Is SGB around?

[spiderslegs]

Open relationships - tell me more.

Squeakytoy Do you have any links to those reports? It certainly hasn't been proved that monogamy was around as long as man existed, many anthropologists think it's a lot more recent. Not sure what you mean by 'natural' - the evidence really doesn't suggest that humans are biologically hardwired to be monogamous, but there are very good reasons why a lot (not all by any stretch of the imagination) of human societies have had monogamy as the societal norm for a very long time.

Not all animals practice monogamy. Some pair for life (and of those, some are faithful, some aren't), some are serially monogamous and some are totally promiscuous. So 'what nature intends' is for all animals to do what is biologically appropriate for that species, but actually monogamy in animals is actually extremely unusual. Of 5000 species of mammals, only 3 to 5% are monogamous. Of animal species that are socially monogamous, only a very small species are found to be sexually monogamous too.

By the way, I am not arguing against monogamy in the comment above. I am not anti-monogamy.

I agree with the poster that suggested life is a balancing act. It is up to the individual to decide what is really important irrespective of research. I think that if the OP cant persuade her other half to have an open rel then she really has to decide whether fucking others is all that important in comparison to her already reasonable life/sex life. Some peeps can NEVER be satisfied.

I have to admit and this may seem a bit prune mouthed that it can be a bit childish to want EVERY damn thing and others to agree with your wants and wishes and have to listen to them (to the detriment of their own self esteem and sexual confidence) in the name of honesty.

oh and have the pics up of your other half and kids on your profile so that they can be identified by your local community whether they like it or not!

When I first met my h we discussed an open relationship at the start and he was not keen. His view was that it was like hoping for 'socialism in one country.

Those who saw my own thread will see that he had a bit of a cheek, considering his eventual behaviour. However, tbh, I do think the point stands- we are all part of a wider social and cultural system which impacts on how we think and behave, and definitely on how we judge things, and the meaning we place on them. Russia wasnt able to develop socialism for the same reason- a great idea but well night impossible within a world system of economics and ideas.

It is really really difficult to isolate ourselves from these feelings, as they have developed within us at home, childhood, school, work, etc, over time.

The only non monogamous relationships I know of, and there are a few, involve one party being much keener than the other.

I wonder whether you manage this well, sgb, because you dont have a key live in long term relationship in which you are invested. Also, not living with someone is a key difference, as daily conversation, daily affection and daily encouragement are not part of the picture with one person, which allows for less long term intimacy to develop. I think it is this long term intimacy which causes the worst of the jealousy and insecurity etc.

Squeakytoy: I expect the reports you saw come from the same House of Bullshit as those repports that can be found 'proving' creationism. But to point out that monogamy is not natural is not to say that it's a bad thing. I have nothing against monogamy for other people, I just don't want to engage in it myself. What I have a problem with is the insistence that monogamy is superior or compulsory.
It's partly a feminist thing: the brutal enforcement of monogamy, ie the wide and longstanding cultural acceptance that it's OK to use violence against those who breach it, is all about men's ownership of women as a breeding resource.
And there have been plenty of human societies where monogamy was not the norm at all - not that they were necessarily any better for women. Currently, in terms of sexual behaviour, the developed world offers the best situation there has been, so far, for women: access to contraception, legally regarded as full human beings rather than property or minors, freedom to be gay or celibate or sleep with a thousand men, at least theoretically...

I think there's been some very thought proving comments on here for me, I think SGB is right, I don't know if monogamy is a natural state for many people as the divorce courts would attest. As my life currently stands I am completely monogamous to my husband & as I stated before I have no intention at this moment of being anything other than that.

Really I initiated this discussion because I was thinking about marriage, my marriage, in the long term. I'm approaching 40, have a failed marriage behind me, no desire for another one & it's triggered a lot of thought about making my marriage a long & successful one. Which may, at some point in the future, involve opening it up a bit, equally it may not.

Either way I don't feel any shame about having or discussing those feelings, I haven't said anything on here I wouldn't discuss with people in RL which is why I haven't NC'd. Even if everyone I knew read this I see no reason why they'd take issue with it, & if they do it's their issue, not mine.

& talking about secrets, I'm of the firm belief that things can only be shameful if you keep them secret & feel they're something to be ashamed of, I learnt long ago that the best way to lose those feelings is to let them out (my ex-h used to tell me I saw unembarrassable & without shame - in that respect, he may have been right), things tend to lose their power if you are open about them.

I don't think you can conclude that monogamy is a bad thing due to the number of divorces.

I think I'd go as far as saying that for most people what they really desire- hand on heart- is to be loved and to love one person.

But what I do think happens is that with longer life expectancy and women's financial independence, very few women nowadays are willing to put up with men/marriages which fall short of their ideal. And 75% of divorces are initiated by women.

That ideal may be a fantasy, which is why serial monogamy is becoming the norm.

Living a non-monogamous life is fine- but you have to be brutally honest with yourself and what that means to you- does it mean serial partners or multiple partners? How do you handle the emotions? Are there emotions or are you simply wanting a bit of variety with the sex whilst keeping a long-term primary relationship as your comfort zone?

