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Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

Separation & beyond.. Lala goes forth!!!

636 replies

LalaDipsey · 01/08/2012 18:49

Hi everyone. Well, the saga continues. H turned up for his single 'abuse assessment session' on Monday to find that the counsellor had, by mistake, booked him in for Wednesday instead of Monday! I was fuming!
I spoke to them and said it may just be one more week to them, but to me I had mentally psyched myself up for H to have this DV assessment and was then ready for a session this Monday coming either together or on my own. Nothing could be done but I was gutted as I had hoped us to be significantly further along by next week and now we won't be.
On the plus side, night 3 of sleep training tonight so hoping for a massive improvement.
Had no idea what to call this thread... Felt this was still the right place as I extricate us from this relationship but I hope by the time this reaches 1000 posts H has either moved out, or is living here whilst the divorce is being processed so I hope the title sums that up!!
Thanks for everyone still with me

OP posts:
LalaDipsey · 07/09/2012 21:35

Hi. Thanks all, and thanks math for asking about dtd.
UTI should be clear now and she had a kidney and bladder scan in Wednesday which was clear so all is good (they were checking for damage caused by the UTI or abnormalities to cause it). I just have to insist on testing for a UTI if she is unwell at all again, as another one triggers further investigations, and be careful when she has a raised temp as she may fit again.
H is still being helpful and nice. And he is still drinking a couple of beers a night.
There's no point reading the thread to remind me - I keep remembering more and more incidents - it's like the fact that I've 'woken up' to his behaviour seems to have stirred all these memories. Not all are 'biggies' but a couple are. I just keep remembering and re-living.
And can't equate any of it with the H who has now been pretty 'normal' for 11 days.
A question for you - how will I know he has/hasn't changed if he doesn't live here? Most of his anger is triggered by dc and objects not behaving as they should. And his drinking. How can I tell if he's reverted to type if I can't see?
I promise you neither I nor dc are living in a remotely abusive environment right now.
I have many concerns and one is being back at the bottom in 2 years time and have wasted 2 years because he spirals.
Then I think, he can't last at 2 beers for long.
Then I think he was at the pub for 1.5hrs tonight - he must have had more than 2 - but how will I know?
Then I think and remember some other shitty think he did and wonder why I am giving him this opportunity to try and change my mind.

He is away every other Monday now so I will get a counselling session on my own every 2 weeks.

Thanks for your continued support - I am listening and I am hearing you. And I am agreeing with you. And I would advise myself to do the same thing.
It's just so hard to do.
I agree with the fact that if he was horrible now it would be so much easier.

OP posts:
mathanxiety · 07/09/2012 22:41

That sounds like a good idea wrt the UTI -- it's hard to spot until you are experiencing big problems so best to test first. Whenever DS was really under the weather, off his food, and had a fever I used to take him for a strep test and then insist they not rely on the quick office test results which always showed a negative - it always came back positive from the lab.

Wrt the H..

You are at home with three DCs under age 3. He knows drinking keeps him from being an adequate father - maybe he even uses it as a way to escape - but still he is at the pub. He is drinking his two lagers a night even when not in the pub. He knows that drinking keeps one foot in the non-relationship camp.

The fact that he has not addressed his drinking in a way that involves a public commitment not to drink, or accountability to people he makes that commitment to (a rehab programme), and the fact that he continues to drink and doesn't seem to feel he owes it to you and the DCs to approach proper help about it point (imo) to a man who still wants to have it both ways. An indication he is willing to change would be his willingness to leave while he commits himself to sobriety. The willingness is what is necessary here. The willingness is what is absent.

Most of his anger is triggered by dc and objects not behaving as they should.
If you believe that he is set off by the DCs and by objects not behaving as they should (wondering what you mean here?) then by staying, and keeping on drinking while he stays, he is saying others need to change in order for him to behave better. This is a bit of a control game he has going on -- he is telling you that you need to make the DCs change and life at home needs to revolve around him; he is telling you that keeping him from going off the rails is the job of other people (you and even the little DCs) and not him.

