Rumours at DH's work

[Ormiriathomimus]

He is one of the few men working in this school. Last year rumour started that he was having an affair with one of his assistants. Nasty particularly because her H is an abusive twat and if he got to hear these rumours the consequences could be pretty bad. Rumour was quashed by HT would sent strongly worded memo about spreading malicious rumours.

Anyway it has started again. Assistant in question is in the process of trying to end her marriage and is in a very difficult position.

But right now, I am more concerned about me. Selfish I know but I am recovering from depression and still a bit unstable. I know he isn't unfaithful. I know they are just stupid rumours. But it hurts to think that so many people (some of whom I know socially) might beleive these rumours and in fact be spreading them. It makes me feel undesirable and ugly, middle-aged and stupid, a sap who is being take for a ride.

I can't tell you how upset it has made me feel. It had made me angry with DH for being the sort of man he is - the sort of person who gets close to other and shows that he cares about them, and lays himself open to rumours.

Can anyone understand me?

I texted DH yesterday about the OW's husband. I asked if he cared that he was putting the children and I at risk by getting involved with the wife of such an abusive man. He replied 'You wouldn't gave been harmed'. I asked why, if he really loved her, he was putting her at risk from her abusive husband. 'Don't know'. I haven't spoken to him much since then - both of us have been out. Had a long call to my friend. She is going to arrange to see him today.

I can't cope with him stonewalling me any more. I cannot talk to him about it anymore because all my efforts to find out the things I need to know are being pushed away. He changes the subject, tries to make a joke, tells me he loves me. He is being loving and gentle - the perfect husband - and I am so sad I can't accept it in the spirit it is intended, but I can't. Because he's building a beautiful garden on top of an active volcano. Until he lets me see what went on - until her revisits it - I can't move on.

I'd tell him that as well, Orm.

Unless your husband is a very stupid man, Orm, I don't think for a minute that he believed the 'lies' even if he had been told them. The thing is, you will never really know:

a) The lies she told him
b) The lies he actually 'heard'
c) The interpretation he put on what he 'heard'
d) Whether he embellished or just 'misinterpreted'
e) Whether he was lied to at all or whether he just needed something to 'anchor' his reasons for this on.
f) Whether there was tacit understanding and agreement, from them both, to deceive you by bolstering up the lies to make them 'palatable' to you.

I believe that now, more than ever, he will not tell you the truth. The more you have confirmed, the more you can use this as a stick to beat him with (not saying that you would, but this is how he might feel). The less he says, the better, from his viewpoint - knowledge is a bad thing from his standpoint as firstly, you might take action and he will have no way of knowing whether you would or wouldn't 'kick off' from one of his revelations and secondly, he has no control over the fallout - all the balls are in your court.

If you were in his shoes, AS HIM, not you - how would you be feeling? If you can use your knowledge of him to look at that, you might get a bit nearer to what is actually going on in his head.

I just wanted to make a point about what somebody said further up the thread about "letting somebody go to whom they profess to love as a first instinct". I don't believe that anybody would be that 'altruistic' and I think it's not at all accurate. Surely the first emotions of shock, denial and overwhelming sadness would negate that? Makes me a little bit wary of people's 'needs' to provide you with textbook answers and analysis here... they can't.

You sound angrier though now, Orm, and I think that's ultimately very good for you to enable you to process what has happened. I've thought of you often and am sending positive wishes to you.

I agree with everything you said lying. But here's the rub - if he can't tell me, can't revisit, can't be honest, we are finished. That is his choice. And yes, the balls will all be in my court, just as they were in his court when he was in the throes of his affair and I was in total ignorance. tough!

Re your last comment about altruism and love - I did think that, my first thought was 'oh he will have to go to her then' - only fleetingly but it was there. I don't know if it was just my love for him being strong, or whether there was some self-protection going on too - i don't want you if you want someone else. Probably.

Oh and how is he feeling? He's desperate. I can see if from the tone of his texts and the way he is abasing himself utterly. I hate myself for doing this to him. I hate myself! But I can't help it. I am not in control of my feelings.

"I am so sad I can't accept it in the spirit it is intended"

I think you are accepting it in the spirit it is intended (arse covering and distraction) and that is why it is not enough.

If he's that desperate and scared he will stop stonewalling you.

There's no "can't" here - he is choosing to keep the details of his affair private.

At this point that is more important to him than how you are feeling.

Some Sir Galahad, huh?

It's not arse-covering, it's a genuine attempt to make me happy and get our marriage off on a good footing. But it won't work.

And the other thing is I don't actually know exactly what I want to know. Does that make sense?

