Can Asperger's look like emotional abuse?

[NotThemCrows]

I posted on here last week, concerned about my DHs behaviour. I have read the Lundy book (fantastic- huge thanks to all those who pointed me in that direction) and recognised some of the stuff in there.

Last night I had a 1 to 1 session with our Relate counsellor for the first time (had about 4 sessions together and DH had one by himself 2 weeks ago) and she thinks that my DH may have Aspergers.

This does make a lot of sense to me, he is socially awkward, no empathy, no emotional awareness etc.

Could his major problem be Aspergers?

I was just wondering if any else has difficulties with an Aspergers DH that feels like EA.

Either way he still has anger issues, has demonstrated unacceptable behaviour and I have totally had enough of his bs and want a separation.

I am just trying to make sense of it all (or am I making excuses?)

Thoughts please

Thanks Zuzu. We will miss your input but I understand.

It's great that more people are joining us here.

Peppa, I wish I had your strength and insight. Sadly we only identified AS in DH very recently, after years of difficulties, frustration and confusion. Unfortunately I checked out of the relationship emotionally about 2 yrs ago and honestly don't know how to get those feelings back.

I was trying to explain to someone earlier what it has been like. The example I gave was of one morning when our 3yo dd came into our bed. I was chatting to her and I said "You are so cute! show me how cute you are" She beamed a great big cheesy grin, I laughed and said to DH "Look how cute dd is!" he replied "I don't want to look at her", no anger, no malice, he just had more important things to do like getting ready for work with no idea of how damaging that comment could be for her. I am exhausted from constantly clearing up the emotional fallout from his comments and actions.

Hello all again - great to see this post thriving, and what's better is to recognise similarities and feel there are positive ways forward.:)

peppa I am where you are. I have accepted what I have (a lot of which is great) and what I won't get. I am seeking help to enable me to be braver about confronting situations (and dh) about these extremely sensitive areas, in the hope that i can cope better, as well as generally improve our whole family's outlook.

I am optimistic about finding better ways for us all, but at this point I don't know if this will ever involve dh being aware of my 'diagnosis', or postings here......but mn, and this post particularly, has been a HUGE help.
thanks!
(thanks)

try that again

I am fascinated by the input here so thank-you for sharing.

Last night DH I were talking, we are in a very bad place and I'm not sure if I can continue. It's positive to hear how other couples are managing but I wonder if my nature is very wrong for an AS person as I'm intuitive, emphatic and emotional but in a relationship with an opposite and my needs aren't being met. As a result I feel as if I am not thriving.

An example - we were talking last night, seeing if we could find a way through this and he asked that I tell him how I feel, rationally I understand that an AS person needs this but when I'm obviously upset I just want him to know how I feel. We have been together a long time and he doesn't seem to know me. I think this is why it has got worse over the years as I have expected, that with the passing of time, DH would understand me more but in that respect we could be a 'new' couple. I

Ideally we would separate for a period of time but finances are awful and I'm not currently working as I gave up my job just a few months ago as DS (who we suspect also has AS) wasn't coping with school/childcare.

allabout I could have written your post - about 6-12 mnths ago.

Now that I really do think my dh has some of these traits, I have stopped wasting of a lot of my emotional energy on thinking bad things about him, and accepting he can't help what he is, and actually needs some careful 'managing'.

Look for every positive he is, has, and offers.
From his point of view, he is probably doing everything possible to provide for his family.

Use direct language, in a neutral voice, with no hint of accusation, criticism, and state plainly what you think.
We need to meet them halfway - just as it's hard for us to have to announce how we feel, it must be just as hard for them to just 'know'.

Since I started doing this, the overall 'heat' in the house has cooled as I think he felt under pressure all the time, that he was doing everything wrong, and this would come out as (unacceptable) bursts of anger, and uptight, controlling behaviour.

Having said that, I am still too scared to mention AS to him, as I have no idea what his reaction would be. It could be an epiphany, or he'd see it as the ultimate put down - I don't know.

However, like you, this leaves me a lot of the time in an emotional vacuum. I hate to say it, but for now I am accepting this, and just not expecting anything more emotionally rewarding. I am making efforts to expand my range of friends/activities, so that when my 'emotional tank' is a little fuller - I don't lean on him so much for that kind of support.