If he was committed to change, above all else he would admit to an alcohol counsellor or to a 12 step group or therapist that he has a problem that he wants to overcome, and he would accept the accountability that goes with that sort of admission. Right now he is still guarding the alcoholism from outside interference, still addicted and not willing to give it up.

How can I tell if he's reverted to type if I can't see?
Along with the commitment to accountability and responsibility would go the commitment to the family's financial security. There would be serious efforts to pay more of the mortgage and he would get the insurance that you do not have right now. (Trying to remember back to the financial issues you described a while ago). You will know if he is still drinking or if he has changed when you see that he has decided how to prioritise the spending of the family income. You will know he has decided to take responsibility for the drinking when he tells you that he has made arrangements to get help.

Until that day, he has not 'reverted' to type; the person right now in front of your eyes is the person he has been all this time -- he has not changed in any significant way.

WRT 'anger triggered by the DCs' -- this is an enormous personality and ego problem and he needs to commit himself 100% to getting to the root of it with intense therapy, and commit to getting over himself.

It doesn't really matter exactly how many beers he drinks in a night. You and he both seem to be engaged in a process of finding out how much (little?) he has to do in order to make things liveable, where you get a modicum of non-drunkenness and he gets to keep up a certain level of alcohol poisoning (like topping up your minutes on a phone in a way).

how will I know he has/hasn't changed if he doesn't live here?
For yourself, having your own home to yourself would enable you to sample life as a free woman. You would notice the difference between life with an alcoholic and life free of that very quickly and very clearly.
You will find out if he is interested in changing or if he just wants to rearrange the deckchairs if you insist on him leaving. Right now you are both engaging in the deckchair rearranging. For both of you this is easier than doing what is necessary.

PlopButNOPudding · 08/09/2012 06:12

A question for you - how will I know he has/hasn't changed if he doesn't live here?

If he changes into the husband and father you want him to be then he will be working very hard to convince you to take him back. Because he will be terrified of losing a wonderful wife and dc who he loves.

He will be mortified that his alcoholism has affected his family so negatively and he'll tell you this. He'll also tell you that he's joined AA or some other addiction program and that he has stopped drinking completely and is working with professionals to keep it that way.

He'll tell you that his attitude and behaviour towards you and the dc has been selfish and appalling. He'll admit that he's controlling and disrespectful and has been a lousy husband and father and that neither you or the dc are to blame - only his own shortcomings. He will apologise and tell you exactly what his behaviour will be like from now on and how he will manage his anger, controlling tendencies etc in the future.

He'll show you he's changed by allowing you space and when you are ready to talk about your relationship again he will speak to you kindly, affectionately and with respect. He will demonstrate that he has patience and is loving with the dc and will carry out equal parenting tasks as you without being asked, without complaining, without asking for gratitude or making you feel guilty.

I'm afraid that if you have no idea whether he has changed or not, then it means hasn't.

PlopButNOPudding · 08/09/2012 06:17

I was also confused by objects not behaving as they should
Do you mean he would get angry with a toaster that won't pop up the toast for example? And throw it across the room or have a tantrum and stamp feet and shout at it??
This is an anger management problem- and something quite irrational that needs treatment to be resolved.

mathanxiety · 08/09/2012 06:17

Yes to all the above there will be no excuses (along the lines of 'the DCs set me off') and there will be a clear choice made by him he will choose family over drinking (he will make himself accountable to some other party and to you about the drinking -- no macho 'going it alone' BS).

He is not doing that now.

zxcv123 · 08/09/2012 09:53

I think it is really telling that you say "most of his anger is triggered by DC and objects not behaving as they should". Think about it. Could we insert the word "other" into that sentence?

"Most of his anger is triggered by DC and other objects not behaving as they should"

We would all raise our eyebrows to think of your DCs as objects, but perhaps that's the issue? Perhaps he views your DCs (and indeed you) as objects that should behave in a particular way? I can assure you that if he gets cross with them now for not behaving in a way that he deems appropriate, that will only get worse as they get bigger / noisier / have more possessions strewn round the house / have their own opinions / answer back etc.

