DS and DD really don't like each other and can't/won't get on.

[IDontWantToBeFatAnymore]

They have said they hate each other and wish they were not here. . I don't know what to do. They are 11 and eight.

There is some great advice on here. My 2 DS - aged 10 and 7 - also regularly say they hate each other (esp DS1 wishes DS2 had never been born etc)

One book that helped me quite a lot was 'Siblings without Rivalry' - it helped me to stand back and cool down before I weigh in/get dragged in/get depressed about the situation.

Having some fighting and conflicts between siblings is of course NORMAL - it took a while for me to realise this because I was so sensitized to the constant battles that even the slightest hint of a bicker would get me all wound up.

I found that book (by the authors of How to Talk so your kids will listen etc) had good strategies to help deal with the situations that went beyond normal - recurrent themes, really hurtful language, physically hurting each other etc

YYYYYYY ANY 2 is easier, no problem at all. I have been to the shops with DS1 and 2 and no problems at all with looking/walking around.

DS2 is very easy going most of the time and very very affectionate. He is torn at the moment as he can go to nanny's for a sleepover once he is better and he wants to go for 2 nights but misses me when he stays that long. He has learnt to stick up for himself but needs to not copy the mad stuff from his older brother so much.

The counting to 20 is brilliant. Definitely going to use that one.

Mine are told if they lie that is double the trouble but the older 2 have held out for 45 minutes before confessing in the past and maintained their innocence all the way through. It is tricky as they are very convincing at times .

If they look like holding out for a long time on the truth, I say for every 5 minutes it takes to get there something will happen eg no TV for a day - so 45 mins would be no TV for 9 days. I loudly count off the minutes. I don't often do this, but when I do they know I mean business.

The counting to 20 does generally work really well - I can hear frantic negotiations going on as they desperately seek a solution!

All is quiet at the moment in the IDWTBFA house .

GoosleyLoosey - THANK YOU. Just used the counting to 20 (but I did 10) and it worked a treat. Thank you .

I would really recomment sibling wo rivalry too! Works a treat for us.

Along with never taking anyone side because otherwise it quite often looks like on the back of one of them all the time and the other 'gets away with it', at least in the eyes of their sibling.
In most cases when one of the dc has been hit by the other, both have done something wrong. Eg: dc1 winded dc2, dc2 got upset and hit dc1. Both dcs could have behave better and therefore both are told off!

I also send them to their bedroom, not as punishment. It is a 'you need to be in 2 different rooms because otherwise it's too dangerous' When tyou have both calmes down, then you can play again together.

I feel sad today. Having 2 is so much easier and the boys have mostly got on and played nicely together. Picking up dd tomorrow morning and I can't wait to see her but already ds1 not happy.

Can he give specifics about it?

So far he has said she shows off, won't play with him/share toys and books, lies and over reacts.

I can't wait to see her but feel really bad that I have enjoyed an easier day.

I could separate them more, just wasn't sure if that wasn't facing the issues head on. Same as not sending them to inlaws as I don't want whoever went to think I didn't want them or was getting their own way by getting away from DD/S. I know I have jumped in too soon and not let them work things out and I thought the above would be doing the same thing.

Maybe they do need their own space and time with you, instead of in each other's space?

I have been implimenting your suggestions and when I felt I was losing it I just took DS2's teddy off him and was firm. All okay now.

IDWTBFA, separating children and sending doing different activities can help as well as spending some time on your own (just mum and one of the dcs) doing something that they enjoy/want to do with you.

What I found worked with my 2 is to spend a lot of time concentrating on the behavior rather than the person and re-establishing what is right or wrong.
So if you take the not sharing, my comment is always 'Well I am sure that dc1 will share this toy with you when he is ready. In the mean time, you can't take it because it's his' (ie I wnat to reinforce the idea that the toy is dc1, you can't force him to share whilst at the same time, sending the message that it is OK and safe to share his toys).

