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Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

"But We Took You To Stately Homes!" - Survivors of Dysfunctional Families.

999 replies

singingprincess · 28/01/2012 13:25

There is a word document with all the relevant links which I will try and find, but in the meantime...Post away.

OP posts:
financialwizard · 05/11/2012 09:34

I am sorry I keep posting all this drivel. I feel very alone at the moment with my husband away and I really don't want to discuss my parents in detail with my friends.

IncogKNEEto · 05/11/2012 11:16

I have been thinking about posting on here for a little while but had all the usual doubts that what I see happening in my relationship with my Mum are not serious enough to warrant joining this thread.

I started a thread on MN a few days ago regarding the latest in a long line of interactions with my Mum that have left me feeling lost, and confused as to whether the problem is with me or with my Mum. Opinions on the thread didn?t really help clarify it for me as they were split fairly evenly between people saying that I was rude and childish and they felt sorry for my Mum, and those who seemed to pick up on the manipulative undertones in her messages that I see myself.

Some people recommended that I post here and others said to stay away from this thread. So I am even more confused now, here is my back story hopefully it will provide some insight into whether or not I have a toxic relationship with my Mum and help me manage our relationship better.

Sorry but this will probably be long, but even if no one reads it; I think it will help me to write it all down.

I have always had a difficult relationship with my Mum; as far back as I can remember she has always seemed disappointed in me, and that nothing I do is ever ?good enough?. I have been told from a very early age that she doesn?t know what she did to deserve me, and that I am difficult and awkward.

I have been told that I was an unaffectionate child that never wanted to sit on her lap, unless I was ill. That I made her life harder, that I was an awful stroppy, unhelpful, unpleasant teenager, and that I was always the problem. I have a younger brother who somehow manages to be always in favour, even though he is very busy and doesn?t have time to see Mum much or help her practically (which I do). I get on well with db, and we have discussed the difficulties I have with Mum and he just says that?s how she is, let in wash over me, don?t make it difficult, anything for an easy life basically.

When I was living at home with Mum and db (parents split when I was 8 and divorced when I was 10) I was always in trouble for not doing something right, i.e. the washing up, I had quite a lot of responsibilities at home as my Mum was a single parent and worked fulltime as well as some evenings. Mum was very hormonal and shouty at all times at home, and I usually bore the brunt of her temper, she hit me fairly regularly, with everything from a shoe and a suitcase (!) to a milk bottle that was smashed over the back of my head during a row (about washing up I believe). I may have caused this one though, as we were arguing and she threw the water in the bottle at me (she was watering the plants) and I said ?Happy now?? so she said ?No, but this will make me happy? and smashed the bottle around the back of my head.

I was always frightened of her, felt controlled by her and was very unhappy living at home, especially once I was a teenager. She stopped hitting me when one day when I was about 16, she slapped me across the face, and without thinking about it, I slapped her back and said that that was the last time she would be hitting me. I moved out as soon as I could when I was 17, and have never been back, even now I feel uncomfortable in her house and struggle to sleep if I am there overnight.

I feel that she was a very harsh parent, and that more often than not her punishments were due to her loss of temper rather than me having done anything truly awful. For example, I used to love horses and used to bike to the stables before and after school to help out, but if I had upset her in any way she used to forbid me to go and this would lead me to let down the people I was helping (on one occasion the lady said that I couldn?t help any more because I was unreliable) I used to feel such rage at the injustice of it all, and I think that I probably still have this rage buried deep down.

Recently, I have been spending more time with my Mum and even began to start feeling maybe we could be friends. I have spoken to her about my feelings during my recent separation from and reconciliation with my husband, but I now see this was a mistake. Mum has never liked dh and has been using our chats as a time to tell me how much like my Dad dh is (they do have some similarities, but not necessarily negative ones imo) and that I should have left him years ago, because she would never have put up with him (this is obvious to me, Mum is very rigid and inflexible, I don?t believe compromise is a word she has in her dictionary) she has told me several times that she preferred it when I wasn?t with dh because she saw more of me and I needed her. It?s true, I did ask for help more with the children whilst we were apart, I have depression and I was really struggling on my own, feeling overwhelmed by the responsibility for the three dc on my own.

