Advice please if anyone's up

[losttheflickumdickumagain]

Cant believe I'm asking this, I think I know I'm clutching at straws.

Yesterday I found an old mobile in my husbands van (I never usually go I there). There were literally loads of calls made, as many as 10 a day up until 5:20 (he gets home around 5:45) I rang the number and a woman answered.

We have 3 dc's aged 5 and under. My world has just dropped from under my feet.

He's smashed the phone in temper, and he's saying someone at works been using it for the last couple if weeks. He swears he's not been having an affair.

I am clutching at straws aren't I?

Lost, I think PP is right. My experience was similar, although it didnt seem to involve a face to face affair.

What is the same is that my h denied for 5 and more years that the photos of women I kept fining on his computer were anything to do with him- accidental downloads with music etc etc.

He didnt admit all until I was planning actively to leave him, and then only after a month at Relate.

To this day, I dont know whether I have the full story, though he swears I do. What is certain, is that even after the post Relate big reveal, I puzzled out enough to force him to admit more over the next fortnight, because I would not give up.

Any doubts in your mind will certainly grow, over time. I used to go a year at a time pushing down a small nagging doubt, because like pp I couldnt prove or be sure. Then I would look again, eg if we had a week of rows or tension, and find another half naked young girl photo.

What was worse, I could not understand during this time why he was so withdrawn and distant (which caused most of the rows) and why our sex life slipped and he hardly ever came to bed. He usually blamed me eg complaining. And as you can see, he was lying all that time.

It's awful isn't it? Why can't people just be truthful? Even if it hurts. I hate lies. I'm the worst liar in the world. I'm a proper foot in mouth sort of person, can't seem to hold my own water. That's actually one of the things h has always said he loves about me .

He's done nothing but cry on and off all weekend. I'm not even having digs really (okay, a few), but he'll say something, and because he's not getting the response he wants, it's setting him off. I'm just feeling a bit detached. He's either an amazing actor, or he really does love me and never ever wanted to leave. I think it's a bit of both.

I'll admit a small part of me thinks we should try and get through this, we really did have something once, and for the dc's. It seems unfair on them for me to not try, but at the same time, I don't know if I want him anymore . I keep pushing him, I think it's because I want to see how low and nasty he'll get, but I don't suppose that would come until I actually make him leave.
He's looked into relate already.

Just still plodding along really. I know I'll have to decide soon,

Lost... you're doing brilliantly. You have your hands full enough with your DCs and you just don't need this crap from your husband.

He's trying to pull your strings - or just being plain weak - and either way, if he can't hold it together and stop blubbing in front of your DCs then he must go and stay somewhere else where he can give way just as he likes.

You don't have to decide anything soon - the ball is in YOUR court, you decide your timetable to suit you, not him. I think a free half an hour chat with a solicitor would give you some insight into what your next steps could be. I think that you really must stop focusing on HIM, he's doing that enough as it is - focus on your and the DCs and don't let him wheedle and manipulate you into ANYTHING. You will decide what you're doing when you're good and ready and not before.

I think it would also be a good thing for him to do his own cooking, washing and for you to take some time out with friends and for him to look after the DCs. You need a break, away from this. If he can't even manage to look after his children to give you a break then he's no use to you in any format.

Best wishes to you and your DCs, Lost, they're very lucky to have you in their corner. xx

He's blubbing rocodile tears, honey, and the only person he's feeling sorry for is himself - not for what he's done but for getting found out.

You don't have to play by his rules but if he has any intenton of making your marriage work, he has to play by yours.

18 months ago he received a text photo of a naked woman? The lying twunt has been deceiving you for years and you're best advised to make it clear to him that unless he reveals the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth with regard to his various deceits and probable adultery, he can go to Relate alone while you head off to a solicitor who specialises in divorce and family law.

A free half an hour initial consultation with such a lawyer will be sufficient to convince you - and him - that you have options that do not include staying in a relationship with a proven liar who has chosen to put his need for self-gratification above the needs of his wife and dc.

If he really wants you back, then he has got to tell the truth and do all the hard work necessary - instead he is just sitting around trying to manipulate you with his blubbing. This behaviour is very selfish, he has no thought for you or the DC, all he can think about is himself and how he will get his own way - just like a child.

Tell him to man up and grow up.

Crying is manipulative. My h cried and denied at Relate, after Relate, and between weekly sessions.

Then he realised that my suspicions would just not go away. Actually, I think he was quite stunned that I was finally so strong, and unable to be manipulative.

