Dumped by EA partner again

[isthistheendthistime]

I have previously been in two abusive relationships. Since the second, I've read Why Does He Do That? and the Freedom Programme materials.

I've been going out with someone else since last November. I've been friends with him for 5.5 years, so I knew he had sulky/PA tendencies. I've always liked him though and thought that he might actually be redeemable (unlike the previous two).

I made it clear that I wouldn't move in with him until I was happy with his behaviour (we're currently 200 miles away from each other but I'm moving closer soon for other reasons).

He admitted being EA months ago but has not put any real effort into fixing it till very recently, when he finally read the Lundy Bancroft book. He also read these materials: shouldistayorshouldigo.net/bonusmaterials.html and agreed to make an action plan.

We agreed to a sort of break where we wouldn't have sex/be a proper couple, but would stay exclusive and be affectionate while he worked on things.

Last time he visited he was clearly EA in front of my daughter (looking back there may have been other lesser incidents I didn't notice at the time) which was a big thing for me as previously I thought it was confined to online. Very worried about it affecting her as she grows up as she already has an abusive father, one is more than enough!

So I have been seeing it in a much more serious light and been more willing to criticise him and stand my ground when calling him on things since then (online, he hasn't been back here since).

He has dumped me four times before, changing his mind the next day. In anger, as a punishment for me not agreeing, not backing down, criticising him etc. Blaming it on us 'not being compatible' - code for it being my fault - I have Aspergers so am unusual in the way I interact sometimes (he expects a lot of verbal affection to reassure himself, this doesn't come naturally to me, although I am fine expressing physical affection), but he knew this from the start and has always seemingly accepted me as a friend.

He's started a new thing recently where he introduces a topic, then refuses to answer questions because he knows I won't like the answer. Although then he does tell me in the end so the refusing bit is an unnecessary additional frustration itself.

I'd just criticised the way he was talking about something as it could be interpreted as defensive and blaming me. This was something he'd agreed not to do in the plan. He always claims he isn't doing it when I point it out, although he agrees he does in general. So I don't know when these occasions are that he does actually do it, if each specific one is denied!

Anyway, to avoid this situation of denial I said that as I couldn't tell the difference between him doing it deliberately and a misinterpretation, maybe he should avoid using ambiguous language that could be interpreted that way. Which he agreed to. Therefore if he does it, he's in the wrong, whatever he claims was his motivation.

So I could tell he was already annoyed about me saying that he was doing it this time, and he kept doing it (and denying it) in response to my comments.

Then I asked for the final draft of his plan, he said he was reluctant to send it to me. I asked why, multiple times, he wouldn't answer (both by evasion and direct refusal). Then said "The plan has changed by a few words. You can have it, I was just reluctant, because you would rewrite it again. It's MY plan, that I can share with you."

As the plan materials say it's suitable for me to, I suggested additions to his plan when I saw the first draft. He was willing for me to do this at the time, and agreed the additions were necessary. Even his sister agreed about the alcohol-related one (she was staying with him so he mentioned it).

But now apparently he resents my input and didn't include the changes (except the alcohol stuff) discussed in the final draft anyway. And there isn't much point in having the plan if your partner is still telling you you're still behaving unacceptably in ways that aren't in it!

So I said that I felt he hadn't responded non-emotionally, and had broken other commitments in the plan, so we should enforce the penalty written into it which this time meant no contact for three days (he already had a two day ban Mon-Wed which he put in place and the way he did it felt quite controlling, like it was actually a punishment for me, especially as he blocked me on Facebook where we normally talk, which unfriends you automatically).

As soon as I said that, he said he was still here (one of the things I'd objected to was him ignoring me for 27 minutes although I'd typed to him in that time, which is a regular issue and he isn't supposed to just go away and stop talking in anger to punish me, only as a break, calmly discussed).

I said it still stood and I'd see him in three days, then logged off.

He then unfriended/blocked me on Facebook again, hid or deactivated his account (I can't see it in the search results any more), and sent me an email saying he doesn't want to talk to me again. I.e. it's over (again...).

Is there any way back from this if he changes his mind again? Have I done anything wrong in this? I mean I'm sure I haven't but you know how gaslighting makes you think you're crazy and unreasonable. I feel like I should post the entire conversation just to be fair to him so you aren't only getting one side, but it's too long.

