Can Asperger's look like emotional abuse?

[NotThemCrows]

I posted on here last week, concerned about my DHs behaviour. I have read the Lundy book (fantastic- huge thanks to all those who pointed me in that direction) and recognised some of the stuff in there.

Last night I had a 1 to 1 session with our Relate counsellor for the first time (had about 4 sessions together and DH had one by himself 2 weeks ago) and she thinks that my DH may have Aspergers.

This does make a lot of sense to me, he is socially awkward, no empathy, no emotional awareness etc.

Could his major problem be Aspergers?

I was just wondering if any else has difficulties with an Aspergers DH that feels like EA.

Either way he still has anger issues, has demonstrated unacceptable behaviour and I have totally had enough of his bs and want a separation.

I am just trying to make sense of it all (or am I making excuses?)

Thoughts please

Wow, just read the whole thread and you are talking about my life.
PhantomPAYNE, are we married to the same man??

DH & I have been together for 11 years but didn't move in together for several years and the problems appeared then. It has all been heightened since I've had some major and mostly negative life changes (moving areas, losing my fulltime job, pg's losses, serious illness) and DH has just not been able to respond or support me. I spent at least a year being depressed and more recently I've been very, very angry with him (and often unkind) as I have seen his lack of empathy as emotionally abusive. A diagnosis of AS would make so much sense, he is just like the man in the article. It is also likely that our ds has AS.
DH is highly sensitive to criticism and I'm not sure how to raise this with him, any advice on how best to raise this with him?

Don't raise it yet. We'll all have a think :)

Notthemcrows, I have to thank-you for raising this thread, it has been a lightbulb moment and potential marriage saver.I'm sorry for hijacking your thread as I ramble.

Pink, oops, I did raise it with him - things are so bad between us that we need to find a way forward.He has previously considered that he is AS and he did the online test which seems to confirm AS.

I have been horrid to him, very insulting during arguments as I have tried to get a 'normal' reaction..I know that isn't right but until yesterday I felt it was EA and I was fighting to survive.

It all makes so much sense now - we have a DS and I have always suspected autism but he doesn't have language delays so from what I've read he is likely to be AS. DH has a dd from a previous marriage and I think she is also likely to be AS. I'm her step mum and I have struggled so hard with our relationship as she's very 'cold' and never displays emotions.
Grief, it's all a bit overwhelming and I feel completely outnumbered at home and want to have a pity party:)

However I think it does explain why in recent years I haven't felt as if I can thrive, outwardly DH appears the perfect partner, gentle, kind, polite, and has an old fashioned approach. If life bumps along we are fine BUT if there is ANY emotional challenges then he shuts down and I am effectively alone. In the last few years we have gone through enormous changes, some we instigated, like moving and taking on a major building project. Knowing how DH is I realise this has been a major mistake, I am effectively managing alone and his rigid thinking has made everything so much more difficult.

DH has gone to work, he had to leave on time (as always) despite what is happening at home.I'm not sure what to do, my instinct is that I would thrive if we lived apart. Interestingly this was the situation for many years and I look back on the relationship at that time positively. We then had our son so decided to live together and it's been awful since then.

Not sure what to do - I think I will need to see a counsellor as I can't continue in the current state.

Thanks to all of you for the input - it really have been a breakthrough for me

I am like crazygracie and on the spectrum but married to someone who is supposedly NT. Whilst I have never found relationhips easy, I am definitely not abusive. For a start, I am far too logical! People with ASD may appear a bit cold sometimes, but this is a world apart from emotional abuse. I do go out of my way to consider how I am speaking to other people and how i may be coming across. Unlike my NT DH who will lash out verbally in anger and sulk etc, all things that are alien to me.

Are you 100% sure your H is not also on the spectrum laptop? DF and sometimes me will lash out verbally and sulk - it tends to happen suddenly as we are overwhelmed by our own emotions (my theory which is mine).

allabout

allabout - the rigid thinking and the emotional shutdown could be Aspergers - but they could also be control freakery. Fear of the new and different can often be plain old fear of losing control. Abuse is also a control issue.

I don't know the ins and outs of AS, to me there is a chicken and egg situation where if children don't learn at a young age to be flexible and embrace the new, they can develop into being more and more controlling. I've seen this in a few children over the years and it's not that they are AS, or that their parents are, it's a learned behaviour. They have learned from their parents that you can have complete order in your life and anything that isn't controlled is problematic. If your parents are like that you will not grow up to be confident and secure.

