how could he :(

[chocoraisin]

I've just come 'home' after staying with my parents for a month, having found out about the OW the week after NY. I'm 17 weeks pg, with an 18mo DS.

So I'm back at the place I have shared with H for nearly 4 years, and our neighbours (who are lovely and devastated on mine and DS's behalf) brought me pizza for tea to be supportive. I stupidly asked them if she had been seen here. H has sworn blind he wouldn't do anything in our home. I know I shouldn't have asked, think I was stupid enough to be looking for reassurance.

Apparently they regularly see her leaving in the morning in the month I've been away. AND heard them having sex. My neighbour could have sugar coated it, but to be fair, I asked and she was so embarrassed and upset for me I know it was one of those 'oh god she put me on the spot, crap I'll just blurt it out' moments, not said to hurt me.

We share a one bed flat. He has had sex with her in our bed. Next to our sons cot. Below our wedding photo on the wall. And she knows I'm pregnant.

How could he? Never mind what kind of a skank she must be to be ok with that. He has been texting/calling this month acting like we can be instant best friends... and perfect 'coparents'... but my trust in him is shattered. I hate the thought of being near him. I literally feel sick about having no option but to sleep in that bed tonight.

I don't know what to do :( I just need some hand holding tonight please.

To top it off, DS is exhausted but after a month away won't settle in his cot and just shrieks when I put him down so I'm looking at another long, broken night. 'Daddy' is due to visit tomorrow for his contact time.

I can't believe what's happened to my life :(

I'm not sure that the intention to spend time together is actually the best for the dc - I think you will find it more stressful than letting them go off - and I don't think in the long run it will benefit the dc particularly. I think it's better for your ds to get used to seeing his dad separately. And when you have the two, you will need downtime.

I think your fear that he will want to go 50/50 is pretty unlikely - it would cramp his style with the OW, to put it bluntly.

Don't bend over backwards and put yourself under pressure to 'get over it' by a certain date - which is what this plan seems to be to me.

Sorry x-posted

have I said totally the wrong thing then?

No, I see your point. I think I was thinking of when the baby is a bit older.

I don't think I'd expect him to take the baby and ds to start with - just see the baby and then take ds out to begin with. It just sounds bloody awful to me to be sitting in a pool cafe.

Hey choco.. you need to do what feels right for you and if spending the odd afternoon with H and your boys felt like the right thing to say then don't second guess yourself.. you are trying to do your best by your boys when all's said and done..
I dunno maybe other posters will disagree with me here but it's not like you're going 'oh, hey, all's forgiven let's hang out!' It just seems to me you're looking to find a little middle ground.

lol fair enough, and I haven't got the faintest idea what I'll be up for at the time. Really the conversation today was just about both of us getting some ideas together to discuss before the actual situation comes along. So it's not a case of H rocking up saying 'I am taking them here' and me saying 'no you're bloody not'. In some ways I think if we discuss some ideas before hand, I will prob feel better about him going off doing his own thing anyway.

In the event, I expect he'll spend 'out' time with DS1 as usual, and we'll build up to him having 'out' time with both of them over the summer. But DS1 will need a lot more running around time, and if H and DS1 go out all the time without DS2 (as you can't take a 2yo and newborn swimming on your own for example, and that's pretty much the sum of H's ideas right now for activities) then I wonder how he'll ever get to grips with having both...

I will def be calling on SIL and MIL to help out as time goes on if needs be. I guess a lot depends on the breastfeeding situation and confidence really.

I'm worrying about coming off like a control freak though now :(

You're right, NKM.

x-post with nobodyknowsme - that's what I was going for, a middle ground while we all get used to having two boys instead of one. I'll need help to learn how to cope with both so I don't expect him to just magically know how to do it when he's not around them all the time...

You don't so much sound like a control freak as someone overly concerned with being perceived as reasonable.

Why did you choose to have this conversation when your FIL was there?

