Dumped by EA partner again

[isthistheendthistime]

I have previously been in two abusive relationships. Since the second, I've read Why Does He Do That? and the Freedom Programme materials.

I've been going out with someone else since last November. I've been friends with him for 5.5 years, so I knew he had sulky/PA tendencies. I've always liked him though and thought that he might actually be redeemable (unlike the previous two).

I made it clear that I wouldn't move in with him until I was happy with his behaviour (we're currently 200 miles away from each other but I'm moving closer soon for other reasons).

He admitted being EA months ago but has not put any real effort into fixing it till very recently, when he finally read the Lundy Bancroft book. He also read these materials: shouldistayorshouldigo.net/bonusmaterials.html and agreed to make an action plan.

We agreed to a sort of break where we wouldn't have sex/be a proper couple, but would stay exclusive and be affectionate while he worked on things.

Last time he visited he was clearly EA in front of my daughter (looking back there may have been other lesser incidents I didn't notice at the time) which was a big thing for me as previously I thought it was confined to online. Very worried about it affecting her as she grows up as she already has an abusive father, one is more than enough!

So I have been seeing it in a much more serious light and been more willing to criticise him and stand my ground when calling him on things since then (online, he hasn't been back here since).

He has dumped me four times before, changing his mind the next day. In anger, as a punishment for me not agreeing, not backing down, criticising him etc. Blaming it on us 'not being compatible' - code for it being my fault - I have Aspergers so am unusual in the way I interact sometimes (he expects a lot of verbal affection to reassure himself, this doesn't come naturally to me, although I am fine expressing physical affection), but he knew this from the start and has always seemingly accepted me as a friend.

He's started a new thing recently where he introduces a topic, then refuses to answer questions because he knows I won't like the answer. Although then he does tell me in the end so the refusing bit is an unnecessary additional frustration itself.

I'd just criticised the way he was talking about something as it could be interpreted as defensive and blaming me. This was something he'd agreed not to do in the plan. He always claims he isn't doing it when I point it out, although he agrees he does in general. So I don't know when these occasions are that he does actually do it, if each specific one is denied!

Anyway, to avoid this situation of denial I said that as I couldn't tell the difference between him doing it deliberately and a misinterpretation, maybe he should avoid using ambiguous language that could be interpreted that way. Which he agreed to. Therefore if he does it, he's in the wrong, whatever he claims was his motivation.

So I could tell he was already annoyed about me saying that he was doing it this time, and he kept doing it (and denying it) in response to my comments.

Then I asked for the final draft of his plan, he said he was reluctant to send it to me. I asked why, multiple times, he wouldn't answer (both by evasion and direct refusal). Then said "The plan has changed by a few words. You can have it, I was just reluctant, because you would rewrite it again. It's MY plan, that I can share with you."

As the plan materials say it's suitable for me to, I suggested additions to his plan when I saw the first draft. He was willing for me to do this at the time, and agreed the additions were necessary. Even his sister agreed about the alcohol-related one (she was staying with him so he mentioned it).

But now apparently he resents my input and didn't include the changes (except the alcohol stuff) discussed in the final draft anyway. And there isn't much point in having the plan if your partner is still telling you you're still behaving unacceptably in ways that aren't in it!

So I said that I felt he hadn't responded non-emotionally, and had broken other commitments in the plan, so we should enforce the penalty written into it which this time meant no contact for three days (he already had a two day ban Mon-Wed which he put in place and the way he did it felt quite controlling, like it was actually a punishment for me, especially as he blocked me on Facebook where we normally talk, which unfriends you automatically).

As soon as I said that, he said he was still here (one of the things I'd objected to was him ignoring me for 27 minutes although I'd typed to him in that time, which is a regular issue and he isn't supposed to just go away and stop talking in anger to punish me, only as a break, calmly discussed).

I said it still stood and I'd see him in three days, then logged off.

He then unfriended/blocked me on Facebook again, hid or deactivated his account (I can't see it in the search results any more), and sent me an email saying he doesn't want to talk to me again. I.e. it's over (again...).

