Dumped by EA partner again

[isthistheendthistime]

I have previously been in two abusive relationships. Since the second, I've read Why Does He Do That? and the Freedom Programme materials.

I've been going out with someone else since last November. I've been friends with him for 5.5 years, so I knew he had sulky/PA tendencies. I've always liked him though and thought that he might actually be redeemable (unlike the previous two).

I made it clear that I wouldn't move in with him until I was happy with his behaviour (we're currently 200 miles away from each other but I'm moving closer soon for other reasons).

He admitted being EA months ago but has not put any real effort into fixing it till very recently, when he finally read the Lundy Bancroft book. He also read these materials: shouldistayorshouldigo.net/bonusmaterials.html and agreed to make an action plan.

We agreed to a sort of break where we wouldn't have sex/be a proper couple, but would stay exclusive and be affectionate while he worked on things.

Last time he visited he was clearly EA in front of my daughter (looking back there may have been other lesser incidents I didn't notice at the time) which was a big thing for me as previously I thought it was confined to online. Very worried about it affecting her as she grows up as she already has an abusive father, one is more than enough!

So I have been seeing it in a much more serious light and been more willing to criticise him and stand my ground when calling him on things since then (online, he hasn't been back here since).

He has dumped me four times before, changing his mind the next day. In anger, as a punishment for me not agreeing, not backing down, criticising him etc. Blaming it on us 'not being compatible' - code for it being my fault - I have Aspergers so am unusual in the way I interact sometimes (he expects a lot of verbal affection to reassure himself, this doesn't come naturally to me, although I am fine expressing physical affection), but he knew this from the start and has always seemingly accepted me as a friend.

He's started a new thing recently where he introduces a topic, then refuses to answer questions because he knows I won't like the answer. Although then he does tell me in the end so the refusing bit is an unnecessary additional frustration itself.

I'd just criticised the way he was talking about something as it could be interpreted as defensive and blaming me. This was something he'd agreed not to do in the plan. He always claims he isn't doing it when I point it out, although he agrees he does in general. So I don't know when these occasions are that he does actually do it, if each specific one is denied!

Anyway, to avoid this situation of denial I said that as I couldn't tell the difference between him doing it deliberately and a misinterpretation, maybe he should avoid using ambiguous language that could be interpreted that way. Which he agreed to. Therefore if he does it, he's in the wrong, whatever he claims was his motivation.

So I could tell he was already annoyed about me saying that he was doing it this time, and he kept doing it (and denying it) in response to my comments.

Then I asked for the final draft of his plan, he said he was reluctant to send it to me. I asked why, multiple times, he wouldn't answer (both by evasion and direct refusal). Then said "The plan has changed by a few words. You can have it, I was just reluctant, because you would rewrite it again. It's MY plan, that I can share with you."

As the plan materials say it's suitable for me to, I suggested additions to his plan when I saw the first draft. He was willing for me to do this at the time, and agreed the additions were necessary. Even his sister agreed about the alcohol-related one (she was staying with him so he mentioned it).

But now apparently he resents my input and didn't include the changes (except the alcohol stuff) discussed in the final draft anyway. And there isn't much point in having the plan if your partner is still telling you you're still behaving unacceptably in ways that aren't in it!

So I said that I felt he hadn't responded non-emotionally, and had broken other commitments in the plan, so we should enforce the penalty written into it which this time meant no contact for three days (he already had a two day ban Mon-Wed which he put in place and the way he did it felt quite controlling, like it was actually a punishment for me, especially as he blocked me on Facebook where we normally talk, which unfriends you automatically).

As soon as I said that, he said he was still here (one of the things I'd objected to was him ignoring me for 27 minutes although I'd typed to him in that time, which is a regular issue and he isn't supposed to just go away and stop talking in anger to punish me, only as a break, calmly discussed).

I said it still stood and I'd see him in three days, then logged off.

He then unfriended/blocked me on Facebook again, hid or deactivated his account (I can't see it in the search results any more), and sent me an email saying he doesn't want to talk to me again. I.e. it's over (again...).

Is there any way back from this if he changes his mind again? Have I done anything wrong in this? I mean I'm sure I haven't but you know how gaslighting makes you think you're crazy and unreasonable. I feel like I should post the entire conversation just to be fair to him so you aren't only getting one side, but it's too long.