Orm, I think you're doing great and in the last few days I've been really encouraged by the questions you are asking yourself and him. You have hit the nail on the head when you say that if he can't open up to you and revisit it all, then it's over. You shouldn't hate yourself for making him face these things. After all, he chose to do it in the first place. All the nice behaviour and the cups of tea won't mean anything until and unless he gives you the truth and truly starts to accept that he was just another weak man having an affair. For as long as he maintains these fantasies of being somehow seduced or emotionally drawn in by a vulnerable woman, he is lying to himself and you.

It will now be clear to you from his "I don't know" response that you are starting to blow his cover story. Of course he doesn't have an answer to give you as to why he would put her in harm's way because the only answer is that "She wasn't really in that much danger, I just allowed myself to get close to her and then I fancied her". While you will hate him for admitting that, you will at least start to feel that he is taking responsibility for what he has done. It is hard for a cheating man to admit to his wife that he physically fancied another woman in a way that he doesn't see his wife - far easier to claim it was a noble romance. The great irony of course is that many women see it the other way round and what he doesn't realise is that if he just confessed to the sex and admitted it wasn't true love in the proper enduring sense of the word, you would actually find it a little easier!

Good people do shit things Orm, but if they can own up to them there is a way forward.

PS Note to Stern - I think your advice is fantastic. I tend to get drawn into these things emotionally but you maintain a serene and wise objectivity that is very rare.

I don't feel like I'm doing great. i feel like I am destroying everything. How can I get answers if I don't even know what answers I want?

You are absolutely not destroying everything, Orm, I promise you, you're doing brilliantly. There is no other option. It may seem like there's another path you could travel where you both forget as much as possible what's happened and focus on the future and a new relationship born out of renewed respect and honestly - but that NEVER HAPPENS. It's not your fault. It's impossible.

The biggest error with major infidelity is pursuing that sort of course and not dealing with it properly, it leads only to a sense of entitlement on one side and simmering resentment on the other. Years are wasted that way in misery. You are doing all that it is possible to do to save your marriage. This is part of it. saying to him, 'What sort of a man could do this? What sort of a man are you?' is the most important thing in the world that could be said to him now as it's the question he must answer. Of course it is much easier to not answer those questions, or even ask them, it pains us to admit to failings and its against out nature to focus on the things we've done that reflect badly but it is the only route to real change.

Keep going. This is not destroying the good work, It is part of it.

"I cannot talk to him about it anymore because all my efforts to find out the things I need to know are being pushed away. He changes the subject, tries to make a joke, tells me he loves me."

You believe that is "a genuine attempt to make me happy and get our marriage off on a good footing"?

Really?

No. Honest communications are almost non-existent - he is hiding from the fact that things aren't right because he is scared of the consequences. But his actions are those of a loving husband.

He is playing the part of a loving husband I mean. He just doesn't know, or accept. what I need him to do.

It's a genuine attempt to not be given a hard time, is what it is. Understandable, of course, but that doesn't mean he should get away with it.

I'd never buy that "I didn't tell you because I didn't want to hurt you" stuff. No, you didn't tell me because you didn't want ME to hurt YOU (and didn't give me enough credit to realise I wouldn't have). It's the lack of honesty that really stings, at least partly because it's lack of honesty that got you where you are in the first place.

He's off to see the counsellor friend this afternoon. I rang her last night in floods of tears and told her how angry and frustrated I was and this was make or break time. He's seeing her at 3pm. And if we both want to even be in the same room after that, we are both going to see her this evening.

One good thing is that I am no longer angry with OW. I realised it was a tactic to avoid me throwing it all at him because I still love the stupuid bugger.

Orm it's not going to surprise you when I tell you that the main reason for people to evade and obfuscate like this is because they are still telling lies.

I think that's why you don't know what questions to ask. You know he won't budge on the big stuff, at some level you don't believe what he's told you and so all the peripheral questions seem a bit pointless.

I think until you can get the truth about when this really started and what happened between them, you will feel like this.

I'm assuming he's on holiday now from school and so there's plenty of time and opportunity to discuss things now. It might be worth seeing if you can take a day off work so that you can sit down in the daytime when neither of you are tired and waiting for teenagers to finally go to bed before you can talk. It might take a bit of arranging to have the kids elsewhere, but I'd recommend it. You might also find it helpful to write everything down somewhere before you do that, because then I think the questions that need answering will leap off the page for you.

Incidentally, the reason I asked you whether you'd wondered whether to let him go was because this is a common reaction in a shocked partner and I thought it was worth checking out with you whether you'd felt it too. It might seem a surprising reaction to some posters, but it's normal and it happens a lot.

I think his responses to the questions you asked indicate that he didn't think her husband was as bad as they were both painting him. But tempting as it is to ask these questions by text when they pop into your head, I think you need to ask them face-to-face so that there is no hiding place or time to prepare a response.

I am beginning to see why some of you were getting so frustrated with me earlier on All I can say is thanks for sticking with me and being so patient.