However, Mum doesn?t behave like a gp to the dc, she continuously ?parents? them, pick, pick, pick at their perceived failings/misbehaviour. I feel that I have allowed this for years and now I have started treatment for my depression, which included some CBT/counselling, for the first time ever I can see how she treats my dc clearly, and I don?t like it. She is very critical of them, to the point that they don?t want to spend time with her anymore, my eldest dd has told me that she thinks I am far more strict and nasty to them when I am with my Mum, and I feel that I do parent like her when I am with her, maybe it?s because I am still looking for her approval? I don?t know, but now I have realised that this is upsetting and damaging to my children, I can?t allow it to continue, but how the hell do I change things?

I have read ?how to talk so children will listen..? and dh and I are working together to do our best to parent our children kindly, fairly and without shouting. It is difficult as I only ever had my Mum?s model to follow, but I am determined to do this for my dc. It seems to be working so far, dh and I are parenting as a team, the children are happier, less defensive and better behaved, but this is while I am not seeing my Mum, I don?t know how to say that she is not allowed to shout at the dc anymore, and that we need to be consistent with discipline.

Previously, when we have used time out in the pushchair for ds (he?s 3) he has been put in the pushchair for 3 minutes, having been told why he is going in there, and then we have spoken to him afterwards, he understands why we have put him in there, he apologises and we move on. Last time the dc stayed over at my Mum?s she put him in the pushchair and kept increasing the time he was in there because he wouldn?t be quiet, and he was in there for 20 minutes! So even when I have explained the methods we use to her, and why, she still thinks she knows better and undermines all our consistency.

I just am not sure where to go from here. I haven?t spoken to my Mum since we fell out (see previous thread) over what we were doing for her birthday, I didn?t ring/text her on her birthday, although I did send a card from us all. I feel guilty for not contacting her (particularly as it was her birthday) but I didn?t think it would be a good idea to speak to her when I still feel so angry and upset with her (I thought it would make the situation worse). Even though I feel guilty, I also feel relieved and peaceful that I haven?t spoken to her at all, I don?t miss the daily phone call with the latest rant from her about what Tesco/her neighbours/the bin men have done, or the subtle put downs and snide remarks about how bad my parenting/life choices are.

Sorry for the me me me essay, and thanks if you?ve got this far, it feels better for having started to type some of it out.

IncogKNEEto · 05/11/2012 11:43

fw sorry I don't have anything useful to say, but I can certainly empathise, especially with the dig, dig, dig for information, which then gets used as a stick to beat you with Sad

I seem to go in circles with my Mum of getting closer and then backing away, I feel like I have to give her the information, but I don't know why when it just causes more problems! I want to get out of the 'all or nothing' situation with regards to what information I choose to share with her, but have no idea how to.

What happens if you do as Salbertina suggests and brush off the questions? What do you think would happen if you just kept repeating a stock response of 'I don't wish to discuss that' and changed the subject? If you don't vary what you say, maybe it won't give her an 'in' to twist you up in knots (and you only have to remember one response iyswim?)

financialwizard · 05/11/2012 13:39

Blimey IncogKNEEto I could also have written your post word for word, except I am an only child. Your last post is exactly what happens with me too.

I have tried the stock one sentence response but she never gives in, it really is like a dog with a bone.

fresh · 05/11/2012 13:52

incognkneeto I didn't want to read and run. This is just my opinion, but from what you say, you do have a toxic mother. Your brother's wish to just keep her happy for an easy life is denial (and much easier for him to say if he's the 'golden child'). You are doing exactly the right thing in using your own more compassionate parenting style for your children.

I'm afraid your Mum is not going to change. It doesn't follow that you therefore just have to put up with her behaviour. It's a very scary thing to confront that, because as children of narcissistic parents we learn early on to try to keep them happy in the hope that they might then be able to love us properly. Sadly, they never do, and we can waste years continually trying to make everything right in a doomed attempt to get the love we should have had as children.

You can break this dynamic, but it takes time and good external help and you will bear the brunt of your mum's anger and possibly your brother's if you rock his comfortable boat. For me, breaking contact was the only way to survive well enough to be able to properly care for my kids and myself. There's help on here and details at the top of the thread on books to read. Take it slowly and take care of yourself - you've already worked out what the problem is so that's the first step.

IncogKNEEto · 05/11/2012 16:40

fresh thank you for taking time to reply to my epic post, it does make me feel sad (and validated too if I'm honest) that someone else can see that it's a toxic relationship.

When I was younger I decided I was never going to have children as they obviously were just an inconvenience and a pain to be around. However, I have now got 3 dc and a dsd!