I know everyone will just say it's a lost cause and I should give up on him. And if it was either of the last two people I'd be saying it myself. But I really thought this one could work.

I wanted him to agree to go to an abuse perpetrator's programme (as part of the external help bit of the plan), but he ignored that suggestion. Instead he wants to talk online to an ex of his (who is a counsellor). I don't have an issue with the ex bit per se, although I do wonder if she can be impartial if she sees issues coming up that they might have had too. But the counsellor bit makes me wary as I know this can enable them further. He said he'd make sure he was honest with her and she would call him on stuff (hmm).

If he does return, should I insist on some other form of outside help? And how long should I give him to improve before giving up? I don't want to set an arbitrary time limit but then I don't want to be in the same situation still being messed around in a year's time.

Sorry for extreme length!

bogeyface Everything I've read suggests that abuse is a choice and that abusers can therefore choose to stop. I'm aware this rarely happens. But him without the abusive stuff would be perfect for me, that's why I think it's worth the effort if there's a chance he will change.

I don't think he'd be a suitable friend if he didn't change anyway though, now I recognise his issues. So it's relationship or nothing I think.

Making decisions about being with someone based on supposed potential is a really bad idea. What if he never gets there? Much healthier for you to find someone who has the qualities you desire in a partner already, no?

You dont have to be in a relationship. You are putting a lot of effort in. I agree you should focus on yourself.

I am not sure you can see it, but all your responses to me are ringing klaxon alarmbells, and tell me that you need to be on your own for a bit.

Any relationship is not better than NO relationship.

Why do you think you have to be with a man?
Why do you think you have to be with a man that is causing you such agonsy? You seem quite emotionally damaged, in thinking you need to keep him with you for the greater good of woman kind, so he cannot ruin another woman. Why do you think he should be enticed back to ruin you?

He has left. He has left you with no means of contacting him.

Dont you think that right now he is in a sort of weird state of ecstasy over the power he holds over you? Is he pondering "oh, she must be out of her mind. I bet she is googling looking for me, pining for me, she must be so desperate" in glee that he has you twisted like his little finger like he has.

Would it not be good to get the upper hand and say to him, next time he comes back and says he might consider a realtionship with you IF ONLY you change X Y Z, or expect R S T from him". Why dont you just say "Actually, you are right. It is better if we part ways. I have had enough" And leave it at that.

But I think you are too addicted to this to stay away.

porridgelover Everyone has faults. I didn't realise his were definable as abuse till we were already involved. And I didn't know the extent of them then. So I wasn't thinking about changing him at the start, I thought he was OK. It's later I realised he was EA but thought he might have the potential to fix himself.

What did you yourself learn about relationships when you were growing up?.

You would be far better off on your own, as it stands you are a magnet for attracting lowlifes because of the big "Victim Here" sign written on your forehead. As you are now with your innate need to prove you along with wanting to rescue and or save such men from themselves (and you can never act as either a rescuer and or saviour within a relationship) you are an abuser's dream ticket.

Abuse is primarily about power and control.

Bloody hell - it sounds like you've put yourself in an authority position over him with this plan. No wonder he's pissed off (not that he sounds like a great chap anyway).

I can see that if one has a house, children, long history with someone then all this work might be worth a go (though even then he would have be 100% on side for it to bear fruit) but at six/seven months it sounds bizarre. Let him go and work out why you're so desperate to be in a relationship.

Ok, lets looks at this from a different perspective.

If a woman posted on here that she had met a man who she loved but he kept having a go at her for speaking to him in a way he didnt like, made her write a list of her faults in order to fix them and made it clear that every problem in the relationship was her fault due to her issues, what would you say?

What I have described above is your relationship.

It is also abusive. Something to think about maybe?

I'm sorry. I started reading this and only got half way through.

It actually sounds like he's some sort of project that you've embarked on and you MUST finish it.

You've only been with him since Nov and you've got children/a child. Get out. Seriously relationships should not be this hard work (I feel worn out just reading half your post) and certainly not in the first few months of what should be the honeymoon period.