After a month I got three versions in one night, the last of which was much nearer the truth, although not all of it. He was busting his ass to avoid telling me that the conversations were all sexual in nature, and that his 'hobby' was seeking them out.

So my experience is definitely that tears are tears of stress, fear, anxiety, self pity etc. They tell you alot about his emotional state, but you cant draw any references from them in terms of whether you have the truth or not.

Five you're so much stronger than me. Can I ask why you stayed together? Did you think you could work it out?

I just feel like screaming today. I want to shake it out of him. Deep down, now I'm calmer, I know he loves me, and wants us to be together. He's made a huge mistake, and he's petrified now. But what I don't understand, is why he's continuing to be such a coward, and won't tell the truth. How much bloody worse can it get?!

Sorry, I know you all keep telling me why. I'm just frustrated.

He hasn't been crying in front of the dc's. I'd lamp him if he did.

And my dd has taken a couple of steps this morning without holding on to anything cocky little article .

Just want to thank everyone again for your support and advice on here. I think I would have felt truly lost and alone without all of you this week.

Oh that's brilliant about your dd, how lovely that she's reached such a milestone during such a horrendous time!
As far as your husband is concerned, I really feel for you (haven't posted before as I didn't feel I could say anything that would make you feel any better, contrary to other people on here) and very much hope that, whichever way this pans out, you'll find peace in your heart again, eventually.

Thank you jokat . She's my little rock at the minute, always got a toothy grin .

Why did we stay together?

It had to get to the point where I knew I didnt care any more. Relate was an accident, actually. I had moved out of the bedroom formally and seen a solicitor, which he knew. Prior to that, about 4 or 5 weeks earlier, we had had a whole lot of talks and he was committed for the first time to accept responsibility for mending the relationship- he had made a reasonable effort for three weeks, and then I found more photos, the first in over a year, and they were very recent- the week before. We discussed for over a week and he behaved as your h has, denying all etc. I would not let it drop. The fact we were supposed to be on a fresh start made it worse.

Then we had a minor row over his shitty issue involving the kids, where he was completely unsupportive. I snapped and moved rooms, and stopped talking to him. I intended to split, and HE KNEW IT THIS TIME. That was the key thing- he knew damn well that I had had enough, and I think he was scared. He tried to talk to me and butter me up, and got nowhere. It shocked him.

Relate happened to call a couple of days later quite by chance, as I had called them for an appointment a month earlier, when we had our original fresh start. I had quite forgotten about them by then.

We agreed to go, but still didnt talk at all until we got there. I listed all my complaints, including the infidelity. He denied it. But he only spent one week, to my amazement, denying anything else. All the bullshit he had given me over the years, and all the ignoring my complaints, fell away. He was in tears for nearly a month, and admitted a whole lot of crappy behaviour towards me.

Finally, we had enough to be able to talk, and I made it clear both to him and the Relate guy that I could not commit unless he admitted what I knew in my gut to be true. He didnt really have a choice, although he did say that when he told me he thought I would leave him, but that at least he would have given me that. I think it took the relate process to enable him to be willing to see it that way, as the counsellor had got him to doo alot of thinking about his manipulative and prevaricative behaviour generally.

The only reason I stayed is that he bust his ass to change from that day on (5 November last year), and for four months he has been a changed man. He agreed that it was not my fault, and that whatever the problems in the relationship, he had been at least 50% responsible for them. That his response (re other women) was wrong and shitty, and that he had tried to control me and hold all the cards in his hand. That many of his problems stemmed from long term workaholism, and poor stress management as a result. He committed to sort this out, and has to date.

I know that many people on here feel I should have left. I didnt. However, I WAS making serious preparations to leave, and would have, which made all the difference. We were not talking at all outside the Relate process until he admitted all, so he had no way to control my emotions.

Hope that helps.

You're engaged in a 'work in progress' five and I wish you luck with creating a masterpiece.

If you want the truth, lost, you'll have to be as intransigent and implacable as five was to get it.

Prepare for the long-haul, honey. Your eventual destination is likely to be far more rewarding than one you've arrived at after a short hop.

For a marriage to work both must want to work at it. It is so sad (and I know it) when it's only one sided. :(

Lost, you must not give in. If you do, he will never change.

He may never get better, but the only chance of it happening is if he wants to.

Five thank you for your reply, and being so frank and honest.