Is there any way back from this if he changes his mind again? Have I done anything wrong in this? I mean I'm sure I haven't but you know how gaslighting makes you think you're crazy and unreasonable. I feel like I should post the entire conversation just to be fair to him so you aren't only getting one side, but it's too long.

I know everyone will just say it's a lost cause and I should give up on him. And if it was either of the last two people I'd be saying it myself. But I really thought this one could work.

I wanted him to agree to go to an abuse perpetrator's programme (as part of the external help bit of the plan), but he ignored that suggestion. Instead he wants to talk online to an ex of his (who is a counsellor). I don't have an issue with the ex bit per se, although I do wonder if she can be impartial if she sees issues coming up that they might have had too. But the counsellor bit makes me wary as I know this can enable them further. He said he'd make sure he was honest with her and she would call him on stuff (hmm).

If he does return, should I insist on some other form of outside help? And how long should I give him to improve before giving up? I don't want to set an arbitrary time limit but then I don't want to be in the same situation still being messed around in a year's time.

Sorry for extreme length!

I warn you of this OP, that it's entirely possible that your Ex is reading the book to learn how to get under your radar better. It does happen. A little knowledge is a dangerous thing. I smell tons of massive rats with this bloke, I don't believe him for a second.

"Otherwise I'd always be wondering whether or not he was still interested and if he had just given up or was waiting for me to go running after him"

TRUST ME, you don't WANT the guy that you know to still be interested in you. You don't EVER want to be running after him. You need to end this and end it categorically. he MUST agree to stay away from you, your friends and out of your life. He BLEW the chance of being your friend when he abused you.

The person you know is NOT acceptable in anyway shape or form. The bit that you loved was just smoke and mirrors, fake and only designed to hook you in, for you to mirror back what he wants to suck you dry of. He't not interested in giving, the only person in his world is HIMSELF. But he needs to be needed, worshipped and adored, so he presents this perfect mirage in the beginning, he even believes it himself to get what he wants deep down.

Your energy, kindness, light and warmth are what he feeds off, but he's addicted to that feed and needs more and more and more. In the beginning you satisfy his appetite for his ego, but eventually he needs more and more and you can't deliver it in the quantities he needs, so he has withdrawal symptoms, and he turns on you, he clamps down on you, controls you as as this is the only way to get any power from you, by stealing yours.

He does what he does deliberately, but not understanding why, he is compelled to destroy you and your happiness.

You have to assume that he will NOT change (as is the case in 99.99% of cases) but IF, by some miracle he beats ALL THOSE ODDS, the person he emerges as out the other side of this you may not recognise at all, you may not like, and he may not like you.

Write him off for now. Give up on him and invest the time and the love and care in YOURSELF.

CinnabarRed I did already mention a couple in passing. For example, when he doesn't like something I've said (not something inherently offensive, just that he disagrees with), he gets angry because I don't have the opinion he thinks I should, and stops talking to me. I don't mean just calmly saying he wants a break for a few minutes, but after talking angrily, stops talking with no warning (or occasionally a very terse goodbye, without the normal kisses) and ignores me for a while (usually till the next day). Those are the kind of occasions he dumped me the first four times.

Or he gets angry that my requests are unreasonable and he is normal so I must be wrong. Like I read in the Lundy Bancroft book that calling you e.g. 'love' instead of your name is a warning sign. And I already knew I didn't like being called it (regardless of why, and he does use my name usually). So I said I didn't like it, and he went on about how other people didn't mind and it was a perfectly normal thing to do and I felt like I must be being unfair and backed down. And even convinced myself he was right and it was a nice affectionate thing to say, but actually I still don't like it.

And he has insecure/jealous tendencies. Always wanted me to be as negative as possible about my previous ex (it's not hard to be negative about him, considering, but I do wish to be civil and not biased as we are still in contact about our daughter) and got angry/offended if there was ever an excuse to, about even sometimes neutral things I said. Or the way I'd chosen to carry out contact meetings, getting annoyed because it wasn't how he thought was the right way to do it, like I was too stupid to make a sensible decision myself.