But that's my off the wall theory, so forgive me for thinking out of the box!

I think that in this day and age where we live such ordered lives, and we can very easily avoid change and disorder, we can become very uncomfortable with the unknown. It's a bit like the child whose parent does everything for them - in the end they find they never learn to do anything for themselves and tell themselves that they can't. I've taught countless children how to do things that their parents say they can't do 'because they're not into that sort of thing, or they find that tricky' blabla - when actually it's just the parents wanting to keep their child within their radar of management.

I have said before, that really in the end it doesn't matter whether someone is AS or abusive, in the end it's about how it makes you (and dcs) feel - if it makes you feel crap, you have to do something about it - my guess is that when you do something is when you will find out where the fault lies.

However, I would venture to suggest that what you do about it, and how you go about it, should differ depending on whether the person you are dealing with has AS or some sort of PD - or both.

Your post itself details the complex interaction between nature and nurture. Dealing with my own unrecognised AS in the context of a family where DF also had it made my childhood quite odd.

horsetowater, your last post at 12:18:16 is very insightful and meaningful to me.

I am mostly NT (we're all on the spectrum) but DF I'm sure had more AS traits than not - and unknowingly, I chose an AS husband (now ex).

I couldn't cope with ex's behaviour (after 30 years!) but I'm absolutely positive I also wouldn't be able to cope with an NT partner (too OTT emotion-wise for me).

I think mine is both Thinking about it just now, the defining behaviour that makes me think he has PD is that he blames me for just about everything. If he doesn't blame me, he blames someone else or the cirumstances. It's never him at fault, therefore he sees no reason to change his behaviour.

allaboutthename I found when I raised the subject of my ex's lack of support he'd promise to change and be more supportive, but it was something he just couldn't do no matter how many times we discussed it

I couldn't go on with a one-dimensional marriage.

Zuzu, I can see how it gets too much in the end and the relationship has to end. DH doesn't actually see a problem, yet, however this thread has helped me realise that I'm not going crazy and his behaviour impacts me significantly.

Horsetowater, I don't feel it's control freakery (great word:)) but it's scary to contemplate. What makes me feel it's AS is that even when I know he's sad about something (recently his niece was seriously ill) he can have inappropriate expressions and he literally doesn't know what to say when someone is emotionally so he has learned a few stock phrases. He is very patient, gentle, reliable and kind and people like him although he has few friends - more acquaintances.

in the end it's about how it makes you feel - this is key, if I can't survive or thrive in the relationship then it doesn't matter what the label is. My concern is that DH won't see the problem, he was brought up by a mum who was a violent bully so he struggles with understanding what a normal relationship is.

Just popping in to add to those posters who've said (rightly) that being on the autism spectrum isn't anything like being an abusive person. It's not in response to any one post - it's just background general stuff.
Very good research just out, showing that people with autism (me being one of them) have a bit of the brain that doesn't connect up properly. The result is that it can't transfer info on relationships, body language, eye contact, gestures, tone of voice etc fast enough. Nor can it use the knowledge of those things in a common sense way fast enough.
So we can be socially clumsy and awkward...and can't make our faces do the right expressions fast enough...but goodness me we generally care deeply about those around us and would rather die than deliberately hurt someone we love.

Like all myths, there was a reason for some truly believing that autism = abusive nastiness. For a start, only the really nasty ones of us were a problem, so those were the only ones who were put forwards for diagnosis. The vast majority of quiet, gentle, lovely people on the spectrum didn't need an emergency diagnosis because of exhausted parents or despairing partners, so they were never 'on the radar'. Many have since got diagnoses, but are living quiet, gentle lives.

My dh is on the spectrum - and not at the mild end either. Neither of us are. But he loves me deeply, cares about me hugely, buys me gifts, takes me to places, wants me to be happy, spends time with me, values me for who I am...goodness me he is wonderful. And I know many more like it, too. I won't pretend it's all easy, because we both have to work hard to be really clear about what we need and want from each other - but there's no abuse.

I recognise the 'stock phrases' allaboutthename.

When I commented on the fact that our DD was planning to move nearer to us, my ex said, "That'll be nice for you."

I was a bit puzzled by this - surely it would 'be nice' for him too! Then I realised it was most likely what someone else had commented when he told them.

It's ike living with someone from another planet.

ooh don't just pop amber - or do keep on popping. This thread needs your expertise .