You were with two men who have walked out on young families for other women, and that's when you decided to have a big chat about how you'd manage a new baby with the man who walked out on you while pregnant?

Sorry, I'm not trying to get at you at all, it's just what struck me when I read your thread earlier.

You seemed motivated by fear and a desire to seem like the bigger person, rather than by what was best for you.

Bending over backwards to be accommodating of someone who has proven themselves not to give the first fuck about your welfare, or that if your children, doesn't seem sensible to me.

You have to do the minimum required to make sure your xH has contact with the sons he values so little, but it is not your job to sort things out so that you (plural!) all get used to the new family set up.

You aren't a family anymore, there is no "we" to get used to things.

Just you.

This fucker is going to take full advantage of anything he can get from you, but don't for a minute think that he will then think he owes you decency or fairness in return.

If he was that kind of guy, you wouldn't be living in your parents house about to become a single mother to two boys while he moves another woman into your home.

Apols again for plain speaking.

Getting to grips with two bundles of fun is going to take getting used to for both of you, so I think a 'play it by ear' tactic might have to be your starting point. If you choose to breastfeed I can't see how H will be able to spend a lot of 'out' time with DS2 to start with (unless you express..i'm rubbish at that btw, even with a good pump lol.)
It makes sense that by the time baby arrives you've managed to reach some kind of reasonable middle ground ie he could have 'out' time alone with DS1 then in order to bond with DS2 maybe the spending an afternoon together plan could come into action..and then as time goes on when he's used to the wants and needs of a young baby and a toddler he can venture out with them both (soft play area for DS1 while DS2 is in the pram??) I dunno..just ideas you've probably already been mulling over yourself..
As hard as it is I totally think you've got it right trying to be reasonable about H seeing your boys..from now on the only relationship you have with him is for their benefit..that doesn't mean you have to be best buddies..but if he fucks it up you get to hold your head up high and say 'I did my very best to facilitate a good relationship between my boys and their dad" and your boys will be proud of you for that

NKM thank you - that's basically what I was thinking. I'm not trying to be seen as reasonable, I'm trying to be reasonable... and yes, it's about self protection as well as what's best for the boys. I don't want to be put through the wringer again if I can pre-empt some of the shittyness that will be coming my way.

athinginyourlife I see where you're coming from, but FIL wasn't in the conversation, or party to it - he was having a cup of tea in another room with my dad. It was only me and H, very informal in the kitchen while making a drink and finishing up feeding DS. We didn't sit down or anything like that - it was prob 10 mins if that, thinking about it.

I know it's not my job to make H be a good dad, or to take part in things, but I do think it's my job to feel ok with anyone (including H) who is going to swan off with my babies without me. If I never spend time with him plus the kids I'll be dying of anxiety not knowing if he can remember how to burp a newborn or if he's brought DS1s inhaler (asthma) with him. Or whether he is handing them off to OW or anyone else (he has form for this) instead of actually bothering to learn how to look after them. So really that's not about bending over backwards for him, it's about putting myself at ease... I don't know. I think I'm overthinking it now

I'm so sorry. Hugs to you OP, and you will get through this. xx

ATIYL..I think choco knows exactly what her H is without being reminded.. and I don't think she's bending over backwards to accommodate, she's just trying to look ahead to what she knows will come once she has DS2, as much for her own self respect than anything.

Her DS1 obviously adores his daddy (yes, we know choco's H is a fuckwit and quite honestly doesn't deserve those two beautiful little boys or choco's help in spending time with them) but my ex didn't look back after walking out on me and my 2 year old whilst I was pregnant. My dd1 doted on him..imagine how hard it was to explain to a 2 year old that daddy didn't want her or mummy or bump anymore??? At least choco doesn't have to go through that on top of everything else.
He has put her through hell and back and she shouldn't have to give him the time of day or an ounce of her effort but she is because her little boy wants to see his daddy. And ultimately making her little boy happy makes her happy.