Deep down I know that that's the only thing that would work here too. He's never going to tell me the truth, I know that. I think maybe if I tell him to go, it might eventually come out, but to be honest I'm not sure it ever would. I think he's just going to carry on going on about the injustice of all this, since 'nothing happenend' .

I took the boys to football tonight, and he turned up and is acting like everything's okay. I can't be bothered trying to talk any more. When the boys go to school tomorrow, my mums given me an advice number to ring.

Hi Lost - you sound so strong and together although I know you probably feel like crumbling inside when you start thinking about the details of what you've been through in such a short time. I totally agree with other posters about the crying thing - the worse thing for me was when he cried. I was so used to putting him back together if he ever came up against any problems that when he showed that vulnerability, it took all my strength not to reach out and make it better for him. Of course, being angry helped which is why I've recommended you keep hold of that anger for now!

It must be so hard to look at him when you want to shake him and scream at him to sit down and tell you the truth. Unfortunately as Five's very enlightening post shows that's something you have to rely on him to do - nothing you can do will make him be honest with you. In the meantime, just withdraw yourself from him - not to hurt him but to protect yourself from the fallout of his emotions. I think he's crying and getting angry because he's scared - petrified even. There's no injustice - even with the little you know it's enough for you to go batshit crazy. He's banging on about how hard done by he is because somehow he's convinced himself that he's done nothing wrong and he's doing his very best to convince you of that too. It's as if he thinks if he beats you enough with that metaphorical hammer eventually you will give in and say "there there it's alright".

But it's not ok - you're not okay. Put aside the possibility that he physically cheated on you for a minute. What you discovered is that he went to the trouble of purchasing a sim card, took an old phone and set it up in his work van solely for the purpose of carrying on an emotional relationship with another woman behind his wife's back. That alone is enough for you to question the very basis of your relationship. Don't be swayed into thinking that if he provides an explanation for that deceit, it will suddenly make it all better. It won't - nothing will remove that betrayal of your relationship with him. The fact that you values your inability to lie is even more telling. If the situation was reversed, he would be incapable of dealing with it, let alone carrying on with family life as if nothing had happened.

I'm glad you're seeking outside help. One of the things I did at the time of discovery is spend half an hour with a divorce lawyer. It absolutely shook H to the core. He could not imagine that I would ever take it that far but although I did it to frighten him, it did allow me to realise that there was life without him and in a way that helped because I knew that I stayed because I wanted to, not because I was compelled to. That feeling of helplessness - as if everything is just happening to you and you're trapped in this horrible alternate reality where nothing is as you planned it - you must fight that. Planning a future without him is one way of taking control, even if you're not ready to take the actual step. Be brave lovely - you can do it.

Lost, great news that you are talking to someone- sounds like you are ready to start forming a plan on what you want for yourself and the dc's.

IME having a plan makes the process more bearable, because you have something to work on that is about you and not him. It makes you feel as though you have some control over what happens to you, rather than feeling as though you're being dragged through it.

You are strong enough for whatever you decide is next- you don't have to do it all at once, just one thing at a time.

Lost, you are in such a tough place right now.

You dont believe him, and he wont change his story.

If you just carry on, the doubt and disbelief you feel now is going to poison everything, no matter how hard you try to let it go. The thing is, he is allowing you to see by his actions that saving his own reputation is far more important to him than whether you drag this around in your head for years, hurting, suspicious and miserable.

If you did plan to stay with him, he is denying you the opportunity to look at the real problems in the relationship, if there are any, and fix them. I know this is true, as we had a number of 'fresh starts', as we limped along after the infidelity started, but HE WAS NEVER FULLY COMMITTED TO THEM. Why would he be- he knew what was really happening in his life, and I didnt. I was committed, and it made me miserable.

I regret more than anything that I wasted 5 years of my life putting up with behaviour which was never going to change whilst we went on like this- his withdrawing, no family time, his workaholism, poor sex life, etc etc. I became ill in the last two years and developed cellulitis 6 times, due to stress, I think.

Please do take control, let him see you mean business, and dont let him put yourself and ultimately your kids where I allowed myself to be put.

I've phoned a couple of solicitors this morning. I need to go into town to see them. Easier said than done with these three . I told h, and he seems angry.

Sorry, I'm very wobbly today. I've been trying to lose myself in mum stuff, but it's kept coming and smacking me in the face all day today . Still can't seem to get my daft head around it.

On the plus side, ds2 is much better at nursery, and ds1 has had a friend over for tea, so happier boys .