Regardless of the debates re monogamy I do think that if you dont want to be monogamous then don't get married.

If you want to sleep with multiple partners then why not be single and avoid hurting someone else (unless of course an open marriage is something that you have entered into from the very start)

You took your wedding vows, your husband did too and now you want to change the goalposts. Your husband has told you that suicide is a preferable option to an open relationship so his feelings havent changed in this respect.

You talk of honesty as if its a really noble thing your doing when in reality you are being unspeakably cruel to your husband. As other posters have said it would be a crushing blow to most people if their DP turned round and said that they wanted to sleep with other people, it implies that there is something lacking in the relationship, that something has changed (and not for the better). I hope in this desire to be honest and discuss every feeling and desire that you have that you don't wreck an otherwise good relationship.

I don't think of honesty as being either noble or ignoble , I think of it as being real though, I think of it as being realer than suppressing parts of yourself, then going ballistic & tearing down the walls in a frenzy.

I think an honest marriage is something to aspire to & I guess that's what I'm striving for, is it unspeakably crueller to have these thoughts & share them or to keep them bottled up, have an affair 10 years down the line & end up in the divorce courts with much more acrimony all round?

I don't know, I don't have an answer to that. What I know is that I want a life-long relationship with my husband & painful discussions are a part of life-long relationships, or is it just better to rub-along with some-one for 40 years without ever reaching a deeper level of intimacy?

We all have parts of ourselves that we dont share with others, thats not dishonesty, especially when we know that to reveal that part of ourselves would deeply hurt someone we love.

Its your life and we all do what we think is right for our own circumstances. All I know is that if I was hoping for a life-long relationship with my husband, telling him that I wanted to fuck other men wouldnt be the best way to go about it. Especially if I knew he'd rather stab his eyes out than have an open relationship. You just seem very self-absorbed thats all. It might be worth putting yourself in his position and instead of the brutal honesty showing a bit of empathy.

From your last post it seems that one way or another, openly or through an affair, you'll do what you want anyway.

Spiders (me again), as I said further up the thread, people tend to become very judgemental when faced with this sort of discussion/proposal. Not sure exactly why, maybe it's the fear of something that they can't comprehend themselves, or would rather not think about and hence a desire to bludgeon their own thoughts and beliefs onto others.

Only you know your husband and presumably you are also able to assess how open he is to at the very least discussing these things with you. Anyone making judgements about what they would do/not do is therefore just projecting their own relationship onto yours and assuming everyone is bound to react in the same way.

FWIW, at no stage have I read anything that implies you will just go ahead and continue, regardless of what your DH says. Rather the contrary.

Spider

I do not think you are being honest.

With yourself.

What is it you are searching for that is not in your marriage?

Are you wanting the thrill of a new partner? Are you bored sexually?

Are you wanting an emotional connection that is not there in your marriage?

You see, these are the only things that someone other than your DH could offer.

It does appear that you want to have your cake and eat it.

You want the security of marriage- but the thrill of new relationships and encounters.

Talking openly about this does not validate those feelings.

it does make your DH feel insecure and presumably that he doesn't fulfil you in some way.

If you want non-exclusivity then you have , I think, to take everything that goes with that. That means accepting you might fall for someone who won't commit to you. It means you might have fallow years when no one is available. It definitely means you can't have the safe and comforable backdrop of your marriage while you test the waters.

IMO most people who do not want monogamy are quite self-sufficient and are happy to be alone for much of the time. They are happy to have encounters that are transient. They do not look for love; and they don't offer it.

This is a very different mindset to yours. You appear to be searching for something ( and i think you really must define what that is) which is not on your life now.

If you want variety and all the insecurity that goes with it, then leave your DH because your honesty is just pure selfishness, and a form of torture to him- do you realise that?

Mr Meaner, to say that anyone expressing an opinion thats not the same as your own does so out or fear or lack of comprehension is just unbelievably arrogant.

If you read the thread you will see that the OP said on discussing open relationships with her DH he said suicide was preferable. Does that sound open to discussion to you? Thats what I was commenting on - not whether monogomy or open relationships are right or wrong.

Monogamy you wouldn't need a huge amount of cultural pressure to prop it up as an institution and loads of sanctions and penalties for refusing to engage in it.

Don't get this.

it's simple to blame "society" for creating a lifestyle you don't happen to want for yourself.

Take a simple straw poll and most people would aspire to having one loving relationship rather than a series of transient encounters.

No construct there- and it's arrogant and patronising to call it pressure.

Hmm, Simone, I don't believe that is what I said if you read closely - apologies if it came across as such.

What I did say was that people tend to become judgemental about this and I wasn't sure why that was, and then made some guesses as to why it might be.

The responses are starting to be exactly that - bringing in a moral judgement of the OP that actually bear little resemblance to what she has said her ultimate behaviour will be - ie happy with her husband as is, if that is how he wishes things to remain, and not that 'she'll do what she wants anyway' [your quote].