Choco, if you think the approach you suggested works out for you and the kids then it can't be wrong. You certainly don't come across as a control freak, just someone who feels more comfortable having some plans in place to make things easier. Did your H come up with any good ideas? As you say, only having a plan A is very poor and he needs to know that.

The canoe did see some great outings, but was left behind when my family emigrated and donated to a friend. He's made a few more in Oz though, which is where I plan to raise my children

AThing, I can totally see where you're coming from, but Choco does always mention the children during these exchanges. You are right that she should make no concessions whatsoever to her H, but his needs and those of the kids are often not mutually exclusive. As long as she can separate the two during these conversations then the right course of action will be clearer.

sorry for taking about you in the third person on your own thread choco but I found ATIYL's post a bit..unhelpful to you tbh..I'm all for straight talking but I think mid-wobble when you're second guessing yourself slightly isn't really the best time..

Thanks NKM I'm ok, I think! I guess wobbles pretty much come with the territory... it's so confusing.

Athing don't worry I'm not offended or anything, I know you were being direct so that I don't set myself up to be hurt, I just don't think there is any way to get through this without being hurt sometimes. It's all so fucking complicated. Maybe he will abuse my trust all over again but if he does it will only hurt his own relationship with the kids and my parents/his mum etc all over again. There are no winners here really :(

I suppose I feel really lucky in some ways though (lovely parents, somewhere to live, supportive family etc) so although H is a shit awful H trying to be what he considers a good dad, even if I think he still isn't doing enough/being thoughtful enough/deserving of my/DS's time, I can't ignore how much DS loves to see him. I would hate to stop him from having a dad in his life just because it makes me feel like crap on a cracker to see the stupid git.

beautiful no suggestions yet - just an agreement that when we meet in 4 weeks time we'll table ideas then, instead of waiting til April to broach the subject. We may not agree on anything at all, but there will be time to deal with it before baby is here at least.

I always wanted to emigrate somewhere hot - BIL lives in NZ with his wife and kids, and they look like they have a fab outdoorsy life :)

Choco, I have just read your entire thread. You are an amazing. Seriously you will be OK because you have such an inner strength.

I understand about spending time with the kids together and actually think it is for your DS's and your own peace of mine an incredible thing to spend time occassionally together. Though take it by easy and if it is too hard it will backfire.

Just a little point about DS not sure if you are still telling him that his dad is working, but I would just be completely upfront with a LO that age. Just tell him outright that daddy doesn't love here anymore. He will accept it.

In a couple of years you will be so sorted, your boys have the most fantastic mum.

Choco, my Dad disappeared off out of the blue with my mum's close 'friend' when I was 4. I didn't really understand what was happening at the time and was protected from most of the 'fall out' but I know she was devastated.

I do remember them managing to communicate reasonably about access and be civil to each other at collection and drop off. They came to school and other stuff together, both came to my birthday parties and they drove me to Uni together. At various times in my life when the shit has hit the fan they have got together to sort things out (from grounding me as a teenager to picking up the pieces when I was first broken hearted). As a child it meant a lot to me that they put their differences aside, (mum in particular as she must have wanted to kill him) for me. I felt very loved.

I don't think that this was necessarily the best approach in terms of mum getting over what dad did but IMO it was a very loving and selfless approach and I did and have benefitted from it.

This only worked because Dad put me before his OW (who was a fruit loop who he married for 15 years before seeing sense). She was not a nice woman and did give him grief about the way he coparented but when push came to shove he put me first. He also stuck to his access arrangements (every Thursday day and overnight and every Sunday day and overnight). I'm not sure that H will do this in your situation but I take my hat off to you for giving him the chance.

Obviously my Dad was a complete bastard to leave my mum in this way. I'm aware of his flaws but I do love him very much and we are close.

Mum has never said a bad word about my dad and vice versa which also meant a lot to me. I was well able to work out for myself who was the bigger and better person of the the two.

I realise that every situation is different but wanted to give you my perspective. I'm not trying to suggest that you should be accommodating to H, just that I understand why you did what you did today, and that in some circumstances it can work.