We have a long way to go, but I am sooo much more optimistic now about having a happy-ish future than in the last few years.

submarinegirl, thank-you, very useful advice but currently I'm struggling to put it into practice as my emotional tank is most definitely on empty and I don't seem to be able to fill it when living with DH.

Having said that, I am still too scared to mention AS to him, as I have no idea what his reaction would be. It could be an epiphany, or he'd see it as the ultimate put down - I don't know
That would concern me, surely as adults we are all responsible for some degree of self awareness. My dh isn't too concerned with the label, I think it helps that AS is often attributed with having higher than average intelligence and he's happy to own up to that:)

allaboutthename - that is exactly my situation. I am so exhausted with it all, I have nothing left to give, no energy or mental capacity to implement new strategies etc also the impact on our dc's is heartbreaking

In a way I wish we could have identified the AS earlier, before I got to this point, then maybe we could have saved our marriage.

For my STBXH the identification of AS was definitely a relief as he has always been aware that he has struggled in certain situations.

Submarinegirl - do you have dc's?

Whoever said I am strong... well I am not tbh. What I did was some sort of 'survival reflex'.

As allabout said, my emotional needs were not met and I was pretty miserable. I always have had in my mind that I would only find happiness within myself. So I looked there and stopped hoping that things would change and become what I wanted them to be (ie a husband who would be able to support me emotionally). This is hard because it is going against what my beliefs were (that I needed a good relationship to be happy and that I could not be happy within a 'bad' relationship).
I mase the space
I also looked at the behaviors that were just not acceptable and decided to be assertive about those and not accept them (I truly believe that a man who has AS also has the potential -as any other man- to be a twat. This is that side of things I really wanted him to modify. I think it worked because this wasn't EA as such but a very inappropriate reaction. And he could see that).

submarin the overall 'heat' in the house has cooled as I think he felt under pressure all the time, that he was doing everything wrong, and this would come out as (unacceptable) bursts of anger, and uptight, controlling behaviour. yes I can relate to that too. Because I stopped trying/pushing/demanding, the atmosphere got lighter and it gave him the room to change.
And I also have not come anywhere near mentioning AS to him. I know he would have taken it badly. And I also now he is trying his best wo knowing anything about AS. Probably as pink sais, there is a constant underlying will to do his best so I am not sure it is necssary to put a label on it.

Hope that makes sense!

sorrymylollipop yes, 2 ds, 10 and 6.

it was seeing my dh's behaviour after we had kids that made me question what was going on. I think now the stress and lack of sleep, structure, attention from me made him very uptight, and a very tense unpredictable person to be around.

But he also started having total anger meltdowns, at me, at me in front of the kids, and occasionally at the kids themselves.

This is when I realised I had a serious situation on my hands, and numerous attempts to talk and understand led to utter bafflement on both sides.

I became v stressed/depressed, saw my gp, who referred me and I am now waiting on counselling.

I am not a naturally demanding person, in fact I have pretty serious self esteem issues. So between us it's been hellish, and damaging for the kids.

I am hoping the counselling will give me the strength, and tools, to broach this whole subject of AS with him.

Another avenue may be our ds2, whose behaviour and anxiety has got us waiting on an appointment from the school psychologist. Perhaps he has AS traits? We have often said, since ds2 was born, how alike he is to dh. Dh certainly seems to recognise they have similar wavelengths.

I feel I have created a temporary space for us all to relax a bit more, (and for our survival probably) but we have a long way to go yet.

peppa
"Probably as pink sais, there is a constant underlying will to do his best so I am not sure it is necssary to put a label on it."

I feel the same, but hope in the future we might be able to discuss it - I don't like the subterfuge, feeling I'm 'handling' him, going behind his back.

It's taken me nearly a year of reading up on mumsnet, other websites etc etc to reach this point where I feel quite strongly that's what's going on. (AS traits) He's too nice a guy in every other way, anything else just doesn't make sense.

I hope we could share it, it's yet another thing I'm dealing with on my own (shrugs)....

