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Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

Original poster

Sensitive question about H

709 replies

ThreeLittlePandas · 14/03/2012 11:52

I've been putting off asking this because I'm scared of what your answers might be. I'm really evaluating my relationship with h atm and wondering wether to leave him and I think the answer to my question might heavily influence my decision.

Blush in advance.

Dh and I rarely have sex. When we do it is rather boring but he is considerate.

The other evening I went to bed early as I was desperately tired. I was woken a few hours later my dh who had his fingers in me. I was heavily asleep and by the time I realised what was happening he was having sex with me. He finished quickly and that was it. I really hadn't wanted to have sex and feel like I wasn't given an option. The next day I felt a bit angry and almost violated to be honest.

I'm not looking for anything other than an opportunity to talk this through because it's been bothering me. This is about the third time in the last couple of years that something like this has happened.

OP posts:
oikopolis · 14/03/2012 16:23

having sex with someone when they haven't clearly consented is rape.

if the victim ends up feeling like actually, it was OK, even though they didn't consent out loud/visibly, they liked it and it was no problem, then the rapist is lucky, because presumably the victim is not going to report them. but that doesn't make them a non-rapist.

having sex with your wife/partner/whoever without her consent is a russian roulette game, sorry.

yes she may be fine with it, but it is a very dangerous emotional and legal game to play. sensible and loving men DO NOT take those types of risks.

end of.

OP i am sorry this has happened to you. it is such a violation. like others have said if he had never done it again after the first instance, that would be different -- perhaps he needed educating etc. but to carry on...

GeekCool · 14/03/2012 16:24

But if you're asleep, you can't tell him not to. Is it still rape?

Can't believe I just read this! We do not exist in a state of presumed consent ffs. Honestly, I'm so Angry at that comment.

Bongobaby · 14/03/2012 16:29

solid I agree that had this been a loving partner they could be forgiven if not repeated.thats the first time,but op has told him at least three more times.this to me sounds like a proper unremorseful control freak. I didn,t like what happened to me and therefore did not give him any chance to repeat it again. like you say,not a loving partner,not a good man,selfish dangerous arshole.
But he may of twisted her head up with all of this and she may be feeling that its his right to do so.which it is not.

oikopolis · 14/03/2012 16:30

yes for those of you who have never realised this before:

Legally and morally, there is no such thing as "presumed consent". You can't "presume" someone wants to have sex with you just because they are married to you/shagging you/nice to you/female/a gay man/wearing short shorts/asleep/drunk.

Consent is just that: consent. It is saying yes. It's not "not-saying-no".

So yes. If a man has sex with you when you are unable to say no, IT IS RAPE.

If a stranger mugs you and you don't scream at the because you're too afraid, is it "not-mugging"?

If a stranger burgles you while you're asleep, is it "not-burglary"?

Try to actually think things through before you say/believe them, ffs

BlackCatsAndPurpleDogs · 14/03/2012 16:34

I had not realised she has already had this out and told him not to do it.
Having learned that, my advice is to leave.

HereIGo · 14/03/2012 16:38

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Whobuilt · 14/03/2012 16:40

I'm glad it is so clear cut for some of you as it seems a few of us are thick twats that know nothing! Hmm
OP it's your life, your marriage, maybe talking this through with someone anonymously would help you massively, please find the courage to reach out for some help/advice, it must feel like your world has imploded. I hope you find your way through all of this xx

AnyFucker · 14/03/2012 16:41

WB, nobody has said anybody is a thick twat.

Bongobaby · 14/03/2012 16:42

oikopolis- is oral sex/fingers inside you classed as rape or sexual assualt when the other person is asleep? clarification?

