sex while asleep

[silver999]

my partner woke me up by having sex with me, I was really shocked at what was happening and not sure what to do or think about what has happened.
I told my friend but she just laughed about it, any advice? thanks.

No, rape isn't a crime if there's no intent - if a man reasonably believes that a woman is consenting, even though she isn't, then he would have a defence to a charge of rape. Doesn't sound like the OP's boyf could fall into that category - you can't reasonably believe that a sleeping person is consenting!

"the language that can be used by abusers to manipulate their victims into believing that they are freely consenting, when in fact if they were free of the manipulation they might decide not to consent."

If you believed at the time that you were consenting and gave no indication otherwise, then you have consented. If one wants a clean definition of rape, then it is hard to beat the current legal one: for it not to be rape the perpetrator has to REASONABLY believe that consent has been granted. There has to be a mens rea for it to be a crime. Bad sex, sex regretted ex post facto etc is NOT rape. Equally, except for very extreme circumstances, people have to take responsibility to make clear the lack of consent, either verbally or by their actions. If that is not the case, it opens up a can of worms, including a load of rape actions from men who have been goaded into sex by women saying they should be up for it all the time. I really do not believe this implies that women are "in a continuous state of consent". It merely allows the separation of persuasion from force. Persuasion should be allowed in all human interactions, and especially sex.

Infantilising people for their own protection is ultimately bad for all concerned.

The above does not directly relate to this thread where there does not seem to have been any actual or implied consent and the lack of contraception, against the will of one party, adds a disturbing element. On the other hand, I doubt the OP wants to actually go to the police and make a complaint (although I could be wrong). The best option in this kind of case is just to leave and make abundantly clear exactly why.

larrygrylls - that is a refreshingly brilliant post, thankyou

Why Larry is wrong: www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2010/03/25/predator-theory/

Larry, it's all about what you call persuasion. In a charge of rape, nagging, threatening, blackmailing and lying specifically nullify consent.

I thought Thistledew was demonstrating abusive manipulation, not suggesting that all the manipulations used were sufficient to prove rape. As I said, I thought she invoked some common abusive methods very well.

Garlic,

I don't believe nagging nullifies consent. Please demonstrate to me a case where this occurred. As to threatening, blackmailing and lying, clearly these DO nullify consent depending on context as it has to be informed consent and not under duress.

Re Thistledew's scenario, adults do have to deal with wheedling behaviour and threats to leave a relationship. Those are not abusive or in any sense rape unless the perpetrator is using other forms of abusive leverage (financial, threat of violence, threat to remove children etc).

I disagree with you, Larry, about what constitutes emotional abuse.

I prefer not to spend time looking up references for you! There are links and quotes in this thread already.

Larry, it depends on the use of language.
The abuser may ask in a way that the victim thinks she/he is consenting to something, when the abuser means something else and will use the consent in that way.

Lueji and Garlic,

I guess that would be for the police and courts to decide depending on exact circumstance. However, I don't think one should push the envelope of "abuse" too far before it loses meaning altogether. If people of sound mind make a decision to have intercourse of their own volition without any coercion, then you have to assume that they have consented (and the law will do so). The fact that they are in an unhappy relationship and afraid to leave it, and if there are no other factors, then they have to take responsibility for their own actions, regardless of nagging, wheedling etc.

If everyone who has had duty sex in an unhappy relationship could go back retrospectively and examine their consent, then I would say that we have all been raped (technically sexually assaulted in a man's case).

Wouldn't it be better if we were all aware of that fact, Larry, and moved towards greater honesty/respect in our relationships and with ourselves?

Garlic,

Personally, no, I don't think so. I think that we have to accept that we are people, with flaws and weaknesses but that we have self determination, rather than look to blame others for exploiting our weaknesses. It does not mean that you will look back fondly on the person! On the other hand, blurring unhappiness and criminality is not desirable, IMO.

Fair enough but it helps me. When I know something is illegal - or in an authoritative definition of abuse - I feel confident to reject it.

It's not even only if we "allow" it to happen.

It gives abused people greater standing and empowers the police and the courts to enforce distance from the abuser.

The fact that my ex hit me because essentially I didn't want to have sex with him that time, is attempted rape IMO. Because next time he'd want sex I'd be worried that he would hit me again.
Not simply that our marriage was unhappy, or simply that he was physically violent.
Strictly, I would consent if I had sex with him again, but was that consent given freely?

Lueji,

I think I explicitly stated that consent under duress nullifies consent. If someone is hitting you if you refuse sex, yes they are raping you. I don't think the current law would dispute that.

Going back to your post, if someone is afraid to leave, what does that mean?
Surely it's not just an unhappy marriage...

To me, personally, consent means actively wanting to do something, rather than purely giving permission.

Lueji,

Many people fear being single and leaving the "comfort" of a relationship, even a bad one. That is all I meant and, yes, that can just be an unhappy marriage.

Portofino,

That is not what consent means. To consent to do something means to agree to it. You cannot unilaterally change the meaning of the English language to suit what you feel it ought to mean. Should two people have sex unless both are enthusiastic participants? Well, maybe not but there is a huge gap between what should happen in an ideal world and what is abusive or criminal behaviour. A lot of human life falls in the middle.

Larry I think that sex should only happen between 2 actively participating people, yes.

Running,

There is a difference between active and enthusiastic.

Really Larry? In an earlier post you talk of 'persuasion'. What form of 'persuasion' is ok in your book before a line is crossed? Emotional blackmail, emotional withdrawal, or threats?

Running,

I think you need to look "persuade" up in a dictionary. In fact, I will save you the trouble:

"per·suade (pr-swd)
tr.v. per·suad·ed, per·suad·ing, per·suades
To induce to undertake a course of action or embrace a point of view by means of argument, reasoning, or entreaty"

Where does argument, reasoning or entreaty include anything that you have mentioned? Unless you'd like to redefine those as well.

Argument? You think arguing with your partner to make them have sex is ok?

Do you think what happened to the op (who happens to be male, and assuming that the op was genuine) was ok?

Running,

If you would care to read my posts, I have explicitly stated that what happened to the OP was not OK.

It is fine to have an intellectual argument with your partner in favour of having sex. Whether that will persuade him/her to have sex is rather dependent on the individuals concerned. However, there is nothing wrong with having a go.

That entirely depends Larry. I have enough experience of life to know what one person might consider 'reasonable arguing' can actually be very aggressive/threatening to another person. I have read your posts, I find them very disturbing.

I wouldn't persuade my DH to have sex. I might kiss him and cuddle him and hope he'd change his mind if he wasn't in the mood, but IMO verbally cajoling a person is really immature and a total turn off. I don't see what you could say to change a person's mind that wouldn't involve some sort of manipulation.