SorryMyLollipop, like you I really wish I had considered AS a long time ago as we would be in a better place now.The issues started to appear when there was stressful events and we went for highly expensive counselling following that which didn't really help. Had AS been diagnosed it would have a life saver but we have gone on and my resentment has grown.
I guess that is it - I am resentful and I feel as if I can't grow. DH on the other hand has thrived in our relationship, his first marriage was with an abusive woman (who destroyed his self confidence) but I have been supportive and he really values me.

Even when we are having tough breakup discussions he doesn't manage to maintain eye contact and it makes me feel unimportant but with the realisation of AS I know that it isn't intentional. Still bloody infuriating though!

Peppa, Yes, can I find the strength within myself? Logically I know that's the answer but I'm so low at the present time and completely running on empty and I feel DH is a drain that saps the energy, faster than I can build it. He comes from a pretty dysfunctional family and he has limited and superficial contact with them and he doesn't have friends to talk to so I'm basically all of his support. I have neglected my own needs - I think my job has always provided an energy source but I'm gave that up to care for DS who wasn't coping with childcare. For ds and DH it has been highly positive but it has massively impacted me and made the relationship issues more transparent.

submarinegirl, I think AS has a high genetic factor (mostly through the male line) so a diagnosis for your dc would lead naturally to conversations.

allabout, I can totally recognize the energy drain that living like this is. I too have found DH to be a real energy drain and especially with emotional energy. I have been very low and tired. So much so that I have actually being diagnosed with mild ME. Tbh, I don't think it was/is ME. It was just the sheer exhaustion from dealing with running the family on my own, dealing with DH, being worried about the effect of the whole situation on the dcs.... Now that I have taken some distance and that things are getting a bit better, my energy is back.
Things started to improve when I decided to look after myself before looking after him. After all, if you try and rescue someone, the first thing you need to do is to ensure that you are safe. An injured or dead rescuer isn't going to help anyone. I had acupuncture, saw a counsellor for a bit and did some meditation everyday with the intent to bring joy back into my life. It took a good 1.5 year but it worked.
I think that, as you feel better within yourself, it is easier to deal with the situations as they arise. I stopped try to 'achieve' anything (either to save my marriage or to get divorced) and concentrated on me. I figure out that whatever the outcome I would be better able to deal with it.
Ressentment is a difficult one. I have been feeling ressentful, sad when DH was finally doing something 'nice', extra sad when I was seeing other dads being involved with their dcs or when watching DH giving a 'cuddle' to dc1, at arms length.... Ressentful as to why he hadn't done the extra effort that you sometimes need to do for your dcs, just because they are your dcs, when I had spent so much time doing it for them (I had PND with dc1 and it took me 4 years of hard work to recreate a healthy, unconditionally loving relationship). The only thing I can say is that, as I got in a better place myself, I was able to be more compassionate and less ressentful.

This is hard though. I can talk now about what I have done and how well it worked but at the time, I had no idea and i have spent so much time wondering if I wasn't making a mistake to stay, if I wasn't hurting my dcs to doing so....

Even though I get on quite well with DF now, after 3 days staying at his my brain has had Enough! It used to be that I would need a full day in bed after each time he came to stay - I cope better now. So I can empathisise with how difficult it can be even with a nice kind man with AS.

And at least we both liked physics and trains.

NCL was always selfish, funnily enough it was because we both had AS traits that I thought we were well suited, and forgave him too much. When we were first married we were both working, it is the entitled living off me for most of the last 2 decades that I cannot forgive. Not the AS, but the NPD.

ps to Peppa - it was the not actually being sure he loved me that made my childhood hard (well, one of the things). If he can't hug them (mine couldn't - see upthread) can he tell them? It would have made such a difference to me. I suppose to him it was just another thing that went without saying...

Pink, I am not sure he could do that either... It is hard when I hear dc1 saying that he doesn't want to spend the day with daddy because he doesn't like him... And I know the reason is that DH gets angry easily with them (he doesn't cope with the noise at all) and he isn't able to be there emotionally for them.
DH has all my trust on a material & physical pov. But he just isn't able to analyze situations and evaluate if one of the dc is unhappy, when to let go of things and when to be strict. The best one was when he started to have a go at one of the dcs for not 'sitting properly' on the sofa as I was ready to tell them about the death of my gran, which they both knew and love. He knew he was going to and I know he wanted to be helpful (so I would have their full attention) but god, that wasn't the rigth thing to do...
The reality though is that, if we were getting divorced, they would still have to face the same difficulties because he will always be their dad no matter what.