Another question. Why was he at the pub last night when he knows that his drinking is a major problem for you, when he has promised you he will give up / won't let you down etc, when you are both in counselling for your marital difficulties. If there were ever a time when he should be spending time with you and the DCs rather than in the pub, this is it.

Bossybritches22 · 08/09/2012 12:21

Lala

Let me put this another way. Most, if not all, alcoholics- and yes I'm sorry your DH is one- will NEVER address their issues until they hit rock bottom and then the only way is up. Some then have a wake up call and get help and turn their lives around. Some carry on with the self destruction .

By letting him carry on with the charade of a happy family life you are in fact ENABLING him to carry on his self delusion that it is all OK.

I know it is the hardest thing in the world to do but by leaving him and making him face his demons you may well save his life as well as getting you and the DC's into a healthier more positive environment.

PLEASE start the process, live up to your thread title....start Moving Forth!

LurkingAndLearningLovesOrange · 08/09/2012 12:29

Lala if you want your husband to address his alcoholism (and it seems you do)

Enabling him the way you are now? He'll never get off the bottle. Ever.

If you truly want him to stop drinking, you need to kick him out and allow him to hit rock bottom. Only then, and I mean only then is there a chance he'll address his drinking issues.

Lagartijadoesthecrazyshake · 08/09/2012 21:28

Read this on another thread (DH in DD's cot) and it made me think a lot about you and your H:

^The Merry-Go-Round of DENIAL

Alcoholism is a tragic three act play in which there is at least two characters, the drinker and his family; friends; co-workers and even healthcare workers may have a part in keeping the Merry-Go-Round turning.

ACT ONE

The play opens with the alcoholic stating that no one can tell him/her what to do. This makes it very difficult for the family to talk about drinking and its results. Even when the drinking is obviously causing serious problems, he/she simply will not discuss it. Talking is like a one-way street.

The key word in alcoholism is Denial, for again and again people do what they say they will not or deny what they have done.

As the alcoholic drinks more and more, the helpers deny the problem and increase the alcoholic?s dependency.

In act one, the alcoholic kills all his/her pain and woes by getting drunk.

ACT TWO

In act two, the alcoholic does nothing but wait for and expect others to do for them. Distinct characters begin to evolve from his/her helpers. A person can play more than one character and usually does.

The Enabler
The Enabler is a helpful type, trying to rescue his friend from their predicament. The Enabler wants to save the alcoholic from the immediate crisis and relieve them of the unbearable tension created by the situation.
In reality, this person is meeting a need of their own, rather than that of the alcoholic, although the Enabler does not realize this themselves.

The Enabler denies the alcoholic the process of learning by correcting and taking responsibility for his/her own mistakes.

The Enabler may eventually insist they will never again rescue the alcoholic. They always have and the alcoholic believes they always will.

The Victim

This may be the boss, the employer, the foreman or supervisor. The Victim is the person who is responsible for getting the work done, if the alcoholic is absent due to drinking or is half on and half off the job due to a hangover.

The alcoholic becomes completely dependent on this repeated protection and cover-up by the Victim; otherwise he/his could not continue drinking in this fashion. If the Victim stops helping, the alcoholic will be compelled to give up drinking or give up the job.

It is the Victim who enables the alcoholic to continue his irresponsible drinking without losing his/her job.

The Provoker

This is usually the wife or mother and is a key person in the play.

She is a veteran at this role and has played it much longer than others. She is the Provoker. She is hurt and upset by repeated drinking episodes; but she holds the family together despite all the trouble caused by drinking.
In turn, she feeds back in the relationship her bitterness, resentment, fear and hurt, and so becomes the source of provocation.

She controls, she tries to force the changes she wants; she sacrifices, adjusts, never gives up, never gives in, but never forgets.

The attitude of the alcoholic is that his/her failure should be acceptable, but she must never fail the alcoholic! He/she acts with complete independence and insists he/she will do as they please.
This character might also be called the Adjuster. She is constantly adjusting to the crises and trouble caused by drinking.