:)

I definitely don't think of you as a control freak and I understand about the issue of the young baby.
Just pointing out something that you might not have considered, when trying to do your best.

It's an issue I have discussed previously with friends about divorced parenting and something that I was told had been advised.

If you are going for counselling, it might be an issue worth discussing, or look up in specific books about parenting when divorced.
Also because previously, you being in close contact with your ex didn't seem healthy for you.
But, ultimately, you should do what you feel comfortable with, of course. :)

"Maybe he will abuse my trust all over again but if he does it will only hurt his own relationship with the kids and my parents/his mum etc all over again. "

No, it could also seriously damage your children and the relationship you have with them.

Being the nice guy gets you lots of people on MN telling you how amazing you are, but it doesn't stop a selfish, vindictive man with a known propensity to blame you for things that are his fault, from making your life really difficult.

I'm not saying to be careful in case you get hurt, I'm saying to always be aware that this guy has no compunction about fucking you over.

Do what you do because it is right for you, and right for your children, but never in the hope that you will get goodwill from him in return.

I don't think for a minute you should stop, or in any way obstruct, you son seeing his father.

I think you are dead right to do whatever you need to do to be able to trust this dreadful man with your children.

I just heard hints that you thought that playing nice now would win you brownie points with him that you could rely on if things get tough in the future, and I'm just saying don't count on it.

You know this man is a liar, that he is peevish, self-obsessed, vain, deluded and prone to blaming you for his own shortcomings as a parent.

No matter how nice you are, he'll still be that person. You can't trust him, and you shouldn't.

Good morning Choco. Your children will benefit most from a happy mummy so you must do what YOU feel is best, whatever that is. Just remember that your ex doesn't have the integrity that you have. The best thing you can do for your children is put your own well being first. If you're ok so will they be. Your ex is big enough and ugly enough to sort his own shit out and he is more than capable of letting you down again. You are a very capable woman and will be just fine.

Bloody hell choco - I have just spent the last couple of hours reading this entire thread with my jaw hanging somewhere round my knees! God knows how many flies I am going to have to pull out of my mouth when the time comes!

Never been through such a shitty experience myself (although came pretty close - cheated on twice in first two pregnancies by foreign hubby living alone in his country) but he was at least remorseful, apologetic, got help and moved heaven and earth to turn his shit around, unlike the piece of human detritus you have had the misfortune to discover you were really married to. I didnt stick around because I was weak or in love - legally I couldnt leave. It`s complicated, in international marriages. It still is, but we work through it, day by day.

Just a few thoughts/opinions/perspectives:

I am also on your cheerleading team now and can shout from all the way over here in Tokyo if you need me to!
You, VB, NKM, and all the others who have gone through this and come out the other side are a total inspiration to all women everywhere as to our strength and survival instincts. I salute you all!
You are an incredible Mum and your boys are going to be SOOOOO happy!
Dont torture yourself for a second about your STBXH having a wonderful new life - he knows what and who he is and every bit of crap he tries to sling at you and simply him trying to make himself feel better - but this I think you already know! Call me spooky but everything happens for a reason and I see the makings of a fabulous, inspirational, wise, future life counsellor in all of this! I am hearing what people are saying and I agree - your reasonableness and effort to do the right thing by your children is incredible and admirable, but dont kid yourself for a second that in return you will be shown any goodwill. He has already more than ably demonstrated his capacity to totally eff you over.
You may not feel it right now, but you have an incredibly bright future ahead of you. You have certain things this utter prick can never take away - many fantastic qualities that previous posters have already noted and admired - me too. Hold on to all those amazing things about yourself because they will b your ticket to the future.
Big big big hugs to you. I am feeling pretty mizzy right now as I am stuck in bloody hospital (nothing too serious we hope, should be out in a couple of days) but reading your story has given me strength to dig deep and get through this godawful treatment and get the hell out of here back to DD DS1 and DS2 8who is on his way in here right now with Daddy and a giant Toblerone - YUM!) so just know that your incredible, inspirational courage is reaching right across here to the other side of the world!!!