RulersMakeBadLovers Yes I agree. That's why I want to know if he's likely to or not. I know perfectly well most abusers don't change even when they say they will. What I want, therefore, is some way of telling if he's going to be one of the ones who will. Which I suppose the book will tell me. So I will buy it. I don't think there are many people who have the qualities I desire, unfortunately. That's probably another element of it. He does, just with the abuse as well, unfortunately.

QuintessentialShadows I know I don't have to be in a relationship. I do have the willpower to ignore the unhealthy reasons for staying with him, but I don't want to let them overrule the additional sense that he actually might be one of the ones who'd change. They are separate issues to me. Because the unhealthy reasons become moot if he changes.

I don't get all this focusing on myself stuff. I've been single for over a year twice, and never felt any different. I am quite happy to be single, IF I think this is a lost cause. But I don't yet. And I wouldn't have a problem avoiding a new abusive relationship (I know what to look for now), this is just because I got involved with him before being aware of it all.

I could contact him by email or text if I wanted, but I'm not going to. He has my Kindle, but I shall wait for him to return it, won't ask for it. He'll probably just send it back by post this week.

He's never set the terms of us going back out anyway, explicitly at least. He agreed he was wrong to get angry and dump me as a punishment, he's never said I should change stuff for us to be together again (well maybe the first time, but not since).

I think I might say I won't go back out with him (not that we were anyway properly at the moment) unless/until he is fixed, if he comes back.

It's not about being co-dependent or whatever though, I just want to make sure that it is a lost cause before ending contact with him.

I shall buy the book, as that's the sort of practical advice I'm after. I.e. how to tell if he might change, rather than what everyone is telling me here, i.e. assume that he won't.

The potential thing is not even about whether he's an abuser, though (although that is obviously a big issue). It could be anything. It is really arrogant to say "You could be great, if only you weren't how you are now". You are trying to force him into being someone he isn't at this moment in time. And that is controlling, patronising and unpleasant.

Make decision based on NOW, because that's the only information that is real.

Who are you really trying to fix, anyway?

And that is controlling, patronising and unpleasant
If an MN-er posted that her OH was doing what the OP is doing it would be labelled as abusive, infact.

"him without the abusive stuff"

What you need to understand that he IS the abusive stuff.

The NICE stuff is him making a HUGE effort into reeling you back in so he can hurt you some more.

He knows FULL WELL what he is doing, he could choose to stop NOW. But he doesn't.

He WANTS you to be controlled, unhappy, insecure, second guessing yourself and crapping yourself every time he calls or doesn't call, raises his voice or doesn't speak to you. he wants to RULE your every second, waking or sleeping.

Every time you are happy, he will work to put an end to it. He will use any means to do so, everything and every one caught in the path of his determination to destroy your joy is merely collateral damage. Your kids, your friends, your health...

He is more than a lost cause, he is your enemy, he could even be your death warrant, get the fuck out while you still have a chance.

Research shows that in the extreme miniscule minority of men that DO make the change, it is only when THEIR ENTIRE LIVES/SUPPORT SYSTEM is taken away from them. When as a result of their behaviour, their family turn their backs, their kids, their partners, their friends... only when they see that THEY are OUT OF ORDER does it perhaps occur to them that they might need to rethink their choices.... Even then, the majority still think that it's OK to go it alone and find a whole new set of victims.

Wake up OP, this bloke KNOWS what he is, but refuses to change. HE WANTS to abuse you. For as long as you ALLOW him to.

AttilaTheMeerkat My parents weren't good models, I would now maybe define my dad's behaviour as abusive. They have been divorced for years.

I know perfectly well how to avoid a new abusive relationship as I know what to look for in them, and what my unhealthy attitudes are. I just want to see if this one can be fixed before I call it a day, as some do work out. And I am happy to be single if I can't find a healthy relationship (in fact I wouldn't actively go looking for one).

