twins that opportunities to do it are lost. We have averaged sex about once a month since they came along - I have not been initiating it really because of tiredness/slight hang ups over my body but he has not seemed bothered at all - has never seemed discontent about it.
2. He disappears upstairs on his own every evening (at least once, sometimes several times) and is not checking on the twins. Gone for 5-15 minutes each time. No mention when he comes down that he's been doing anything. Each time it is when I am safely occupied with something - washing up, watching something on TV. Yesterday I quietly came upstairs to see if I could hear what he was doing but couldn't - all I could tell was he was in our room with the lights off and when I asked 'what were you doing in there?!' he just said 'nothing' and stepped into the twins' room to check on them.
3. He keeps his Blackberry on his person at all times - which he has never done before. In the past if he's needed to look at work emails etc then it has been done openly and explaining that he's promised to deal with something.
4. Keeping his Blackberry on him is done secretly - I only know because I check his bag periodically at times when it should be there and it's not, but then a bit later it quietly reappears.
5. The reason why I have started checking where it is is that the other week he came in very late after a work night out, and although he woke me up I think he thought I'd dozed off again. He stood with his back to the bed tapping away on a device - I thought he must be checking cricket scores on his phone or something, but then at the end he dropped the device into his bag and it was therefore his Blackberry. At 1.30am and while drunk/tired is anyone checking work emails?
6. I can't remember when it started but for a while now (weeks? months?) he has engineered a reason to leave the house without me on days when we are there together - volunteering to take the twins for a walk "so I can have a break" or going to the supermarket, or on Sunday going into town to see the end of the women's road race. On Sunday he took his camera with him and in the bag was his Blackberry (I had a very swift look)...
7. It was my birthday the other week - a 'special' one - and although he ticked all the boxes pretty much like taking me out for lunch, it didn't feel like a special one from his end. He didn't say happy birthday for about the first 5 minutes we were awake, he didn't remember to get me a present or card from the twins, he didn't 'make a fuss of me'. I had a party with lots of friends and family and I think the old DH would have said a few words but he didn't.

So it's just unsubstantiated hunches but I am struggling to see why he would be doing this stuff apart from to allow him to contact someone else either by phone or text/email without me knowing. The twins must serve as a great distraction because he knows when I am dealing with them I can't do much else.

I tried to broach the subject the other day but only got as far as addressing the distant attitude, which he has apparently tried to put right the last few days, so there have been more kisses and a bit more attentiveness, but he didn't even react when I mentioned about our sex life being too sporadic. I felt as though I couldn't challenge him on the Blackberry use because I don't have a shred of evidence.

So what would you do? I don't have a clue what the password is for his Blackberry so I can't take a look at it (on the rare occasion it's not on his person). If I bring up my suspicions then he's just going to deny it, isn't he? He'll find reasons to explain it and cast doubt on my gut feeling. I find it unbelievable that he, of all people, could cheat, but then I find the way he's behaving even more unbelievable at the moment.

I think in practice NaturalWorrier, very few people snoop without first making efforts to resolve the unhappiness that has entered the relationship. But if at that point their partner lies and either omits to mention that an affair might be influencing their behaviour, or by completely denying that there is an involvement with someone else AND the behaviour complained about remains unchanged or worsened, at that point the trust has been irreversibly damaged anyway, but by the lying partner - not the recipient of those lies.

In one of my earlier posts, I mentioned that a reasonably good indicator of an affair is whether the behaviour changes for the better, having had that conversation. If it's an affair, generally there will be no discernible improvement at all and if behaviour changes, it's usually for the worse. At that point it's no use pretending that there is trust, because there isn't. Most emotionally healthy who are not usually paranoid or obsessive recognise that they have lost trust for a good reason and so at that point, rather than prolong those alien and uncomfortable feelings of paranoia that are extremely damaging to a person's mental health, they decide to look for independent evidence.

Snooping at that point is not going to make an iota of difference
to a partner's trust, because by default the urge to snoop on its own means the trust has gone.

It's also rather naive to think that everyone has either the capability or the responsibility to know when someone is lying to us. It is the antithesis of your argument about the value of trust. When people trust their partners and have never had reasons to think that they tell lies, how would they know what a 'lie' looked like, if it had never happened before? It might be different for those who are partnered with people who have form for lying about all sorts of things, but that would rather suggest that trust wasn't present in the relationship in the first place, wouldn't it?