Good luck to you babe. Will keep checking th thread for updates and you are in my thoughts (when I am actually conscious after all these IV drugs!!!) ;)

Also, don't forget that OW is highly likely to try and throw a spanner in the works. She will hate to see you and your ex cooperating. She will be deeply suspicious of him, given that she of all people knows exactly what he is capable of. She will not appreciate being excluded from any aspect of his life and will stop at nothing to have things her way. You are now a huge threat to her. And that's if she sticks around. Because if she moves on to her next conquest then your ex will have a huge reality check and likely try to come crawling back.

I'm sorry if that all sounds negative but I feel that this saga is far from over. I'm nearly 2 years on from kicking my ex out for similar misdemeanours. He is still stuck in his own shit and swings from being deeply unhappy to deeply paranoid - last time I collected ds from his pokey rented flat he hid behind a wall in the car park to watch me. WTF?

You are moving on and facing the pain and reality of the awfulness of it all. He hasn't even begun to face up to what he has done. You will leave him behind very very quickly and he will be playing catch up if he even bothers to try. You will always be in the stronger position. He will be happy to lean on your strength and it won't occur to him to reciprocate. I suspect that is how your relationship has always been, even before OW?

sadly I think you are probaby right DP. I've done a lot of thinking over the last couple of days, and thank you all for the advice, concern and reality checks - I appreciate all of it, even the things that are hard to hear! I have no road map for this, and knowing that others have been through similar and survived, despite all the shit that comes our way, does help.

I know I can't predict what H will or won't do, and I can't do anything about the OW either... I will no doubt have a hundred disappointments for every step forward. But I still believe that the only way for me to be true to myself is to keep showing my own faith and commitment to my children. I have two separate things to deal with as far as I see it. 1) moving on from my marriage, and 2) moving forward as a parent. My relationship with H as his wife is over. But our relationship as parents is still barely beginning. I am working daily on separating the two. No matter what H's behaviour means to me as his ex-wife, the children deserve to have the opportunity to know their father. If I open that door, and he doesn't come through it, I can live with that. What I couldn't live with is knowing that I slammed the door closed in his face, because it made me feel better.

I know I am human and I will feel hurt. I know I will cry a lot more and I will feel let down and used and discarded, because I feel that every day already. It is what it is. I've run through so many emotions - I read the diagnostic criteria for a sociopath lately and thought bloody hell, that's the man I married! I've also been in the same room as him and suddenly felt all the reasons why I fell in love with him, even though I know he is a royal scumbag. I feel utterly conflicted a lot of the time. God knows I want to hurt him back sometimes, but at the same time, I hope eventually he will reap what he has sown with, or without my help.

As for the OW, well, she has no idea what she has let herself in for... he's a bloody hard person to live with, and it's not my problem. Besides, if she tries to manipulate things to force herself into spending time with H and our children I can kill that faster by reasoning with him as a 'good parent' than I can by showing it hurts me. His ego is more likely to respond than his conscience (which I doubt actually exists right now). Whatever H told her about me is irrelevant. If she sticks around she'll have to reconcile that with how I actually am, and it will chip away at them both. I hope I am a threat to her. It would be nice for her to know how that feels to be honest. But she's not a threat to me now - the damage is done. She's just a silly girl who is going to have to live with being second best forever. What's he got to offer her? My left-over husband, second hand bed and empty house? The left-over time he has at the weekend, and his left-over money once he's paid for his kids? Lucky girl... and if he treats her as 'first' and lets down his kids because of her, I'm sure she'll feel just as proud of herself then as well. Still, as I keep telling myself... that's not my problem.

I don't know if I'm right or wrong in any of this, but I guess I only have to live with myself... so far I don't regret my own actions. I've not hurt anyone on purpose or even by accident that I know of yet. So far, so good? (If you read that much, have a on me and a Apologies for mammoth post!)