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Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

Being drink does not mean you deserve it.

999 replies

OhNoMyFanjo · 02/06/2012 11:25

I have been reading some comments on tge DM site re an interview with a women who was raped. Her rapist has just been convicted. She has had many terrible things said about her in her community due to the rapist being a pillar of tge community.

I wanted to share this comment that someone has made as it sums up what should be obvious to everyone but unfortunately there are some people who don't get it.

You don't get raped because you are drunk - you vomit because you are drunk. You get raped because the rapist standing next to you made the decision to rape you and acted on it. The rapist is the only one accountable for going on to rape a person. End.

OP posts:
nutellaontoast · 03/06/2012 23:34

If you say: "Women shouldn't drink because they're vulnerable to rapists"

  • then it is the responsability of women to modify their behaviours in order not to be raped.
  • and if they are raped after having a drink, they have failed in the responsability you have placed upon them i.e. the victim feels to blame for the action of her attacker.

You can (and of couse have) insist that you aren't victim-blaming but it is the unavoidable end-point of your argument. If you read a story like the one to which the OP was referring, and your thought is "she shouldn't have drunk so much" you are laying blame at the wrong door entirely. At the victim's.

OhNoMyFanjo · 03/06/2012 23:34

I'm actually sorry I started this thread. It was meant to be a positive, affirming thread certainly not something that someone who has been through rape could read and be made to feel worse.

OP posts:
nutellaontoast · 03/06/2012 23:39

I dunno ohno if you read upthread I think lots of people have been helped out by the arguments put. The overwhelming opinion supports your OP really, sure if dear bumbley wasn't here we'd have no-one to shout at debate with shout at eh?

waltermittymissus · 03/06/2012 23:45

bumbley are you really the sort of person who will do anything, say anything not to be wrong?

Is being right so important to you?

We won't back down you know. Because you are categorically NOT
right.

HerRoyaleHoighnessDirona · 04/06/2012 00:00

ohno your op and the mythbusters posts have helped me and believe me I have done a lot of self blaming.

I hope it helps other victims too.

And you lot are the courageous ones Thanks

soontobecourageousposterintrainingwheels

Offred · 04/06/2012 00:01

Ohno - I'm not sorry. Bumbley is a lone voice. I'm glad of that and glad of the support. I've long since decided it doesn't matter what other people think but it is nice to know the majority are no longer hostile and blaming. After my first rape I had to go into work, I couldn't keep it secret, I was a mess, none of my workmates believed me, they called me "prick tease" I got bullied out of the job, I was convinced I was wrong and that way of treating women was normal. The attitudes were SO damaging to me and shut down my feelings for so long.

Offred · 04/06/2012 00:07

And I'm finding it cathartic too. Sometimes having to keep all this stuff secret from everyone that loves me is just incredibly hard. This thread has been a real outlet for me and helped me crystallise my current position and feelings.

Empusa · 04/06/2012 00:21

"Some people do actually understand the point I was making. Empusa was one of them and there were another couple of posters earlier in the thread who made similar points. None of us are 'victim blamers'."

Woah.

I said I understood what you were getting at, not that I agreed. I think you are totally wrong, and are thinking the all too common thought of "if I don't do x then it wont happen to me". Which is understandable, let's face it, the thought of being vulnerable no matter what we do is terrifying. It's much less scary to think we have some control over what happens to us. But just because it is reassuring, and would be preferable to the reality, doesn't make it true.

And, whether you want to admit to it or not, it is victim blaming to say that changing behaviour can prevent rape.

bumbleymummy · 04/06/2012 00:25

Walter, where did you read that? It certainly wasn't something I wrote.

Porto (and others) - saying you are more vulnerable when you are drunk is not the same as saying 'it is your fault' or anything like it.

Herroyale, I have read the rape myths and I am not perpetuating any of them.

Nutella, that thought never crossed my mind when I read that story.

It's very obvious from all your comments that none of you actually get the point I'm making at all. (some earlier posters did) You think I'm saying something that I'm not and I'm tired of trying to explain something that is so basic. Good night again.

bumbleymummy · 04/06/2012 00:28

Empusa, I didn't say you agreed with me, I did use the word 'understand'- you just quoted it. I have said several times that I don't think it will protect me from rape full stop but if a rapist is targeting a woman walking home alone drunk then it will protect me from him. That is all. Nothing more.

Empusa · 04/06/2012 00:32

"saying you are more vulnerable when you are drunk is not the same as saying 'it is your fault' or anything like it."

Yes. It is.

If drunk = vulnerable
Then choosing to be drunk = choosing to be vulnerable

Telling someone that they made the choice to be vulnerable is telling them that their choice made a difference to the resulting rape. Therefore suggesting that they should have done differently. That they had some influence on the rape. That ~they hold some of the blame.

Offred · 04/06/2012 00:32

That's why people have a problem with what you say Bumbley. Because you are saying that you can change your behaviour to avoid "some" rape.

Empusa · 04/06/2012 00:35

"I don't think it will protect me from rape full stop but if a rapist is targeting a woman walking home alone drunk then it will protect me from him. That is all. Nothing more."