Or getting upset if I was honest in response to a question, or mentioned something relevant in a conversation, but he didn't want to hear it. Like anything about previous relationships (even negative stuff if it e.g. involved sex). I don't mean just upset on my behalf, more that he was jealous that I'd had those experiences with someone else and wasn't just accepting of the past.

Or getting angry/upset when he burnt a pancake and complaining he couldn't do anything right, which turned out to be actually about other things earlier that day when he was struggling to find somewhere on a map when we were out, and he thought I'd given him a dirty look when he brought me some food, but not mentioned it at the time (I gave him a rueful look cos I crackled the packaging and woke my daughter up) etc, and saved all this stuff up and essentially blamed it on me being critical of him when I hadn't been (this was the one last time he visited, in front of my daughter).

And constantly needing reassurance, nice things saying to him, like the whole making his happiness depend on me thing. Although I don't know if this is justified to some extent because I'm not naturally verbally affectionate and don't often say I love him like most people might expect.

And another I'm not sure of because of my communication problems, is when I'm totally convinced there is a negative emotion/motivation behind what he's saying (like being defensive when I say I'm not happy with X behaviour, or a snide comment implying blame towards me for something, or something negative about himself that begs a reassuring answer etc), and he denies it. Although he agrees in general that he does do it sometimes, but every specific occasion I say I think it's happening, he denies it, so I wonder if I'm crazy for thinking he's feeling that way. That's what led to the suggestion of him not using language that could be interpreted that way, so I couldn't possibly think he was doing it.

These things were all improving over the last three weeks though, he was filtering his responses much better. But I understand now that it wouldn't be a full/permanent fix while we were still involved.

TheHappyHissy I just meant I'd rather have the opportunity to let him know where I stand, so I don't have it in the back of my mind that one day he might contact me again, or that he's still thinking I might contact him. Not that I will say anything unless he does first. I'm not wavering, I don't need more convincing.

I understand that if he does stop being abusive he may well change in other ways too, but I certainly wouldn't write it off because of that. He's still had all the same experiences and has all the same knowledge and intelligence etc. He can still hold conversations about the same topics. I mean, he's not suddenly going to be a horrible person, cos the whole point of stopping being abusive is that they end up nicer. I can't imagine how he could change that would make me automatically less interested, unless he changed the major philosophical stance that is central to both our lives, and as that's a complete opposite to abusiveness, it doesn't seem likely. What I mean is, he could completely change his character/actions and still be essentially the same person. So I'm not assuming he will be identical just without the abuse, I probably have a wide tolerance to that sort of change.

However, that's a moot point currently, I am willing to forget about it for now.

You have to assume that he will NOT change (as is the case in 99.99% of cases) but IF, by some miracle he beats ALL THOSE ODDS, the person he emerges as out the other side of this you may not recognise at all, you may not like, and he may not like you.

stuffitunderthebed Yes, probably Aspergers-related. I do tend to talk with the intellectual side of my brain. It doesn't mean I don't feel the same emotions as you, just that I don't express them as much/in the same way, and may not feel like I have to follow them like some people might.

Tbh, and again, going to get flamed, but I am not seeing this as EA.

He is clearly a sulky slight jealous PITA, but everyone can be like that sometimes. There are women on here that suffer from really nasty emotional abuse, name calling, gaslighting, lying, bullying etc.

And also, am I right in thinking that alot of this "abuse" happens via MSN type instant messaging so not actually face to face?

I really cant help thinking that you have read about abuse because of your ex and then applied it to every tiny little thing that this man does.

No one is perfect, this kind of thing does happen in even the happiest relatiosnhips. Especially the blow up about something unimportant when in fact the real issue is something else that the person doesnt want to talk about, is embarrassed about or actually hasnt realised is such a problem.

Dons flameproof suit.....

I know you say that you dont do counselling but you clearly have your own issues from your past and I think that trying to solve them yourself may actually be causing more problems.

With respect, youa re not an expert, you dont actually know what caused you to have abusive relationships. Until you do, you cant fix whatever that thing was.

I'm kind of with you, Bogeyface. Or, rather, I'd say that each instance described is open to interpretation.