Act two is now played out in full. Everything is done for the alcoholic and not by them. The results, effects and problems caused by drinking, have been removed by others. The painful results of the drinking were suffered by persons other than the drinker. This permits him/her to continue drinking as a way to solve his/her problems.

ACT THREE

Act three begins much like act one. The need to deny dependence is now greater for the alcoholic and must be expressed almost at once, and even more emphatically. The alcoholic denies he/she has a drinking problem, denies he/she is an alcoholic, denies that alcohol is causing him/her trouble. The alcoholic refuses to acknowledge that anyone helped them ? more denial. He/she denies that they may lose their job and insists that he/she is the best or most skilled person at his/her job. Above all, the alcoholic denies he/she has caused his/her family any trouble. In fact, the alcoholic blames the family, especially the spouse/parent, for all the fuss, nagging and problems.

Some alcoholics achieve the same denial by a stony silence, refusing to discuss anything related to their drinking. The memory is too painful.

The real problem is that the alcoholic is well aware of the truth which he/she so strongly denies. He/she is aware of the drunkenness and the failure. His/her guilt and remorse have become unbearable and the alcoholic cannot tolerate criticism or advice from others.

Above all, the memory of his/her utter helplessness and failure is more than embarrassing; it is far too painful for a person who thinks and acts as if he/she were a little god in their own world.

The wheel goes round and round.

The curtain never closes after act three, but instead the acts run over and over again. As years go by the actors get older, but there is little change in the words or the action of the play.

It is not true that an alcoholic cannot be helped until he wants help. It is true that there is almost no chance that the alcoholic will stop drinking as along as other people remove all the painful consequences for him/her. The other actors find it difficult to change. It is much easier and far less painful for them to say that the alcoholic cannot be helped, than to go through the agony of learning to play a new role.

Self-creating crisis

If drinking continues long enough, the alcoholic creates a crisis, gets into trouble, and ends up in a mess. This can happen in many ways, but the pattern is always the same: he/she is a dependent who behaves as if he/she were independent, and drinking makes it easy to convince himself/herself this is true. Yet the results of his drinking make him ever more dependent upon others.

When his/her self-created crisis strikes, he waits for something to happen, ignores it, walks away from it, or cries for someone to get him/her out of it. Alcohol, which at first gave him/her a sense of success and independence, has now stripped him/her of their mask and reveals a helpless, dependent child.

The crisis is a way of reassuring the alcoholic that they have control over the other players in the play.

The Little God

No one has a right to play God and demand that the alcoholic stop drinking. The reverse is also true. The alcoholic can only continue to act like a little god, telling everyone what to do, while doing as he/she pleases, if a supporting cast continues to play their roles. Every player has every right and responsibility to refuse to act as if the alcoholic in their lives were God whose every wish and commandment be obeyed.

Ending the play

There is no easy way to stop the merry-go-round, for it can be more painful to stop it than to keep it going. It is impossible to spell out definite rules which apply to all members of the play. Each case is different, but the framework of the play remains the same.

The 3cs re alcoholism
You did not cause this
You cannot control this
You cannot cure this^

LurkingAndLearningLovesOrange · 09/09/2012 05:45

I actually just came to link that thread!

Lala if you want to read the whole thread (and I think you should, here is the link:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/1559216-just-found-DH-in-DDs-cot

Lagar has summarised the most powerful points but I still feel you should read. She sounds just like you.

LalaDipsey · 09/09/2012 11:21

She does sound just like me. I have almost posted to her but there's no point from where I am.
The sad thing is I want to post that I understand - but leave him now before something worse happens
I never never never never thought I would stay with a man who shook our baby son and said 'shut the fuck up you little fuckwit' and then, when I told him to put him down and walk away, came at me with an upraised fist and said 'it's all your fault for being a nagging fucking bitch'
But I am still here. Because 'he's not being like that at the moment' and 'he's being nice and helpful'.
And he wonders why I can't just 'move on' because 'he's changed and would never behave like that again' Sad

OP posts:
Bossybritches22 · 09/09/2012 13:16

So why ARE you still there Lala?