Yes I know Peppa, and I remember your post about the sofa sitting. It is of course worse for you just because you understand how the DC feel.

How old are your DC again?

Reading the last couple of posts, makes me think that it's really important to find a family dynamic that suits everyone in an AS/NT relationship - I mean, almost more important than in an NT/NT relationship. And it might well not look very conventional.

We have what looks from the outside like a pretty batshit crazy family dynamic - very non-authoritarian; children's preferences as important as parents'; home educating because that's what everyone prefers; the NT parent (me) is the full time breadwinner while the AS parent is at home with the children. And that works for us - there isn't a need for anyone to be the authority figure; boundaries are negotiated by consent (and mostly non-verbally); we accept that each of us has things we are good at and things we aren't good at so we complement each other. I'm rubbish at housework - left to me, we'd live in total squalor. But I'm great at taking the children out and about to complicated places without losing anyone (well, I don't often lose anyone in a dial-999 way).

We got into that dynamic through my partner reading a lot of epistemology (theory of knowledge). It's all philosophy philosophy philosophy, but the upshot has been theories about knowledge creation and education (and by extension child rearing) that respect the autonomy of every individual in the family WITHOUT RELYING ON INSTINCTIVE EMOTIONAL INTELLIGENCE.

Routes to knowledge about how to create a happy family dynamic are going to be different for every person - I really think a relationship is only salvageable if both parties are very determined to isolate the problems and find ways to solve them (separate ways and/or joint ones - two people can be trying two totally different and independent strategies, and the results might be splendid).

ommmmward very wise and encouraging words, have enjoyed your posts. You sound like someone much farther down the road!

Although I 've posted I'm optimistic - its only because I have counselling to 'look forward' to. At this point I am clueless how to deal with the big issues that are still there.

peppa , allabout and sorrymylollipop - I'm in survival mode, putting everything off til I can understand better what to do. I empathise completely where you are.

It's really made me wonder - how many of us are there? How common is this - dp/dh with AS traits.....?

Well blow me down I just did some aspergers tests. I thought I would give it a try. Sure enough, although I'm not technically AS (according to the test) I am not exactly neurotypical either. I was two points below. If that's me, I reckon dp is off the scale.

I wonder if the two of us have somehow come together unable to read each other, muddling along, putting up with less because we need less from each other - but at the same time experiencing huge conflicts.

It has been very interesting trying to determine the reason behind dps behaviour. I think we are both going through some kind of identity crisis now though.He's also had a bit of an epiphany following some training for work, realising how tone of voice and eye contact can make or break good communication.

But the abuser/victim scenario is still a very real possibility - both explanations are equally possible.

horsetowater, I think it can be very tricky to know what is what.
I am fully aware that having AS does not make someone a bully or an abuser. But I was ineterrested to read that a relatively important percentage of AS men do have issues with anger for example. And some are being EA. I have being wondering if this is not because they are in what is actually a very difficult situation to deal with and therefore act in ways that look like EA??

My experience is certainly that some of DH behaviors is really down to AS eg his inability to stand noise (which is pretty difficult to avoid with 2 young dcs...) and some was him being a tw**t (or reacting in inappropriate ways or being EA or being PA depending on how you want to look at it...) like when he deliberately walked out of the room or started to read a magazine whilst I was talking to him.
I think that's what makes things very difficult because these attitudes do need very different type of reactions. Interrestingly enough, I am finding that the things I really can not stand are behaviours belonging to the second category. The AS stuff I can deal with, esp now I have a better understanding.

Absolutely spot on Peppa.

So mine doesn't do holidays and day trips well because he's out of his depth and prefers routine and familiarity (AS). I can also see his sabotaging our evenings out as AS, he can't cope with the unfamiliar well at all, doesn't see the point.