I would probably walk away from someone talking in derogatory terms about something I hold dear; I still can't tell of we're talking fundamentals like religion or politics, or trivialities like what to watch on TV.

But then again, I wasn't there at the time.

One positive, OP, is that I'm utterly convinced that your 15m old DD won't have been harmed by her limited interactions with this man!

bogeyface OK, so are the things I think are gaslighting and lying actually miscomunications? And I feel like I have to be really careful about what I say all the time, but then am I imagining that and he isn't reacting badly after all? I didn't feel like it was sometimes. I mean, not constantly, but a lot. And in cycles, like it's supposed to happen.

I am willing to believe that it's all me if everyone thinks so, but that means I can never have a relationship then, as I genuinely feel abused, so must be completely unable to judge anything socially important. In some ways worse than with the previous partner (which is ridiculous considering how he was), because it's subtle and insidious, whereas the last guy was at least open about it mostly (although did gaslight as well).

Not sure what the relevance of it being online is, but yes. 83,000 messages-worth, roughly.

I know people get upset for invalid reasons sometimes, but I didn't know non-abusive people blamed it on their partners. How do you draw the line then? How do you decide when it's abuse and when it isn't, if everyone is allowed some level of it?

If it helps, our mutual friends all say he is known for being over-sensitive and sulky. So I'm not imagining the basic traits, even if I'm wrong about what conclusion I've drawn from it. He is also more likely to act that way when drunk, which is why the plan had something about alcohol in. He does misuse it according to the DVLA definition, and there is rife alcoholism in his family.

Well that's my lookout. Maybe I will stay single forever then. Shan't expose my daughter to any more abusive people, anyway, that should be clear if you think I'm over-reacting to this.

CinnabarRed It's all kinds of things. Trivial and important. Theoretical and practical. Once we were talking about how his family call each other whores etc (the women) and he said it was harmless. I talked about perpetuating stereotypes and other feminist stuff and he got angry about that and said I was always banging a drum (and then ignored me again). Whereas I am known for my ethics in our friendship group and he had previously said that was something he really admired in me, and usually encourages/agrees with me. Just not when it involves him (he also said he calls his cousin tart etc as a joke).

So does this actually mean that he isn't a bad person to go out with and I could be with him if I adjust my expectations then?

Let me start by saying that he sounds like a PITA, hard work and no, I dont think that you should go out with him! But not for the reasons you have cited. He is demanding and sulky and frankly, who can be arsed with that? But I wouldnt say he is abusive based on what you have posted here.

You said you would change your view if everyone thinks its down to you. Please dont misunderstand me. I am not saying that you should take responsibility for someone elses actions, but we are all responsible for how we react to them. He is an asshole, that doesnt mean he is abusive and it doesnt mean you should try to fix him. His problems are down to him and him alone.

But, that aside.......I think that you are so worried about getting into an abusive relationship again that you are maybe seeing abuse where there is just......someone being a bit of an arsehole.

THe reason I think that it being online is important is that it is soooo easy to misunderstand an intention when someone is writing rather than speaking. For example "I am really pissed off with you" reads like the person is pissed off with you. But someone saying it to your face, emphasising really, laughing and rolling their eyes means that they are joking with you and are not actually pissed off at all, but are being sarcastic. If he typed it one way, but you read it another way then that could be the reason for the misunderstandings when he said he hadnt meant what you thought it meant. No ones fault, just a downside of instant messaging, texting etc. Happens on MN all the time! Could that be something to do with your Aspergers? I am sorry, I have no experience of that so I dont know if it might be and sorry if I have offended.

This is why I really do think that speaking to a professional would be good for you. There are counsellors that will do online counselling, I sense that you are happier with that form of communication, so it may be worth looking into that.

Please please, dont think that i am blaming you for anything, I am just questioning whether your perception of what is actually abuse is skewed by your previous experience and your self help since then, in an attempt to avoid it again.

Great post bogeyface. I agree.

Sorry op, not doubting you or denying your feelings. But I can't see abuse in the situations you've mentioned.

bogeyface I can be arsed with it if he isn't going to damage my daughter. I don't mind putting up with the bad stuff if it means I get to be with him, it's just I thought it was bad for her, so I wasn't going to risk her having another bad relationship role model. But if he's within the normal range of non-abusive humanity surely that's fine?