What is it in you that still harbours a hope he can change??

Even IF he has changed.

Even IF he doesn't touch another drop of alcohol EVER again.

Even IF he is the model husband for weeks.

I could NEVER rest knowing he'd been so vile to his child and to me, he has a long way to go to earn your trust again, but staying with him while he trys to do so is madness.

Leave him, tell him to get help and allow contact with the DC;s only at a contact centre where he can be supervised and encouraged to play with the children in a supportive environment and learn how to be a better Dad.

You owe it to yourself and your lovely DC's.

LalaDipsey · 09/09/2012 15:07

I don't know, Bossy, when that incident happened the DTs were 2.5 months old, I was on about 2-3 hours broken sleep a night and my parents were on holiday. I had never thought of splitting and had made no enquiries - I didn't know how or where we would live without him.
I honestly 100% know that if that happened now it would be over - I have seen 2 solicitors & know my rights and have spoken to the CAB. I know how we would live.
There is another alcohol thread running where the H sounds just like mine. They do it because they can don't they?
I'm not ending it now because he really does seem to have changed and I'm waiting to see if that changes things for me but I doubt I can move past that night.
I was hoping counselling would unlock whatever it is in me stopping ending it. Part of me hoped the alcohol counsellor and Relate would call SS and force my hand. A big part of me wanted him to hit me that night so I would end it.
As math has pointed out so many times I am looking for 'permission' or 'help' to end it. I don't know why.
Everything I read says an alcoholic can't do a couple of beers. He thinks he can. I don't. He is trying to prove he can be 'all I want him to be' and has his anger under control now, is helping with the dc. Means he could have done that all along.
Maybe in a masochistic martyr way I like the way things are. Maybe I'm fucked in the head.

OP posts:
Lagartijadoesthecrazyshake · 09/09/2012 15:47

You're not fucked in the head. You've come so so far. You understand now it has to end, you just need to do it. You've lived like this a long long time (most of your adult life?) it's a hard hard thing to do. But you must.
You can do it Lala. You can.

LalaDipsey · 09/09/2012 16:00

For 19 years. Been with him for 19 years. Great and wonderfully at first but I wonder how much because I was 19 and happy to get pissed all the time?

OP posts:
LalaDipsey · 09/09/2012 17:12

I've identified the feeling I've been having. It hit me when H just left for the pub Hmm (fed dc dinner so I think he thinks it's his 'reward') and he said 'I shouldn't be back much later than 7-7.30'.
The feeling I got was 'don't rock the boat. He's being nice at the moment. Don't set him off. Don't ruin the status quo'

He can down a fair few pints in that time. Plus what does 'not much later than..' actually mean?
It does mean bedtime down to me on my own again.

OP posts:
MushroomSoup · 09/09/2012 18:22

It's all just so not how decent men with a young family behave, Lala.

MrsTomHardy · 09/09/2012 18:32

Just end it, now!
He will never be what you want him to be, ever!!!

NoWayNoHow · 09/09/2012 20:18

I can't tell you know wonderful it is to see you develop this self-awareness lala - you're become strong enough to see the situation for what it actually is, not what your H has made it to be over these many many years.

You see what he's doing, and you can understand his motivations.

You have also recognised tonight that you're paralysed by the fear of him turning again into what he's been.

He WILL (intentionally or unintentionally) use this fear to continue his trips to the pub and continue his drinking. He lives with you, so he will be able to tell that you're grateful for the even keel in your house at the moment. He will exploit this.

I know that you know that this is no way to live.

You have found SO MUCH strength in the last few months. You just need to really dig deep and tap into those reserves and pull out something you never knew you had to finish this last step. Your life will be happier, healthier, and quite frankly far less emotionally exhausting without him in your house.

We're all rooting for you.

mathanxiety · 09/09/2012 20:56

'The feeling I got was 'don't rock the boat. He's being nice at the moment. Don't set him off. Don't ruin the status quo''

That feeling means you are living with a sense of dread, and fear.
You are putting your needs second (third? fourth?) -- in fact, he has got you to the place where you know your needs boil down to not setting him off, and nothing more.
When you live in the state of constant vigilance that that necessity requires, it means he is in control of this relationship and you are being controlled.