I have often thought to myself how much I don't want to parent like my mother, but have somehow drifted into doing exactly that, albeit without the physical violence Sad but now my eyes have been opened there is no way that this is going to continue, my dh and I both have difficult mothers and we are determined that our children will not have the sort of upbringing we had.

We have noticed a difference in our dc already, even in the past couple of weeks, but it is hard for both of us to override our learnt instinctive parenting styles. Together though I feel we have a good chance Smile

I have gone no contact with my Mum before for about 7 months, and as far as I can remember it felt so liberating (this was 12 years ago) but the guilt and sense of obligatiend and hope that things would be different ground me down in the end.

IncogKNEEto · 05/11/2012 16:48

fresh the bit in your post about trying to get the love we should have had as children really resonated with me and brought a lump to my throat. That is exactly it, I have spent my whole life trying to get unconditional love from fer and it has never worked, maybe she just isn't capable.

I look at my children and can't believe that anyone could be so cruel to a child, I feel broken.

At least now I have recognised the issue hopefully I can work out a solution with the help of my counsellor. I just want to curl up in a ball and cry 'it's not fair' but I have a responsibility to break this cycle for my children. And I will.

HotDAMNlifeisgood · 05/11/2012 16:57

financialwizard : PLEASE don't call your posts "drivel"! You have been through some pretty appalling treatment, and I am very Sad Angry for you.

Salbertina · 05/11/2012 17:00

Good for you, incog, thats great. And yes, agree, yr upbringing was clearly toxic, no question Sad

Am really really struggling atm, get hugely emotional and angry at times, overwhelming. My kids are suffering as am not 100% and feel I'm carrying on to next generation despite my awareness- 8 yr old said "mum you don't seem to like kids" and 12 yr old has said once that he wants to kill himself SadSad . Am getting him help but clearly failing them. Feel am worse than dm, just in different way.

HotDAMNlifeisgood · 05/11/2012 17:03

I'm afraid your Mum is not going to change. It doesn't follow that you therefore just have to put up with her behaviour.

YY to that

IncogKNEEto · 05/11/2012 17:28

I agree with hotdamn your posts are in no way drivel, I felt you wrote very insightfully and considered, especially asffo you have been through so much.

salbertina I am sorry you are struggling at the moment, I can empathise with the feeling of not giving your dc 100%, but I think that it is good that your dc can talk to you about how they feel, and that you hear them and want to make things better. I can't see that as you failing, you are doing your best, we all make mistakes, but the important thing is to try and learn from them.

fresh · 05/11/2012 19:33

Salbertina do you have a therapist to talk to? I spent four years with mine and during that time we constructed a safe place for me to be heard and supported. It saved my life in a way, and got me to a place where I could parent my kids without any reference to my mum (either by repeating her mistakes or overcompensating and smothering them).

Please don't beat yourself up, that's an old response which comes from being told you're worthless. Just by acknowledging how hard it is you're working it through, and you'll come out the end. And I agree, the fact that your kids feel safe enough to express difficult things to you speaks volumes about your empathy. Sending you an un-mumsnetty hug.

financialwizard · 06/11/2012 08:30

Thanks ladies. I am still feeling permanently in the wrong at the moment which I guess has been my stasis for years, and very very difficult to get out of.

Every day is bringing new memories and what I really want to do is bury them, but I know that is not healthy and that eventually I will get over this awful stage of realism and be able to take control properly.

I do feel a bit better today, although I did speak with my parents yesterday. I didn't talk about money/houses or any of the other subjects that my Mum likes to try and control. I just kept the conversation geared around how she was going to get back on her feet after her operation.

They are coming up to visit for a day and a half in December so that they can see the house and the children, but my husband will be home for some of their visit and Mum won't dare ask imposing questions when he is around.

cantreachmytoes · 06/11/2012 08:46

Incog - your post sounds almost exactly like you're describing my mother, although the type of violence was different and we weren't really allowed to do things after school like that. The "all or nothing" approach to giving information too resonated. It's like she pushes a button, my mouth opens and information comes out that I have no control over! I have a 1yr old, so am not as far down the parenting track as you and I also live in a different country to my mother, but so far I have never left her with him alone unless he's asleep or they're outside and he's in the pushchair. It's a bit of a pain for me on one hand, but it's the only way I can be sure that she won't do anything I am not happy with. I am seeing it more clearly everyday that I have a responsibility to my DS that overrides any obligation I feel towards her. I'm really struggling with her (because I'm with her at the moment) - and my brother is exactly the same as you describe yours, but she has shown some of her her true colours to my husband and in conjunction with me drip feeding things from my childhood that have arisen as I look at our son and have (horrible) memories come back, he now stands firmly beside me. This feels amazing, because for my whole life I thought she was 'normal' and it was me who had the problem. Your husband sounds like a good father/husband if he's joining you in changing the parenting style. Does he know, really know, about her and your childhood?