Orm, you're just going through a process and it's so heartening and exciting to see you coming through it. It's brilliant you're refocusing your rage and demands and it shows you to be a very bright and deserving partner who isn't going to get stuck in lies. You are, in effect, sobering up from shock. When we suffer a terrible event it is out natural response to cling to those who love us most, parents or partners or whatever and it takes a while to realise that source of comfort is actually the source of the trauma too.

I would echo stern though that with important questions it is far better to do it face to face, even if you have to bring them written down. It is notoriously much easier to lie in print than in person and, crucially, far harder to sense deception too.

good luck. Strangely, I am very excited for you.

Ormiriathomimus Thu 26-Jul-12 12:05:16

He is playing the part of a loving husband I mean. He just doesn't know, or accept. what I need him to do.

I think this is important that you realised he is doing/saying what you want to hear.

If he was being totally honest with you then he wouldn't be behaving like this.

Orm I haven't said much on here for a while, others are doing a fabulous job and obviously know what they are talking about!

Just wanted to say that I am still keeping up with the thread and wishing you well.

How about these. Just a cheat sheet for me to use when I am talking to him:

1, When did it start. When did you start getting too close. When did you kiss. When did you say you loved her.

1. Was I being entirely paranoid last year when I felt sidelined by some of your colleagues at your BBQ? And shut out at other times. I felt very uncomfortable about the wedding ? was I completely wrong? What happened when you went back to the party when I went home to check on the kids? Did you pretend that they didn?t answer the phone so I went home and left you with a free hand?
2. How much was T affecting our relationship and our family? I have a feeling she was doing so a lot before Jan when you said it started to be serious? She was giving you an alternative to home and I think it was a lot more appealing than the reality.
3. Did you really care that I was depressed? Or was I just a nuisance? Please be honest? If you hadn?t been blinded by T would you not have noticed how much of a bad way I was in?
4. Was this relationship quite as pure as you are making it out? Were you just protecting her from her life or was there something more basic? Did you fancy her? Was it that she was younger than me and more exciting? Assuming you didn?t sleep with her, did you want to?
5. Did you talk to her about me and our marriage? Honesty please? Considering she talked to you about hers it seems unlikely you didn?t reciprocate. Did you tell her I was cold, depressed, pushed you away and that the kids were a pita who didn?t respect you? Any or all of those? Anythnig else you told her?
6. Do you think she spread those rumours?
7. Why did you risk family?s emotional and physical safety having a relationship with the wife of such a jealous controlling man? Who only live a mile away from us. I know you said he wasn?t a risk to us but how did you know?
8. Why did you risk him hitting out at her if you loved her so much?

10. Was he in fact really so abusive? Was she spinning you a line? Was she exaggerating a little? Or were you exagerating to justify your actions to yourself and me? 11. When she ended it because ?she couldn?t have all of you? do you think it was a manipulation to make you leave me. Hence the further texts? And was there a chance you might have given in and left me. Was your desire to leave me the following Sunday/Monday actually because of what she had said/done? Do you think she might have miraculously found the strengh to leave her marriage if you have been free? 12. What would have happened if I hadn?t found the texts? THINK about it? Be honest? 13. Do you really want me? Do you have the strength to fight for me and our marriage? Because it won?t be the old marriage any more. It will be a new one and we will both have to work hard to make it. You will need to prove to me again and again that you want to be here and you are glad you ended it with her. If you can do this I will do my damndest to forgive and move on and you know how hard I work when I am committed to something If your regain my trust and respect our new marriage will be something worth celebrating.

14. Are you willing to give more or yourself to the children? Less shouting and impatience. And in return I will back you up more when you are being strict with them.

Not to leave out 15. What kind of man does this? How does this change your own view of yourself?

Oh Orm :( If he can answer those honestly then I think it will be a good thing. But I think you are going to hvae to set yourself up for some heartbreak. I also notice you don't ask the obvious question.
Re Q15 - I'd keep this about you. Tell him this has changed your image of him (presumably as a dependable family man) and what does he think he can do to get back there again?

These are all good questions. Once you start you should just let the conversation flow as his answers will likely lead to more questions and you don't want to miss the opportunity to follow up before he has a chance to construct any more lies around it. You don't need to ask every question.

I wouldn't give him the get out of jail free card by saying "Assuming you didn't sleep with her, did you want to". If he has half a brain cell he will say "You're right I didn't, but yes I wanted too". If he has no respect for your intelligence he will say "I didn't and I didn't want to".

Personally I would say "Do you seriously expect me to believe that your relationship stopped at kissing? I don't need or want graphic details but I need you to show me that you are serious about this by telling me how far you took it. I know the answer but I need to hear the words from your mouth. This is your one opportunity to come clean."

I completely agree with the suggestion that you put these questions to him face to face with no one else around. It will be a difficult session full of tears but it will be worth it. At the moment, you are both treading water.