I know everyone will just say it's a lost cause and I should give up on him. And if it was either of the last two people I'd be saying it myself. But I really thought this one could work.

I wanted him to agree to go to an abuse perpetrator's programme (as part of the external help bit of the plan), but he ignored that suggestion. Instead he wants to talk online to an ex of his (who is a counsellor). I don't have an issue with the ex bit per se, although I do wonder if she can be impartial if she sees issues coming up that they might have had too. But the counsellor bit makes me wary as I know this can enable them further. He said he'd make sure he was honest with her and she would call him on stuff (hmm).

If he does return, should I insist on some other form of outside help? And how long should I give him to improve before giving up? I don't want to set an arbitrary time limit but then I don't want to be in the same situation still being messed around in a year's time.

Sorry for extreme length!

I think you're unlikely to hear from people who have managed to stay in an EA relationship with a partner who has changed, because they are as rare as hens' teeth.

If you are determined to pursue this 'relationship' then please set yourself some clear boundaries and stick to them, e.g. he has 2 months and if he is still x.y.z it is over.

Doing it in front of your daughter is not a good enough limit because by abusing you, even away from her, he is taking away from her the strong independent mother she should have and replacing her with a subservient victim.

QuintessentialShadows Have you read the Should I Stay materials? They were linked from the EA support thread on this board. I do not understand why following something Lundy Bancroft (who seems well-respected on here) suggests is me being controlling.

My partner wanted to take these actions, he wanted me to call him out on abuse, he wanted my input on the plan, he wanted to change. Everyone has conditions they expect to be met in a relationship. Apparently most people's boundary means that they would leave immediately in this situation. But if you both want to stay and work it out, how is one supposed to do that without the victim being open to accusations of mutual abuse?

What should I do in this situation if not what my partner requested, i.e. want and support him to change? And I don't mean 'leave'. Assuming I'm staying, how should I act so as not to be called controlling? The whole point of the plan Bancroft has set out is to have something the abuser can be held to, to account for, rather than just verbal promises which are forgotten or denied.

DoingItForMyself I will set those boundaries once I've read the book, as hopefully it will give me a better idea what they should be. I think the not doing it in front of her is a good enough limit in the meantime, as I'm not going to be any more damaged than I already am in that space of time. As I said, I don't feel trapped in this relationship like I did in the others, so I'm happy to leave it once I'm sure it's unsalvageable.

But he isn't doing what you want, is he?

It just sounds like you're putting so much effort into this relationship. Relationships might be hard work occasionally, but not from the very beginning.

you know -i have just been reading through your op and noticed this

"I have Aspergers so am unusual in the way I interact sometimes (he expects a lot of verbal affection to reassure himself, this doesn't come naturally to me, although I am fine expressing physical affection), but he knew this from the start and has always seemingly accepted me as a friend."

just like you knew he was sulky as a friend and a bit passive aggresive and went into the relationship with your eyes open.

it's like you both knew what you were getting yet thought that as soon as you became more than friends , you would both change.

cut your losses. you both sound like you're making each other miserable

The thing is that after seven months of relationship he's not a partner - he's a newish boyfriend. I appreciate that five years of friendship/mutual attraction mean you're quite invested in him, but a friendship is very different from a relationship, and I think you said earlier that, knowing what you do about him, you wouldn't want to be just friends with him again anyway?

I haven't read Lundy Bancroft's book so willing to be corrected, but had assumed it was about long-term partnerships where the couple's lives are totally entwined. You're still at the dating stage.

It also sounds as if you'll 'yes, but....' every POV on here that doesn't fit with what you think or want.

I think you're better off without him. As will he be sans you. He's not a project. He's a human who sounds EA. Cut your losses.

Do you think your Aspergers makes you more dependent on rules/manuals for doing things than other people,OP? This might explain why you are clinging to the Lundy book even when people suggest it's not appropriate for your situation.

Just because he is abusive doesnt mean that you by default, cant be.

He's not a project

Exactly. And that is not a good place to start a relationship. You cant look at someone and think "oh he would be perfect if......." its not like buying a fixer upper that will be a nice home with a new kitchen and some wallpaper.

Now that you have pointed out the Aspergers twice in this thread Mooncup, I think that the OP may have some trouble interpreting what is said here and the whole intention of the Lundy book. I have read the book, and yes, Lundy is generally dealing with marriages where there is evidence of long term abuse. It is not a guide on how to change a man that you have known for several months, rather, it is meant to help your identify abusive men that you are in a long term relationship with.