IncogKNEEto · 06/11/2012 11:38

cantreach it's sad that there are so many of us that understand how this feels and affects us. I have never really acknowledged the depth of my issues with my Mum to myself, but I have spoken to dh about things that happened in the past, and he seems to get it. He has a difficult mother himself, and he is recently back in contact with her after a period of NC, but he seems better able to continue with a superficial relationship with her where it all washes over him, this works better for him than the sadness and guilt of NC.

I really struggle with the 'mouth opens and WAY too much information falls out' problem when I'm with my Mum and I don't seem to be able to stop it, much as I want to. I actually find it easier when I'm NC like at the moment because I don't have to think about every word I say!

Dh is a good man and father, we are really working as a parenting team these days and it's great! I can't believe it has taken us until now to realise that our upbringings weren't 'normal' and that we have the power to make things different for our children.

It is fantastic that you have dh firmly onside too, it makes such a difference when you feel heard and supported Smile

IncogKNEEto · 06/11/2012 11:46

Fe glad you are feeling a bit better today, it is overwhelming at times, I feel like I am having reassess my whole life, looking at everything anew in the light of these revelations about my Mum. It makes me feel as though I am cut adrift and can't trust my initial feelings about anything as it all seems wrong somehow Sad I think all we can do is keep moving forward and processing each new thought/feeling as we feel able to.

IncogKNEEto · 06/11/2012 11:48

Fw sorry Blush

FunBagFreddie · 06/11/2012 13:37

Hey, is anyone on this thred at the moment?

AttilaTheMeerkat · 06/11/2012 13:40

What's up FunBagFreddie?

AttilaTheMeerkat · 06/11/2012 13:44

FW

((((((((((((((fw))))))))))))))

Can you limit the length of your parents visit in December?.

You are not in the wrong; they are. They have failed you utterly.

Do consider reading "If you had controlling parents" that I mentioned on your own thread.

FunBagFreddie · 06/11/2012 14:03

That's odd, it looked like nobody had posted on this thread since January. I don't get how MN works sometimes.

Hi AttilaTheMeerkat - just wanted to see who else comes from dysfunctional families and how they cope.

Dawndonna · 06/11/2012 16:40

Well, finally called her on her gaslighting the other day, she was so shocked, then started lying. So I then said goodbye. No contact. Hurrah!

IncogKNEEto · 06/11/2012 16:57

dawn I admire your strength in being able to confront her on the gaslighting, I have only recently heard this term on MN and I'm pretty sure that it is something my Mum does too, if not she certainly remembers things differently to me...

How do you feel about the NC? Did it help to have a 'reason's to go NC?

I am currently NC with my Mum after our email exchange re her birthday and my reconciliation with dh, but I'm pretty sure she is waiting for me to contact her to apologise for my rudeness, and am positive that she is currently blaming dh for the NC.

Not sure where to go from here, I don't want her to blame him, the timing of my realisation that she is toxic was unfortunate, and I'm sure if I did resume contact she wouldn't accept that he had no part to play in me not contacting her. I just feel so much calmer and happier being NC. it's a minefield isn't it? Confused

financialwizard · 06/11/2012 17:29

FE has a certain ring to it IncogKNEEto Grin

Attila I have ordered the book today actually. Thank you for that. I might be able to shorten the visit in December, am not up to having any serious discussions with them right now as I am trying to stick to things that are completelt off of the controlling topic. My husband is going to see them Thursday night/Friday because he has to pick up some things that we left in the boot of their car by mistake. So he might be able to worm into the conversation about changing the length of time that they stay. Even if they went home at lunch time on the Monday it would be better than them staying until the Tuesday. I feel like I am a little girl hiding behind him at the moment but he is very understanding and knows that I will be confident again.

financialwizard · 06/11/2012 17:32

I've never heard of gaslighting. What is it?

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