Well I know he's angry because he stops talking to me. So it's not always possible for it to just be an interpretation of words thing. I'm not saying it couldn't be my miscommunication sometimes, but not to the huge extent that it normally happens. Especially as he agrees in general that he does do all the things I've mentioned, just never agrees when I point them out.

We did both agree that it was fine in real life normally, until the last visit. Oh, and actually when I stayed at his for 10 days, he was very tense then. But he was still blaming me for the way he acted last visit when we talked online about it later. Even though he said he shouldn't have acted like that.

I was actually willing to put up with the online stuff until I moved, as then it wouldn't happen any more. But then he started saying that he agreed he was abusive, and that he didn't want to be like his dad and would change.

I expect these online ones charge? I live on Income Support so don't have spare money. And it isn't just the method of communication but also the fact that they're a stranger.

Also I'm no better at communicating in real life as I don't interpret body language, tone etc well (that's an AS thing). So there's no reason for me that online would be worse (although he might misinterpret me that way, I wouldn't misinterpret him any more than normal)

I think the problem is that you might be confusing unacceptable behaviour with abuse. His going offline for a few minutes and leaving you dangling isnt acceptable, but it also isnt abuse.

But....from your most recent reply I am getting that there is more to this than abuse v not abuse.

He seems very uncomfortable with getting close to you, and that might be why he is acting out. You, having done your self help, are interpreting this as abusive. Do you think that perhaps he is admitting to abuse that he doesnt really believe in, to keep you at a distance that he is comfortable with?

It seems to me more and more that you are just wrong for each other. I dont mean to be cruel but the more you post about both of you, the more it seems that you just see the world totally differently.

There are many men out there that would adore you! They would appreciate the rules being laid out in black and white. Sadly, this man isnt one of them.

Yes I do think that they charge, but I am happy to try and find one who doesnt if it would help?

bogeyface It's not usually a few minutes. It's normally till the next day. And if he does talk again the same day it's only after I send an unrelated message, so he can respond to that without talking about the thing he's ignoring.

It would seem odd if he was afraid of being close, he certainly says he wants to be, both physically and emotionally. Especially as one of his issues was my lack of verbal affection online (although he's happy with it in person). And he wanted to move near me in the meantime while we were waiting for me to move there.

I do agree we're very different. I don't see that as an inherent problem. He did, till the last few weeks, and when he explained the change in his view I immediately felt much more accepted for who I was, and more secure.

As I've said, there aren't many men who fit my own criteria though. I don't think I'm particularly picky, it's just that there's one thing that I see as essential, and very few men who fall into that group. Then the normal preferences of non-smoker etc narrow it down further. I have spoken with AS men online before, that didn't go well, so I don't think I could find a kindred spirit there. And then I have to find someone who likes clear rules within that already tiny group? Seems unlikely.

I just wouldn't say anything to a counsellor. I would sit there and not talk. I can talk to my close friends because I don't have the social pressure of not knowing them (and I don't just mean the pressure of needing to get to know them, I know that doesn't matter with a counsellor). New people fill up my brain capacity so there isn't enough spare to converse properly. Plus online I can't guarantee being free any particular time as my daughter doesn't sleep reliably yet, so I'd have to randomly disappear sometimes to feed her back to sleep.

I wish HH would come back and say if she thinks he isn't abusive then, as I am now very confused.

Ok, you know what?

I think it would be better if I left this thread.

I am sorry for making things worse :(

Hiding this thread now.

I've re -read the op, and i will tell you what my therapist told me when i was struggling with the last guy i was seeing.

"It doesn't really matter if the actions of a person are abusive or not, if their actions are unacceptable to you, they are unacceptable. If you compromise on these things, you will communicate your acceptance, and so it will continue"

You and he aren't working. Its far too much like hard work.

I don't like the things you have described, not at all. He's not a healthy person to be with. Neither do i think, are you to be truthful.