Other posters have made some really great points OP, which I notice that you seem to have some trouble interpreting. And I mean that with a great deal of kindness. I would suggest that you print this thread off and take it to a trusted friend to discuss this with. I can see that you are very articulate and methodical in responding to other posters, but you seem to be missing the point of their information some of the time.

Good luck

gymboywalton Yes I knew he was sulky, but I didn't realise the extent of it. If he'd stayed how he was then it wouldn't have been such an issue. He got worse when we went out, and new things revealed themselves. So it's not that I expected him to get better, more that I didn't know he would get worse.

MooncupGoddess No, if he doesn't change I wouldn't want to be friends with him either, now. But different people place different values on a relationship at different stages, to me this is important enough to put the effort in if there's a chance it will work. I don't feel like we're dating, I do see him as a partner (well, as partner-y as someone abusive can be!).

I have only read the first book so far, which is about recognising current and avoiding future abusive relationships. I think the second one will give me more of an idea whether this one is worth saving, it may well mention length of relationship etc as factors to consider.

LostMyIdentityAlongTheWay Well I'll answer the points people are making. I won't suddenly change my POV if nobody provides info I hadn't already considered. But I only get one life, and if it could be better long-term for some short-term suffering, I'll take it. I just need to decide if he is likely to change or not.

MooncupGoddess Yes I do like rules, they make life simpler. But has anyone actually read the second book? I think they might have been talking about the first one. I will see when I get it, anyway.

bogeyface I didn't say it did mean that. But I am confused as to how someone in this situation should act so as not to be controlling? Should I not be pointing out when he is doing something he previously agreed was wrong then?

I didn't think he was a project when I got involved with him. As I said, I thought he was OK to start with. But then the abusive stuff became more obvious, partly cos I read about it, and partly cos he did more things and more often.

SoSad007 You've read the second book? The Should I Stay one? Or just the Why Does He one? This is why I've ordered Should I Stay, to see if it fits our situation, to see if this is worth working on. Because I realised maybe using the plan (which is available online separately) suggested in it is pointless if this particular relationship isn't worth saving.

From my POV they're missing the point of my stuff too! But I have the same issues with my friends (who don't really live near me anyway), mutual misunderstanding of points. So I don't think they would be able to explain it better.

Don't take this to mean that all our issues are Aspergers-related though, I can identify those separately from the abusive stuff. He does get frustrated with our miscommunication sometimes, but the way he responds to that still isn't acceptable. And there are many other things which aren't prompted by that anyway.

Have scrolled on so may have missed stuff in the meantime.

If you are dumped now, stay dumped.

IF you stay with him you are condoning the him he is now. He will say that he will TRY to change.

TRYING is not good enough.

LEAVE him to sort himself out. Properly. give it at least a year before agreeing to go out with him even as friends. He has to know that there is NO chance of you taking back the person he is, and that this is a journey HE must make on his own.

You need the break from this, HE needs to sort himself out. Cut things off for now and revisit in a couple of years, if you still feel so obliged to do so.

"QuintessentialShadows Have you read the Should I Stay materials? They were linked from the EA support thread on this board. I do not understand why following something Lundy Bancroft (who seems well-respected on here) suggests is me being controlling."

erm, because he quite clearly does not want to?

TheHappyHissy Thanks, you have been very helpful in this thread. It's that sort of practical advice I was after (not just the standard 'leave the bastard'). I think it's a good idea to leave him to it and see if he does it on his own before reconsidering.

That will also stop me apparently being abusive too, if I'm no longer involved in the process!

He can wake up tomorrow and choose to be nice. That is as hard as it gets.

By agreeing to 'work on it with you' he will get to the position where he will still find a way to control/abuse you to YOUR accepted limits. It won't be healthy, and the abusive habits will return. There ARE no healthy limits for abuse, and anyway it ALWAYS escalates.

he has to know that his abuse of YOU has cost him YOU. That YOU don't want the HIM he is now.

Just as he can choose to be nice, YOU can choose NOT to put up with abuse. Black and white thinking is the ONLY way out of this. NO grey areas.

Nothing less than this. NOTHING.

QuintessentialShadows Hmm, I do have issues knowing when people are lying. I assumed because he said he wanted to (repeatedly and in differing ways) that he did.