Whobuilt · 14/03/2012 16:44

I think it has been implied a few times actually. Nothing like making people feel stupid because they don't know whether there husband is abusive or not. I'm off, can't deal with this. Biscuit

oikopolis · 14/03/2012 16:49

In England and Wales it's a sexual assault. In some other countries (including my own) it's rape.

wikipedia says:

the Sexual Offences Act 2003 defines "sexual assault" as when a person (A)

    intentionally touches another person (B),
    the touching is sexual,
    B does not consent to the touching, and
    A does not reasonably believe that B consents.

in this case of course the H could def be prosecuted for assault because the OP has already told him three times that she doesn't consent. so he can't reasonably believe she consents

PullUpAPew · 14/03/2012 16:49

oikopolis yes this is a good way to explain it - not being aware does not make it a non-crime.

Charbon · 14/03/2012 16:50

Bongobaby if a person hasn't consented to it, that would be "assault by penetration" which is still a serious sexual offence, but it is not classified as rape.

See this link to Rape Crisis re definitions

fabwoman · 14/03/2012 16:54

It strikes me that the people who are struggling to accept the OP was raped by her husband or feel he woke her for sex need to think about what he would have done would he have finished before the OP woke up. Would he have said It was lovely the sex we had last night, wifey wasn't it? Very loving. Still think she consented? Still think wasn't rape?

AnyFucker · 14/03/2012 16:56

WB we will be here if you need to chat again. Take care x

oikopolis · 14/03/2012 16:58

Whobuilt if you're flouncing because of me, please realise that the reason i get indignant about people talking blithely about how men can presume consent for xyz reason is because there are women reading this thread who have been raped, and when we bleat approvingly about rape myths, we are telling them that their rape never happened

i don't think the OP is stupid for not thinking her H is abusive, i think she is in shock and i have tremendous sympathy and compassion for her.

i have less compassion for people who perpetuate myths about consent and rape

Bongobaby · 14/03/2012 17:00

when you are with an abusive partner you don,t see it as that at the time because you have been worn down by this behaviour and think its normal at the time also. to be violated in this way is a shock that it has happened. i did not at think that him wanting a bit whilst i was asleep was consentual on my part neither does littlepanda think its ok thats why she posted here.thats not nice whobuilt.

foolonthehill · 14/03/2012 17:01

still...????still...???? some people are still failing to see that the OP had SAID NO ALREADY?????

Op hope that there is some good support for you here. Really feel for you. Hope you are ok

Bongobaby · 14/03/2012 17:06

fool- she had no chance to say no as she was asleep. only after did she say no three times of telling him.I just think that it should not of happened full stop.its a total violation and something that has made me feel sick to my stomach that another person can do this.i,ve never looked at it as a sexual assault before because I have felt ashamed.

dollymixtures · 14/03/2012 17:11

OP so sorry to read this, so sorry there are other women minimising the violation you feel. Hope you can get your head together to really think about what it means - you really aren't being dramatic or hysterical. For the record DP and me have been together 15 years, have a slightly 'out there' sexual life and he would never in a million years do this.

Curious George et al you might want to have a look at the webchat with the Director of the CPS that MN had this week. He is very clear what rape is and what consent means.

QuietNinjaLamp · 14/03/2012 17:11

Whobuilt no one on this thread thinks you're stupid. I think some people are getting cross with those who say it's not clear cut rape when op has already said she didnt give consent and it's getting mixed up with your replies too. Maybe start your own thread to talk thru your feelings? I hope you're ok and I hope op is ok too.

PooPooInMyToes · 14/03/2012 17:20

Those who perpetuate myths about rape i feel need educating. I understand that some find their opinions offensive but perhaps their ideas come from things that have happened in their own lives.

Shit that made sense before i started tying!

NarkedPuffin · 14/03/2012 17:29

'But if you're asleep, you can't tell him not to. Is it still rape?'

YES

If you are unconscious you can't consent. Because you're unconscious.

Some people seem to be looking at this from the point of view that, if you live with a man, they have free rights to your body unless you specify otherwise. That's not how consent works.

AllergicToNutters · 14/03/2012 17:31

i don;t think he is raping her. I think he is taking advantage of her but I really don't think he is raping her.

CailinDana · 14/03/2012 17:32

Why do you think that, Allergic? Genuinely interested. How is "taking advantage" different to rape?

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