Of course he seems angry - you're not dancing to his tune or acting according to his hackneyed script.

You see, he really did think that all he had to do was shed a few tears, swear it's you he really loves, promise to never do it again, and you'd fall for it agree to forgive and forget, and he'd be home free.

To date, all he's learned is the need for taking greater care to keep his future infidelities under wraps.

If you keep standing firm, you'll see his true nature and no prizes for guessing that it won't be a pleasant sight.

Well done you - way to go, gal! Keep up the good work!

He seemed angry? At you phoning a solicitor? I'd bet the anger is really a type of fear, at what might be a big change for him! Stay strong, take control and maybe the fear might resolve into the truth. It'll be the last resort, I bet.

Take it one day at a time, honey. You're in the driving seat and you get to choose the speed.

You've had a massive shock and it will take months to process all of the feelings that have been, and will be, engendered by his duplicity and deceitfulness.

NONE of this is your fault and you need to put yourself and your needs first and foremost.

Hi Lost - sorry you feel a bit low today. I'm going to play Mummy and tell you to stop putting yourself down. Your head isn't "daft" - your H is (although I can think of a few stronger words for it). The problem with sticking to the routine with children is that although it keeps our hands and body busy, our mind can still run riot. Nothing you can do will stop this - in fact the more you try to put it to the back of your mind, the more it will play silly buggers and take over.

The best thing I found was to put some time aside to think about it - maybe when DD's napping and the other two are busy watching tv playing! Get yourself a pen and paper or better still use the pc to write up lists. I love lists! I listed all H's bad points, all the things I wanted from my life in the next ten years, all the things I wanted from H that he never gave me, all the questions I had in my mind. Write whatever you want down and then save it (or put it away if it's on paper) and know that you gave yourself the space and time to worry so you can always go back to the worry if you need to but when you're with the kids, it stays where it is - in a draw or on the pc.

The other thing I want to tell you off (a little bit) for is telling your H you're going to see a solicitor. I think I know why you did it though - are you still trying to thrash everything out with him? Maybe I'm wrong but a good friend (from MN actually!) told me to withdraw completely. Emotional withdrawal is the best defence from all the haranguing from H but it's also the best way to ensure that he is the one on the back foot, not you. It's hard though, I won't lie. H's response to my emotional withdrawal was initially anger and he would follow me around trying to get a rise out of me. I would mentally count to ten or do whatever I needed to block him out. I don't mean ignore him totally - that would be childish I mean just block out all the emotional blackmail and handwringing. Short sharp answers to practical questions and nothing else. Don't show your hand, don't tell him what you're thinking - he doesn't deserve that privilege of being inside your head for now. He needs to earn it and the only way he'll do that is by being honest, whenever he's ready.

I hope I haven't spoken out of turn but honestly, I only want you to find a way to heal without pandering to his every emotional whim and need. You need time and space and he's not going to volunteer that for you - you need to take it as forcibly as you can. If you have to share a home with him then your private space should be sacred - clear his stuff out if your room (regardless of whether or not he sleeps there). When the kids are asleep, take a long bath and lock the door. Get yourself a stonking good book from the library so you don't have to watch TV with him - you get my drift!

So far as the solicitor's concerned, since there's no urgency, you can book a time that's convenient for you i.e. when the boys are at school and nursery. Hopefully the solicitor will be used to dealing with small kids but take a small blanket for DD and some toys so you can put her on the floor while you chat. Write up a list (!) of the questions you want to ask beforehand - no doubt your mind will go blank when you get in there (I know mine did!).

Remember, the solicitor will be well used to dealing with people in your situation so he/she will understand if you feel emotional or need to take a deep breath every once in a while. You might find it useful to have some info to hand before you go - an approximate value of the home, the up to date mortgage figure (including any redemption penalty), your income via cb and/or tc and his income for the last tax year, the value of any pensions and any other assets for both of you.

Right - I'll stop wittering! Hopefully I speak for other posters when I say we're all sending you some MN love to get you through - be strong and if you feel yourself slipping, give him a kick in the nuts!

Oh shitting bugger - I just remembered I namechanged for another thread - it's PP by the way

Lost, I have nothing helpful to add apart from that I agree with everything Paranoid ancient :0 and other posters have said today :).

Especially the bit about not trying to keep it to the back of your mind- it won't stay there and it's bloody tiring trying to push it back all the time.

Hoping tonight has a little quiet time for you.