At first I thought this was him being unreasonable and annoying, then later I put it down to EA, he was trying to control me, or restrict my movements / contacts. His distress in these circumstances always came out as hostile - either mocking the event, or agreeing to go and then sabotaging, with me reacting accordingly - with anger and frustration. This then antagonised the situation more.

But assuming now that AS is the reason that he is, well, boring, lets me and him right off the hook.

But it has major implications on our relationship as we are then not the couple that I want us to be. We never really were, but he played the game long enough for me to think that we just about were.

Yet he's always been OK with the relationship, because he has no needs other than to be safe / boring whichever way you look at it.

Had a very interesting AS behaviour learning experience yesterday. Upthread I have mentioned 'stepping on landmines' with my DF. Well yesterday a close friend trod on one of my landmines.

Although I hadn't meant to reveal so much, we had been talking about a very emotive topic, my ongoing negotiations for ancillary relief after divorce. Then she said the words 'Golden Handshake' and I went off on a huge rant. It triggered a whole lot of other associations with me that she knew absolutely nothing of, and she was using it her metaphorical way, which was at odds with the 'standard' meaning.

Anyone seen 'Dead Men Don't Wear Plaid' where the mention of the words 'cleaning lady' have a similar effect? Friend was understandably quite upset, however I managed to set things straight.

I have been also trying to address the 'talking too loud' thing I mentioned upthread (and of which my poor friend has been the recipient). I think it might well be fired off by a trigger word - or silence - or turning away - behaviours exhibited by NCL - things that make me feel he thinks me less important than what he is currently doing.

Yes the turning away behaviour is particularly irksome and gets me raising my voice - well wtf do they expect really? Does yours talk to you while you are in another room and have no chance of hearing? I say 'talk to me when we are in the same room'.

There's another thing that strikes me really strongly.

The Relationships thread on MN (all the regulars have gone away and stopped reading this now, yeah?) has a very very strong culture of judging the person.

"My OH said x,y,z; behaves like l,m,n"
... 15 posters leap in
"He is abusive" "leave the bastard" "what a prick" "what a tw*t"

It's very black and white. Ending the relationship is almost always the advice, vociferously given.

Me, I'd rather label the behaviour, just as we would with a child.

Behaviours x,y,z. We have lots of freedom about how we interpret those behaviours. They might be abusive; they might be a symptom of an illness; they might be a symptom of a disability.

And if a rational explanation of those "abusive" behaviours is as a symptom of a disability or illness, then we can get out of the whole persecutor/victim mindset and find whole 'nother ways to navigate (and escape what feels like abuse).

Someone leaving a room in the middle of a conversation is only abusive if we decide to interpret it that way. Once we stop interpreting idiosyncrasies and different ways of behaving through an NT cultural norm, that frees us up to be much more loving, much more open, much more accepting. It used to drive me crazy when I was left alone mid-sentence, or a conversation was closed down. Now I am much better at thinking "ah. Poor timing, too in-your-face; I'll send an email instead, or I'll phone in my tea break when we are both relaxed"

Like I said upthread, our journey to a happy family life began a good while ago. I am so so so glad we stuck with it. There are some really really great things about being in an AS/NT relationship, like having the freedom to have your own social life; and having a wonderfully predictable structure to daily life; and being able to make star shapes in bed as long as there aren't any children in it; and being able to eat whatever you like because the other person might well prefer to prepare their own food and eat alone; and whatever the things I enjoy about it won't be exactly the things that you'd enjoy.

[and for the crunch moments, well, the Samaritans phone line is there for a good reason... and they don't put interpretations or judgments on what you say, they just listen]

And another random aside: I've long thought it is really valuable to have different people in one's life who fulfill different roles: someone to be a non-judging confidante; someone to (I don't know) play board games with; someone to share a home with; someone to provide physical closeness at just the right level; someone to have a laugh with; someone to work out work-related problems with; someone to hang out with the children with... and the mistake our NT mainstream culture makes is to assume that one person and only one person is the person to fulfill all those roles with. Most of my Mum friends have workaholic and/or AS partners (or are single). So we hang out together with the children at weekends. No need to resent the AS/workaholic partner for being absent - other people are fulfilling that need for hang-out company.