Hi Brassica,

I don't have much time at the moment so haven't been able to read through the whole thread and all the responses but I just wanted to say that it doesn't necessarily sound like he's having an affair to me.

My husband is addicted to his work blackberry, I quite often wake up at 2/3am and find him tapping away on it. It is pretty much the first thing he checks in the morning and the last thing he looks at before he goes to bed. I know for absolutely certain that there is nothing sinsiter in his behaviour - he just loves his job & works very hard.

You don't mention what kind of job your husband has, but I think a lot of men find the responsibility of having a family to "provide" for very stressful and it can make them take their work a lot more seriously. I'm sure this is even more the case in today's economic climate when there are often threats of redundancy, pay freezes and so on on the horrizon....

The other things you mention don't sound too out of the ordinary to me either...i think most couples find it hard to find the time to be intimate with one another once a baby comes along, and with twins I'm sure it must be doubly so.

Did you tell your husband that you were upset about the lack of "fuss" on your birthday? What was his reaction to that?

I'm not saying others on here are wrong. I too am a great believer in trusting your instincts and you know your relationship better than any of us on here so only you can say for sure if things aren't right. But be careful about going too far with the snooping...if you go to some of the lengths suggested on this thread then I'm not sure the relationship could survive even if you find that there is nothing dodgy going on.

I really hope it all works out well for you. Take care of yourself and your lovely babies xxx

"I think in practice NaturalWorrier, very few people snoop without first making efforts to resolve the unhappiness that has entered the relationship. But if at that point their partner lies and either omits to mention that an affair might be influencing their behaviour, or by completely denying that there is an involvement with someone else AND the behaviour complained about remains unchanged or worsened, at that point the trust has been irreversibly damaged anyway, but by the lying partner - not the recipient of those lies.

In one of my earlier posts, I mentioned that a reasonably good indicator of an affair is whether the behaviour changes for the better, having had that conversation. If it's an affair, generally there will be no discernible improvement at all and if behaviour changes, it's usually for the worse. At that point it's no use pretending that there is trust, because there isn't. Most emotionally healthy who are not usually paranoid or obsessive recognise that they have lost trust for a good reason and so at that point, rather than prolong those alien and uncomfortable feelings of paranoia that are extremely damaging to a person's mental health, they decide to look for independent evidence.

Snooping at that point is not going to make an iota of difference
to a partner's trust, because by default the urge to snoop on its own means the trust has gone. "

Agree with this completely.

In this case, I get the impression that no effort has been made to resolve the unhappniess by either party, which is why the suggestion from me would be to speak to the OH first, and if no changes happen, then reasses.

I just got the impression that the first thing a lot of people on here think is "Snoop - they are cheating", which I don't think is right.

Again, confused 247 - exactly what I think.

No, Brassica said this in her OP:

I tried to broach the subject the other day but only got as far as addressing the distant attitude, which he has apparently tried to put right the last few days, so there have been more kisses and a bit more attentiveness, but he didn't even react when I mentioned about our sex life being too sporadic.

Brassica has therefore tried to bring some honesty to the table, but her concerns remain. Her husband offered no reasons for why he has been distant and completely evaded her concerns about their sex life. Posters' impressions were therefore that her husband probably wanted this uncomfortable conversation over as quickly as possible and that there were likely to be reasons for why he ignored issues raised and offered no plausible explanations.

So she only mentioned the distant attitude and the sex life, she didn't mention the blackberry, the dissapearing upstairs, the concerns about the big birthday or the other concerns she has? Did she even ask for an explanation? And if he didn't react about the sex life, it could be that he too has concerns, but didn't know how to approach it?

I could be wrong, but I just get the impression that a more open conversation needs to take place.

As in "I am worried you are having an affair, you constantly keep your blackberry on you, you dissapear upstairs, and you don't seem bothered about our sporadic sex life".

You don't generally get a decent answer from men unless you take the direct approach IMO.

Personally, I think a blackberry is for work and if you need to look at it, it should be during work time. If you are at home, the blackberry is off. Fair enough on the odd emergency, but not every day.

Ground rules need to be set.

In the past, his BB was very definitely just for work use and the minute he came through the front door, it was in the bag and indeed switched off. He never looked at it except on odd occasions when something was going on that required his attention, e.g. a tight deadline or discussions in another time zone. On those occasions it was announced to me and generally done while I was there. That has certainly changed on both counts.