Lying and showing off is something that you would want to tackle anyway, but might also be a good opportunity for to teach your ds how to deal with people who act like this (I am sure he will find lots of them at school!).

And most importantly, when they have an argument, I let them sort it out with my help. eg I will make them explain one at the time what is thr problem on their pov wo using that as excuse to say how awful the other is. Just stick to facts (I want X and dc2 wants Y). Then I will summurize the situation (sometimes putting it in a slightly different way so that the issue becomes clearer - if I am wrong they can tell me so) and ask for solutions. Each of them try to come up with some ideas (no judgement on whether they are good or not is allowed!), I might add one or two and then I let them decide what would be their solution.
It has the huge advantage that everyone has the opportunity to air their feelings and feel heard. Then to come up with solutions themselves.
As time went on I found that I had to intervene less and less and both dc were more flexible.

HTH

It does thank you. DS1 wants to stay here while I do errands but I think he is too young. I want to get the food shopping as soon as Waitrose opens and then go and get DD and get on with the day. DH is hoping to come home early as he is already at work but early might mean half 5 so not massively. Just heard footsteps from upstairs so at least he is up.

Listen to maryz.

Separate them, or tell them to fight where you can't hear them. I put my 3 outside at Christmastime when they were fighting. I said they could come in when they had finished their argument.

A lot of it is about attracting your attention.

Equally, if they are separated, then they can't be physically violent to each other. (Which I agree is when you don't want to just leave them to it)

I also have a rule about violence, that it is unacceptable. I don't hit them, they don't hit/scratch/punch/kick each other.

But never try to adjudicate their arguments.

If they come to tell you about how they have been mistreated, listen and empathise. "oh, I bet that made you angry!" they can then talk it out, and work out how to solve a problem for themselves.

It's really hard, I know. But most people get over it, eventually, particularly if their parents don't take sides. (But we all know of cases where grown up children are still resentful of the way they are played off against each other by parents.)

I once locked them in the garden but then they were so loud I had to bring them in because of the neighbours.

Unfortunately they have been smacked a few times so they throw that in my face.

There is one thing. I don't think you can leave childsren to solve their problems on their own wo first teaching them out to do it.
They become so fixated on what is right for them that they are unable to see the other pov which is the only way to solve a problem. Then everything gets out of hand, ue for using hands, feet, screaming match etc...

Hence the fact I have spent so much time being the intermediate to solve the problem (but NOT solving the problem for them) before I could let them getting on with it.

Re hitting, I would just tell them they are right (because they are!). That you should never have done that. That you really appologize for it and will never ever do it again and from now on the rule for all members of the house is 'No Hitting!'. Then stick to it.

I think I was particularly vile to my (2 years) younger sisiter from about this age. It's a hard age and, as I was generally seen as pathetic and seriously uncool amongst my peers and the shitty kids on the bus, I think I took a lot out on her.

It's also when you're trying to find out who you are, and a sibling will always cramp your syle by ither being around too much or being a constant reminder that you are not who you think you are/want to be.

We used to physically fight, I remember lots of fights on the landing ,where mum couldn't see us.

We got on better as I got older, although I was always a bit narked that my friends liked her so much, so she was included in stuff we did. Interestingly, none of my friends had a younger sister.

As adults, we get on well, although we have had to be separated on numerous nights out because we get very involved in whatever we're arguing about - but that's because we both have strong opinions.

We have been home 10 minutes.

ds1 and 2 have been winding up DD.

She is in tears and answering me back.

What joy.

DS1 has just shouted at me that DD is making up lies.

DD has screamed at me that I can't make her stay in her room and tidy it and the boys keep coming out.

I am trying to have breakfast..

At the moment they are in their rooms while I get straight. They don't have anything electrical in their rooms.

DS2 just came down to ask if he could come down and 5 minutes ago he stuck a note under the door saying I Love You Mummy..