MooncupGoddess The plan is what was suggested in Lundy Bancroft's materials, who everyone on here seems to respect. I myself am not happy with the idea of penalties etc but that's the way the plan is supposed to work. He commits to not acting in certain abusive ways, and gets penalised by lack of contact etc if he doesn't stick to it. I would rather there was another way! But I don't know what, apart from an abuse perpetrator's programme, which I think I would encourage him to do if he came back (whether or not we're together). It's not just seven months though, we've been friends and fancied each other for 5.5 years.

bogeyface I haven't said every problem was his fault. I already changed some things he didn't like. Some compromise is normal in a relationship. But previously I was letting him get away with the EA. Now I call him on it, and don't back down in saying that it's wrong/accept blame for it myself. By your definition that means anyone in an abusive relationship who doesn't just shut up and take it is abusive themselves?! He found the plan link and wanted to follow it, I didn't make him. He wanted input from me (as the materials suggest) about what should be in it.

dexterthecat I know they shouldn't be this hard work. I just want to make sure that there's no point doing the work before I stop. I don't care if I finish it or not if it's unfinishable, what I want is help in determining whether it can be finished or not.

No I am saying that you are both as bad but in different ways. Its like a tug of war, you both want to win and gain control over the other.

Its so unbelievably unhealthy for all concerned.

RulersMakeBadLovers So anyone who says to an abusive person 'this behaviour is wrong, please stop' is abusive themselves?! I asked him to read the Lundy Bancroft book. Everything since then (except me enforcing the three day penalty yesterday, which according to the plan [that he found himself and wanted to follow] I'm supposed to do) has been led by him, after he agreed that he was abusive and shouldn't be behaving like that.

bogeyface It's like a vicious circle! Abusers can't be fixed because they don't want to be. And even if they do want to be, we'll turn it round and say you're abusing them by asking them to change.

TheHappyHissy Thanks, this is probably the most helpful post so far. I do know, intellectually, that he could choose to stop now. But because I haven't read any practical advice on how to tell if he will change or not, I've been erring by giving him the benefit of the doubt that there will be a few setbacks before he gets there. I've ordered that book now as well.

The support system thing you mentioned is partly why I think he might have a chance of changing. His father was abusive, which he recognises and hasn't been in contact with him for several years. He has bought his mother a copy of Why Does He Do That?, to help her work out some of the past stuff she suffered. And his sister agrees with the stuff he's told her about needing to change. Also three of our mutual friends know, and are supportive of me in the situation. He has also willingly told a couple of his close friends rather than continuing to hide it.

So I think with this and maybe more of his/our friends knowing, there could be a chance. Our mutual friends are not the sort to accept this stuff lightly, they have either not been involved in abusive relationships so are horrified by it, or have been and recognise that they're unhealthy. So it's not like they are still deluded and will enable him.

Honestly, stay dumped, and if geography helps, even better. These men are bloody hard to get rid of and if he thinks he's done it, that's easiest.

You need to work on yourself so you don't get dragged back into it because these men have a habit of reappearing. My FW bounces between certain exes because new women have better twat radars and send him packing.

Good luck, and find the big EA thread!

bogeyface The level of control I "want" over him is that if he is going to be in a relationship with me, I don't want to be abused, whatever form that may take. I don't see that as being controlling, it's a completely normal and reasonable expectation. I'm not forcing him to be with me in the first place.

I think you misunderstand me.

Your boundary could be "I do not want to be in an abusive relationship, therefore if you are abusive, I will end it". But it's not, is it? What are your boundaries?

I don't think you are unreasonable for wanting him to behave non-abusively. However realistically, he probably isn't going to change.

Reckon you would much be better off finding someone who doesn't have a lot of work to do. The silent treatment stuff is a nightmare to deal with and get over.

Why don't you take a break from all this and have a good think about where to go from here.

RulersMakeBadLovers My boundary is "I do not want to be in a long-term abusive relationship but I am prepared to be patient for a while if you wish to work on stopping being abusive and staying with me". The only issue I have is determining exactly how patient I should be, and when to give up on it.

Now.

Ok, then. Good luck.

Regardless of what anyone else says, do you have a time limit or a measure of non-abusiveness so that you know when to say enough is enough? How can anyone help you with determining that, given that we all clearly have different boundaries and consequences?

RulersMakeBadLovers Well no, not yet. I'm going to read the Should I Stay book when it arrives and see if I get any more idea from that.

I know everyone is different, but if I heard from people whose partners have changed, there might be a pattern to when they knew it was working. I.e. whether it took days/weeks/months to settle down, so I at least had some scale.

I think in terms of abusiveness, doing it in front of my daughter again would be the limit. So he wouldn't be invited back here until I was happy with his behaviour online.

It is actually both abusive and manipulative of you to try and change him....