NW I think you are correct that an attempt at a conversation should be had before pockets start being rifled and private detectives called. I have attempted two conversations with him now where I have very clearly signposted my unhappiness with his distant attitude, my worries that something is bothering him, and our lack of physical contact. The more recent conversation got derailed (by him) before I could bring up the BB use as he got stuck in to coming up with practical solutions to me feeling I have no time to myself etc, and in any event at that point I did really want to keep my powder dry on the BB because I didn't want to bring up accusations until I was sure there was something to them. As for disappointment about my birthday, as I mentioned I got taken out for lunch and did get presents (after a hurried shopping trip in the case of the twins) so it is part of what's making my antennae twitch but isn't something to gripe about openly I don't feel. I'm not a spoiled brat, just used to the extra 10% effort being made that wasn't there this year, which is odd in a special year!

"""could be wrong, but I just get the impression that a more open conversation needs to take place.

As in "I am worried you are having an affair, you constantly keep your blackberry on you, you dissapear upstairs, and you don't seem bothered about our sporadic sex life".

You don't generally get a decent answer from men unless you take the direct approach IMO. """""

And in the la la land where you live if he is havng an affair he will instantly admit everything, fall on his knees before her, beg forgiveness, work at being an ideal husband and they will live happiliy ever after.

In the real world, he will admit only what he has to, ie, what he thinks she already knows,

he will become much more subtle with the phone,

he will be somewhat agreeved that the wife is nosey about his phone obsession. Privacy is terribly important to him dont you know, he isnt being secretive at all.

the wife, if he is really on form will also feel a bit guilty that she has queationed his behavior and be somewhat backfooted with regrds to questioing him further.

He will lie in her face, making her believe that black is white, because she really really wants to believe him.

She will quietly lose her mind and her belief in her own judgement and instincts.

@Brassica

In light of your new information (ie: you have tried twice to talk to him), I would give him an ultimatum - he needs to change or the relationship is over.

The question I would ask you: if you knew 100% now that he wasn't having an affair, could you still accept the way he treats you? The answer is probably no, which is where the focus should be.

Similary, if you knew 100% that he was having an affair you still wouldn't accept the way he treats you. The outcome is the same, except the trust is gone.

If he is having and affair his lack of interest will continue, in which case you are in your rights to end the relationship. And don't ever feel guilty about questioning how someone behaves in a relationship.

Perhaps even counselling may be a good step -ie: relate for you or both of you? Counselling is more about communicating and getting information in order to come to a decision than anything, so perhaps that is what you can suggest to him?

His behaviour certainly indicates that you and your feelings are not a priority, or his thoughts are elsewhere, especially given the hastily made plans for your special birthday.

I asked mine STBExH outright and he confessed, but he minimised it totally, the reality was quite grim. If he doesn't admit it, a refusal to show you the bb will be confirmation enough. Although if you need black and white evidence for a divorce it's better to have either him admitting it or evidence. I emailed myself texts off his phone in case he ever back-tracked - but I said admitting it on the official documents would be the least he could do in the circumstances.

Do you know if you have your suspicions confirmed, and it is an affair, what you are going to do?

Brassica

Always, always go with your gut instinct, it's usually right. If you are going to ask him outright then keep what little info you have to yourself... Tell him you KNOW he's having an affair but don't tell him how. If he denys it then tell him you'll prove it and ask him for his phone and his password. His reaction will speak volumes. If he is using it to talk to the OW but deletes all communication (which he would if he was having an affair), he'll still panic that he might have left something on there so won't give it to you. If he's not got OW then he might complain about giving you access but he will do it. You may end up eating humble pie if it turns out to be nothing, but do force the issue, my ExH didn't admit it straight away, it was only when he was backed into a corner and it was obvious I wouldn't let it drop he eventually admitted it.

Don't think he won't talk to the OW via text or email when he's with you, my ExH had no problems with doing that. But, as you've said previously, mine got sloppy and used to getting away with it, which was how he got caught. I had no physical evidence he was up to no good, just a gut instinct.

Horrid? Ok I think I am one of the most honourable straightforward people I know but I 'snooped' because I was slowly going mad with wondering and worrying.

Another 'snooper' here. After being drip fed information I was then given access to dp's phone by himself, all of his passwords etc. What he had failed to realise however was that some deleted messages remained, messages from apparently a man, obviously a woman saved under a mans name. After this point everything came out once and for all and it was only then that my antennae stopped twitching! I'm so glad I looked for further evidence myself!