And as I pointed out earlier, a rapist may be targeting brunettes. In that situation you could dye your hair blonde and be safe from that rapist. In that scenario the brunette is more vulnerable, but no one would suggest women all dying their hair blonde to make them less vulnerable just because a rapist may target them otherwise. That would be ludicrous.

bumbleymummy · 04/06/2012 00:48

"Telling someone that they made the choice to be vulnerable is telling them that their choice made a difference to the resulting rape."

No, empusa, it does not because, to quote from the 'we believe you campaign':

"REALITY: Being vulnerable does not imply consent. If a woman is drunk, drugged or unconscious, she is not able to consent to sex(5)"

I completely agree with that.

bumbleymummy · 04/06/2012 00:48

Why is my holding not working?

bumbleymummy · 04/06/2012 00:49

bolding

HerRoyaleHoighnessDirona · 04/06/2012 01:19

And in that theory Bumbly you will be safe and the drunk woman will be raped. It's ok if you get home ok? Hmm

bumbleymummy · 04/06/2012 01:58

"It's ok if you get home ok? "

Don't be ridiculous.

geekette · 04/06/2012 03:15

"I have said several times that I don't think it will protect me from rape full stop but if a rapist is targeting a woman walking home alone drunk then it will protect me from him."

That is bullshit Bumbley and I will try once again to explain why although I think it is a very pointless endeavour right now.

A rapist does not target "women who ... insert any crap criteria you want here".
He targets A woman. A particular woman and then he looks for some vulnerability which he can exploit, rely on or act upon. Rape is a power game and THAT seems to be the one thing you do not seem to be capable of grasping. Please speak to some blokes on what they think of sex and power.

The woman being drunk is not what made her easier prey compared to you, the sober one. He NEVER saw you is why you got home safe (even if he were standing right in front of you, looking right at you, no matter how pretty you think you look)!!! And not because he was looking for the easiest catch.

If he DID see you, then you can bet your bottom dollar, he doesn't give a hoot about the drunk babe even if she is lying in the dark alley, with her dress rolled up which he just walked into.

If he can find anything, absolutely anything to use to get you, he will even if it takes days or weeks. Does that help you recognise why saying that staying sober offers more protection to anyone is a complete fallacy?

It offers no protection WHATSOEVER. Please try to understand that! It is the exact equivalent of living in a glass house with the best burglar alarm connected to the fastest response police force in the world.

Being sober makes YOU feel safe. It does NOT make you safe.

And it IS victim blaming because "If you were that chick, you would have known better than to get in that state" is the exact corollary of what you are saying and it also shortens or equates to "the passed out chick should have known better".

That is total and complete shite. The guy who put his dick in her when she was comatose should have known better. I know definitely what I would think of my husband, father, brother, son or co-worker if they put their penis in a drunken woman and you know that too!!! It is they who should have known better for crying out loud!

I know you are the voice of a silent mass of people. But there are also another silent mass who have to put up with their mother's guilt for not telling their precious daughters to have behaved better... No mate. Your daughter will need a mother who understands that dicks don't get placed randomly more than she will need your flipping misguided guilt.

Like sport, I advocate being sober because, after being drunk a few times and being able to compare the morning after feeling, I prefer the healthy feeling of being sober. I also feel the "reassurance" of a sober night out but I am not delusional as to the actual benefits of it.

I have never / not yet been raped and my heart goes out to all those survivors out there. My sister's friend was raped in broad daylight, near a busy street, and the reaction of the authorities was appalling. It was a Sunday, the police were off duty and told her to come back the following day. WTF? I am glad things have changed. And before you ask (as only a victim blamer would) No, she wasn't drunk or wearing some skimpy clothes or some other rat-arsed "what bad girl thing could she have been possibly up to to warrant the attack" yada yada yada something about the raped person must have been off bla-di-bla crap.

Try to understand what victim blaming is, then take a good look in the mirror and realise that IT could actually happen to YOU. And instead of flying off in fright to lock yourself in, stand up and fight for yourself, your daughters, sisters, aunts, mothers and girl friends.

HerRoyaleHoighnessDirona · 04/06/2012 03:41

Thankyou Geekette, that has cleared a few things in my head.

I was raped because I looked almost exactly like his ex wife. The wife who left him and took all his money and his house according to him he wanted revenge but couldn't take it out on his ex.

geekette · 04/06/2012 03:45

I am sooo sorry. I just have no words which can reflect what I want to say. It is a heinous crime.

I think you are doing great HRH hanging in there the way you are. I like to think I am strong but... I doubt it. You are a shining light to me :)

HerRoyaleHoighnessDirona · 04/06/2012 04:06

Geekette, you are strong, with the words that support survivors.

Your post makes a lot of sense.

And is a light to survivors.

sashh · 04/06/2012 06:21

Lemar, it's not a cause but if you are not drunk you are less vulnerable.

Rubbish.

Offred · 04/06/2012 07:42

Geekette - what a brilliant post!

GobblersKnob · 04/06/2012 07:42

Actual (bitter) lol at bumbleymummy coming back to the thread after a whole day to say Not getting drawn into this again....

geekette your post is brilliant and couldn't be any clearer.

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