Still, don't see how that's controlling of me if I wasn't aware he didn't actually want to. It's not like I knew he didn't and still tried to force him.

I think that negotiating the level of abuse you will be willing to put up with, trying to control a man who wants to be cruel and abusive is pretty absurd. Why not just stay dumped.

Suit yourself. It is your life and your relationship. You are quite clearly trying to find your own boundaries, and looking for a way of coping with cruelty, lies and abuse. I am not going to try and persuade you otherwise.

Actually forget my last post, it is not your relationship, you are dumped, for trying to make him behave better towards you.

I AM still saying LEAVE him. I am still thinking he's a bastard.

I am also saying that unless he proves it to you, beyond all shadow of a doubt, and it would have to be a sustained period of at least 2 years without him controlling you or mistreating you then it will NEVER be together again.

Clearly you don't tell him the phase length, but that is the upper limit of most abusive partners 'behaving' for before they turn. Just between you and me, OK?

any less categoric and firm than this? forget it, he'll wheedle his way back in and you will be accepting a grade 2 abuser as a better model than a grade 5 or 6.

The only acceptable level of abuse is ZERO.

As for YOU being abusive, FFS, you are not. IF he was serious about working on himself he'd be sucking it ALL up, taking ALL your points, considering them and THEN challenging them in an intelligent and thoughtful way.

He didn't do that.

For now you have to write him off and HE has to know that you have. IF he wants you back, he has to prove himself to you, and YOU, btw are a tough crowd (to him!)

If you are able to recognize that he is abusive, and you are not (as many manipulators will have you think to be honest), why are you still keen on being with him? Why fight to get this relationship back?

QuintessentialShadows I've just said I will leave him to it! I just didn't want to dump him forever if there was a chance it could work, but HappyHissy's posts have pointed out that there is a third way, which I hadn't considered. To let him prove he can do it alone, and then reconsider it later if he is behaving non-abusively then.

I do think your argument is illogical though. I'm not saying relationships can't be mutually abusive. I just fail to see how saying X isn't acceptable to me in a relationship is abusive, where X itself is abusive behaviour.

And I wasn't willing to put up with any amount of abuse long-term, just while I established how long I should be patient. Which regardless of how many people say 'no time at all', it wasn't clear WHY, if some abusive relationships do get fixed, and this could be one, why I shouldn't wait and see to some extent. Until HH posted.

TheHappyHissy Yes I get that I shouldn't be giving him hope now. If he comes back I will tell him as long as he is abusive I'm not remotely interested, and that even if he does sort it out there would obviously be an indefinite period where we'd be friends before reconsidering anything more.

I do understand that less is not OK still, that's why I was very careful not to do anything to trap myself in this relationship after I realised what he was like. Whereas with my previous partner, I moved in with him after a few months.

I probably will end up seeing him socially occasionally as most of our friends are mutual, but I won't arrange to spend time with him alone or have in-depth conversations online.

What do you mean by 'a tough crowd'?

QuintessentialShadows Because I spent many years being good friends with him, and wondering if he was a potential partner, and it's hard to just throw that away and cut him out forever if there is a chance he can be a normal, healthy, responsive partner.

I'm happy to take the long view and separate properly now though, if it will be worth it in the end. Whether that end will be him changing and us getting back together, or me being happy alone or with someone non-abusive.

Saying X is unacceptable isn't abusive. Micro-managing change in someone else is controlling, though. I understand where you're coming from - I tried to do it with an alcoholic (and sometimes nasty) ex. It took me a while to ask myself who on earth I thought I was to decide he wasn't good enough as a person and that he wasn't reaching his potential and that I had all the answers for him to do that. He wasn't right for me as a partner and that's the bottom line. Hissy's right - time to leave him be. He'll show you who he is soon enough.

I sense that lightbulbs need to be going off for both of you before this can be a healthy relationship.

I'm not saying WAIT.

I'm saying END it.

IF he wants you back, let him PROVE that you would be right to have him back.

If he wants it badly enough, he will, but in the meantime YOU need to live your life.

YOU need therapy to establish why you DO accept less than perfect men in your life, and why you are potentially willing to sacrifice happiness in your life for the sake of an abusive man.

You can't negotiate on abuse. Zero is the only answer. he has to know that he is a DUD unless he chooses to re-join the human race.