And the same as Orm, I felt like I was losing the plot, it's AWFUL feeling that sense of unease KNOWING that there's something terribly wrong, something going on all around you that you're powerless to do anything about unless you step up and take control!

Hi there, like you I have wondering and worrying that my DH has been dipping his wick so to speak. To me it doesn't bode well what you have been describing. You are not going mad you are well and truely distracted with your twins, like me with my DD and DS. I have made it really easy for him lately if he is up to something to carry on with it undected as I have moved away from London, he still works in london and comes home every 4-5 days, we also used to work in the same field which i recently have left and to concentrate on the DC. I had a good snoop on his phone today and found an email from someone under a male name of pornographic content. It may be a male friend emailing porn on but why keep it???? It was recorded on a samsung device, only had limited access to the phone but will try to access it again soon. Also found out that DH is on twitter claiming it was to find out train times. I really really have a deep down gut feeling he is up to something but can't prove it. He deletes all his history on his phone computer you name it but claims he has always done this, which he has as I feel he has been caught out before with it and learnt from it. Unfortunately my DH had a girlfriend when I met him and didn't tell me he did so he used to cheat on her to see me. So the old saying goes those that with will get cheated on!!!! I really wish I could find out what he is up to and who with and would make me make some much needed decisions in my life, as I like to have cold hard evidence before I make a decision.

I also asked him outright if he was having an affair, he had his arms crossed around his body looked me in the eye and lowered his voice and denied it, what do you think?????

What are you going to do angel?

My instincts say yes, He hasn't changed his password to the phone and lets the DC's play with it sometimes, but there is a but, it is constantly with him, its always going off, texts emails etc when he is at home, its even by his side of the bed most nights, I know he isn't a very good sleeper so he could be on it through the night for all I know when I am asleep as after a long week looking after the DC's housework etc etc I am shattered so I am out for the count. I know it sounds pathetic and I should just tell him to leave which I have done in the past due to his behaviour I want a reason, cold hard facts that can be explained does that make sense not just my gut feeling, I really do trust the womens intuition but it's the DC's the familys, the financial implications. I have moved areas so want to be more secure financially have support around me in place before I do it , or can that be a never ending piece of string and strike while the iron is hot.

Angel - You know your dh better than anybody, I knew dp wasn't being straight with me last year when my suspicions were raised about something I'd seen via fb, I just couldn't shrug the unease I felt but we carried on, Christmas came and went. Another event happened earlier this year (I won't go into detail otherwise this post will be very long) which raised my hackles, dp began to crumble with the guilt but still didn't tell me everything. His excuse for not telling me everything all at once was that he'd dug one almighty hole and couldn't bring himself to tell me everything, whether I still wouldn't know to this day remains but without that extra phone evidence I may still have been in the dark and his fantasy bubble would still be intact. As it stands I well and truly burst it and the guilt he then felt was immense.

Go with your gut but you're wise to hold back on actions until you can get actual proof, this being as you've actually asked your dh and his response was very guarded.

I'm still with dp btw. It's been over four months and we're working through the mess he's caused.

Thank you looksgoodingravy, Its hard though isn't it, trying not to obsess about it but I know one day I will find out what I need to know. Good to know there are others in the same boat and finding out what they did to find out etc etc and that I am not going mad, going through an early menapause, depressed bipolar, you name it I have thought of it that could be wrong with me when it has been staring me in the face all along but I have been in denial and not wanting to think about what it could be. By the way DH acussed me of being bipolar once and I am not, nor depressed just pissed off and fed up of my crap marriage probably. Although to the outside world I have got a good un apparently.

It is awful trying not to obsess about it. What I learned about dp was that he was able to compartmentalise, I'm not saying this is what your dh is doing but dp still clams he loved me during his betrayals, he had a free rein last year, well he always has done but he was out far more. The phone was the biggest clue though, the one image I still have is how tetchy he was when ds wanted to play a game on it, he let him but hovered not wanting to let the phone out of his sight whereas previous it had not been a problem. This image still annoys the hell out of me as ds was reduced to tears almost having the phone snatched out of his hands and now I know why .

The trouble though with sites such as this one is that it could almost make you positive something is going on, there are probably lots more mnetters who have different outcomes to mine and others. I don't know how helpful this site would have been when I was only suspicious, knowing what I know now it possibly would have been extremely helpful but it could have also made me more paranoid, I don't know, don't know if I'm making much sense it's just a bloody hard position to be in and I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy...well maybe one or two!