Yes, he does it because he can. This is no reflection on you. It speaks volumes about him. However, the only way to ensure he can't is to separate yourselves physically.

You are not 'fucked in the head' except insofar as he has you like a deer in the headlights right now. He has you in that paralysed condition because that is what a constant diet of belittlement, blame, and emotional and psychological abuse (with a sprinkling of the physical, and in any case that threat is always there) will do to you. If someone fed you doughnuts three times a day and you had no exercise and nothing else to eat you would be sick and obese. Emotionally and psychologically, you need help -- you have been fed a very nutritionally empty emotional diet for a long time. Here is an article on Complex Post Traumatic Stress Disorder that you might find interesting.

I feel sure that if you were to get the help you need to get him out, get your own feet planted on the ground and live with the babies on your own (maybe with assistance from a night nurse, etc) you would do fine. But you have to ask for that specific help to support you in telling him to leave and to support you afterwards both physically and emotionally or others will not know what to do for you.

Telling him he has to leave could be done in an intervention style setting with your parents and maybe his sister there to stare him down. Being there for you afterwards could be a role for your parents, or they could advocate for you with services like a night nurse, home help, or help you through the legal aspect of it all.

Aussiebean · 10/09/2012 09:14

Just because he is now helping with the DCs does not mean you can't still end it.

You can end it because you have moved on. You have grown in differenrt directions. Or you have fallen out of love. There are many reasons to end a marriage.

Don't not end it, just because he is finally acting a little likea father. He can act a little like a father from his own house.

AbigailAdams · 10/09/2012 09:27

Seriously Lala, the fact that he considers it OK to go to the pub at the time when you have to put 3 young children to bed, is so far from OK, it is off the scale. And that is not even including the implications of the drinking.

And the whole don't rock the boat thing is desperately sad.

Please start putting yourself and your children first. Everything you are doing at the moment is still putting him and his abusive wants first.

Bossybritches22 · 10/09/2012 10:28

I agree with math get his family onside to do an intervention style approach. He HAS to leave for you to have any clarity for the future.

It may not mean it's all over, it may give him the shock he needs to start seeking help & MAYBE just maybe you will be able to rebuild your lives either co-parenting the babes seperately or slowly rebuilding your marriage.

NOTHING is going to be put right by continuing as you are Lala it will spiral downwards until something awful happens. It is an unhealthy environment for you and the children, they have no choice in how their life is at the moment but YOU have, so please make a healthy choice for them as well as you.

SecrectFarleysNibbler · 10/09/2012 17:31

Going to the pub after all that has gone is a slap in the face - all he has done is change his venue for drinking. Now you have no idea of how much he is drinking while he is there - in fact he could escalate to binge drinking if he only goes for a short while. So what if he has started to 'do a bit'? ( emphasis on the bit ), he has still not taken your requests, needs and wants seriously by stopping the drinking has he? He has thrown you a bone to pull you back on to HIS track. Lala - you know what really needs to happen but your addiction ( to him ans this realtionship) is as strong as his and until you are willing to accept it for what it is I don't believe you will ever leave this situation. I predict that the next thing to happen will be you giving up counselling because you think it's all good again so what's the point?

LalaDipsey · 10/09/2012 22:25

No no no Secret it's not all good again. I haven't said that and I'm not stopping counselling . Can't post long reply as dc finally asleep, house tidied and need to sleeeeep but I know things aren't ok. Going to the pub not ok.
I found counselling hard today. Said to him that he clearly wasn't going to change/stop doing whatever he wanted which left it to me to decide what I wanted to live like. Thy I wasn't angry, cross or disappointed he went to the pub cos no big surprise and it was slippage - 3.5hrs is a long time at the pub. And over the most stressful part of the day for me. He tried to make it my fault that he went but I can see through that now.

OP posts:
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