I have to say that you are not in the right space for a relationship. I know because i remember feeling similar with the guy i was seeing.

(Had to call the police on him twice, refused to leave me alone, quite seriously fucked up as it goes)

Coming out of that i realised that i needn't fear abusers, that I 'd dealt with one, possibly two and can more than easily deal with any others that come along.

Your relationship needs to end, for both your sakes. It could be that your fears are convincing you that he's abusive, and your accusing him of such means over time he believes it.

I don't like the stuff he does, it is behaviour that is used in abuse, but i can't know for sure, I'm not happy to allow projection in this.

You NEED to do the proper Freedom Programme. You DO need to find proper therapy. You are not above asking for help. Contact WA for suggestions.

You will be stuck in this hellish land of fear forever until you actually seek out and accept real life help.

Isthis - I'm sorry you are going through this.

Several things:
Nobody really changes after a certain age
at "the plan", penalties etc in OP
Blocking you on FB and writing you a mail saying he doesn't want to see you again are good indicators that it's truly over

My advice:
Turn the page

bogeyface I didn't mean I didn't want your advice, just that there was a confusing unagreement between posters so it would help if others said what they thought to see if there was some kind of consensus. I never trust myself when there's a possibility I might be wrong about something social, as I always assume I'm wrong because I'm different.

So it helps if everyone agrees so I know for sure I'm being unreasonable. The last few weeks was the only time I've really been forceful about being right, because he agreed with me, so I didn't have that doubt at the time. But then I don't know if some of my doubt also stems from being constantly told I was wrong about everything by the previous ex, and really I am right after all. How does one separate the two kinds of doubt so you can tell which is justified?

TheHappyHissy I thought it wasn't really hard work in the last few weeks, except when I thought he was breaking the plan commitments and he disagreed. The actual amount of stuff to wade through had dropped dramatically.

I think that maybe he was behaving unacceptably previously, and then was serious about changing. But then because he'd introduced the plan/rules and admitted being wrong overall, I assumed that I was right about when he was behaving badly so didn't believe him when he denied it (which he might have been being honest about).

So I think it was mostly his fault originally, but increasingly mine (although still partly him) in the last three weeks. I don't have any problem changing my behaviour immediately once I think it's wrong (I've done it for some things he had issues with before, which he's now happy with), so maybe it was just a bad combination of me deluding myself about his motivations at a point when he was genuinely changing, which provoked a crisis.

CoteDAzur What age? I have said I didn't instigate the plan, and I didn't like the penalties side of it (I'm an Unconditional Parenting fan, so not keen on punishments/control), but I thought Lundy Bancroft was held up as some sort of guru on here and that my partner genuinely wanted to do this stuff, so I joined in like I thought I was meant to. If everyone thinks it's a bad idea I don't have any issue renouncing that strategy!

I didn't think it was a good indicator as he's dumped me in a similar manner (not identical) four times before and always come back. So I thought he might this time.

I can't give you a definitive age, but I'm thinking of 20 or so. Modifying a child's behaviour is somewhat difficult, but modifying an adult's behaviour is quite impossible.

I wouldn't depend on an adult completely changing the way they act in a couple. It is a much sounder strategy to find someone who treats you well than expect a jackass to completely change and treat you well... and continue to treat you well after years go by and your relationship is no longer lovey dovey.

I'm not talking about minor things like smoking but major character defects and modes of behaviour that are an integral part of that person.

Haven't read all the thread (am at work) but just wanted to say that I spent/wasted 5 years with an EA man and if I had my time over I would have walked away way before I actually did. His behaviour was very similar to your ex's, even down to the Facebook blocking (childish and pathetic).

If there's one piece of advice I can give you it's - they don't change. When I finally realised this I kicked mine out. I'm not saying it was easy. It was one of the hardest things I've ever down but I look back now and am amazed that I put up with so much cr@p.

One of the problems is that once you're in that situation, it starts to become normal.

Honestly, he's not going to change. If he was going to, he would have done by now. Trust me, it's much easier to be single.

Hope things work out for you.

He emailed about the Kindle. I said I'd contact him when I've moved to arrange swapping stuff via a friend.