My own personal opinion (which of course you can fully disagree with me on) is that openly talking about desires/temptations like this would actually ultimately result in far fewer people ending up having affairs etc as admitting these wishes can often take the 'thrill of the chase' away.

My own personal opinion (which of course you can fully disagree with me on) is that openly talking about desires/temptations like this would actually ultimately result in far fewer people ending up having affairs etc as admitting these wishes can often take the 'thrill of the chase' away.

Err...no.

it will only result in fewer affairs if they don't act on their desires.

It's still forbidden fruit in most cases, whether talked about or not.

It MIGHT prevent affairs in so much as the tempted partner sees in advance how devastated the other partner would be if she/he was to have an affair.

Ameliagrey: but it is a cultural construct, invented by men to ensure that every man knew that the DC he supported came from his own sperm and peddled to women as necessary so that each man got to own a woman for domestic, sexual and breeding purposes. Compulsory monogamy's all about male ownership of women. That's why it's been perfectly acceptable for men to kill unfaithful women for centuries (and still is in far too many people's opinion).

And what seems to be the majority pattern in reality is to become bored, at least sexually so, with any given partner after a few years. Some people end a relationship and start a new one, others engage in all the naff undignified consumerism peddled by the Relationship Industry to 'spice up' longterm relationships, some have illicit affairs and some decide to renegotiate the monogamy boundaries.
But the cult of monogamy still does damage, and people are still strongly (and wrongly) urged just to suck it up, stay monogamous despite being bored, miserable and claustrophobic, because the monogamous partner is Good and the bored one Bad, immature, selfish etc etc. I think it's more immature and selfish to regard a partner as a possession and wail and threaten to kill yourself if they even want to discuss renegotiating monogamy.

SGB and the emotions? Love etc? Where do they fall in all of what you said?

To anyone who thinks that non-monogamy is a way to avoid infidelity and affairs - cheating can and does happen in non-monogamous relationships. When my H and I first got together we agreed we both wanted an open relationship and he managed to cheat on me. In his previous open relationship he was unfaithful a lot. In other words, boundaries had been agreed and, knowing full well what they were, he ignored them, lied and all that stuff that goes with cheating and it feels just the same as cheating in a monogamous relationship. In another situation, I was friends with a guy whose girlfriend wanted their relationship to become open. He really didn't want to have an open relationship, but wanted to sleep with me and for me to keep it a secret - this was in the middle of all their talks about it. People cheat and I've seen it happen in a number of open relationships. Having an open relationship is not any kind of insurance against it.

ameliagrey I don't think it's necessarily terrible to talk about monogamy as a social structure. Bear in mind, it's not universal human behaviour - it just happens to be how our society has been ordered for a very, very long time. You can say that without disparaging it or thinking that it's inherently a bad idea or anything else. And yes, many or most people in our society would say that they wanted a relationship with one person, but that doesn't prove that monogamy wasn't something that came about for social reasons. We know that in many societies it didn't. I don't think that invalidates it, but I think it is important for people to realise and be tolerant of the fact that the human being is very complex and that, as a species, not everyone of us is heterosexual or monogamous by nature. The monogamy paradigm that our society has had for all these years is very closely tied in to heterosexuality, so if anyone is accepting of homosexuality and think it's just as natural and valid as heterosexuality, then they have already accepted that the one man/one woman monogamy model which has alway been the norm (and viciously enforced) must be a social structue.

Ameliagrey: Emotions are just emotions, there's nothing supernatural about them. And different people experience them in different ways. Many poly people, especially poly-families, love all their partners. Just like people with several children love them all. And not everyone needs emotional involvement to be linked with sex, and certainly not everyone needs emotional involvement to be linked with every sexual encounter. Good manners and mutual attraction are enough for a sexual encounter to be enjoyable for quite a lot of people.

SGB you cannot equate the love for a child and the love for a partner. They are completely different.

What is interesting about your post- and rather telling- is that you link emotions and sex. I didnt!

It is possible for couples to wish to be together in old age when sex is a distant memory. Saying that monogamy revolves around sexual exclusiveness ignores the fact that even when sex has gone- in old age (and not for all couples, but for many) - a bond still exists.

As for emotions not being the supernatural- I don't know what you mean by that. it's a catchy line but it's meaningless.

Every time you post about monogamy it simply makes me think that love has passed you by, in a Mr Spock way, as you seem to say "Love? What is this love you talk about?"

I reiterate, Spider, while you dont mind being 'honest' on a forum open to the public, does your other half mind that you have proclaimed a penchant for maybe wanting to fuck other guys?

I say that that cos I can see his picture on your profile and if I lived in your community (in fact its clear where you live cos you have talked about it other threads) I would know that you had been discussing this with him if I met him in the street, and that he would 'rather commit suicide' than be involved in an open marriage. So he has to have the same level of public 'openness' as you. Does he mind?

'twould be lovely to live in a fantastic old house with plenty of land and muse about being a 'free spirit' while having the old man work his bollocks off to support me. Just sayin'......