"historically" it was the nasty ones who got diagnoses and who are now partners to other people. Exceptions will apply. But quiet people with eccentric behaviour and a deep fascination for subjects are not the ones who end up causing havoc in classrooms and relationships and homes.

The repetitive phrase things - yes, we can do that. In fact, that's pretty much all I could do for the first 23 years of my life, and even now I can do exactly that. Why? Because most of us on the spectrum don't think in words. We think in pictures. Then have to work out which words apply. We can't 'see' the words in our head, so learn what we're supposed to say in words. Given the chance to express our feelings in our own language, it's a whole different thing. I communicate naturally by touch, natural-sign and by picture, not words. So I can come across as a pedantic knowitall or arrogant or something, apparently whereas those who know me will realise that I'm a very gentle and caring friend to absolutely everyone I meet.

Difficult things, words, when your brain can't see them.

Oh I am quite different, I think in writing and diagrams, I really do not do pictures at all, although I enjoy looking at things iyswim, it's not my thinking style. I am hyperlexic, dypraxic, slow to learn motor skills (except, funnily enough, driving). And partially face blind - I do learn eventually but have to see the same person over and over before I start to recognise them visually.

I think I use my visual processing, but in a strange way. I hear spoken words, and quite often see them printed in my mind, so does my mum, I think. The evidence is that we are very slow to get puns - the words we hear are spelt differently, so they are different, for us.

ooo I can relate to the faceblind thing, and the dyspraxia

And numbers! Also DF - we like to calculate things and work things out.

I was staying with him a few years ago, he had cooked some chicken thighs for a meal for me, my DAunt and him the previous night. I kid you not, we both stood in the kitchen the next night, trying to work out if there was enough left for the two of us, and we were going: 'well we started off with 8, everyone had one each, who had seconds...' till finally it came to me in a blinding flash! I could just go and look in the fridge and bleedin see how many were left. For me and DF the Bleedin Obvious is easily overlooked. This leads to puzzlement all round especially as (understandably in retrospect ) the NTs think we can see the obvious, because it's, well, obvious.

because that's the point where we feel we've made ourself look like an idiot

zuzu it is possible that he thought it was so obvious it would be nice for him that he didn't need to refer to himself. And he was telling you that he knew what you would feel about DD moving - it will be nice for you.

I have pissed off oh by looking at the tiles he had put up and pointing out a flaw instead of saying something nice. I thought it went without saying that I was impressed and pleased, and I also thought that my expression was giving the same message. I have had to make a sort of rule for myself - praise and thank, then point our flaws if you must.

Pink, yup .

Smum, the arrogance thing is largely social clumsiness combined with our lack of ways to use voice tone and voice loudness properly, plus our brains assume that others will really want to know whatever interesting facts we've found (oops, turns out they don't )

Interesting research recently on why autism has stayed in the gene pool. The advantages outweigh the negatives in most cases: (all generalising...) We're generally ten times more accurate than other people in spotting things that aren't right/are slightly different. That's a heck of a skill when it comes to spotting predators or tracking wild animals. We're hugely persistent, which is a heck of a skill for gathering food - we just never give up once we're on a task. We are deadly accurate at constructing stuff, which is handy for tools and building. As members of a team, we have much to offer to ensure survival. Remember that's all generalising. Exceptions apply.

As world-famous Dr Temple Grandin says (colleague of mine, also on the autism spectrum), the world needs all kinds of minds. Ours are the minds that ensure planes are built to safety standards that mean they stay in the air. Parachutes that open. Airbags that actually go off in cars in an accident. Bridges that stay upright rather than collapsing. Art that is breathtakingly detailed. Photography that captures things from an extraordinary way. Music that is stunning in its beauty and complexity. But, by gum, those same brains that can have extraordinary small areas of ability are bloomin' hopeless for guessing what the exact right thing is to say. The wiring to the "people info centre" in the brain is missing....and that people-info-centre is used to store info on possessions instead...which is why we panic ourselves silly if someone damages our stuff. Feels like someone's just hit our child (because the brain is using the Wrong Bit to store the info in).

The example of "That will be nice for you" is one of the Great Mysteries: We're rule-based, because our brain can't connect up to use common sense properly. So have to learn how to use words to be kind and empathetic. "Think of the other person - not yourself! Try to imagine what the benefit will be for them!"

So we do... and say things like, "That will be nice for you?" and then find that we've upset the person even more...because they were expecting us to think about "us as a couple" and "how nice it would be for both of us", and have now taken that a step further and maybe decided it means we hate our offspring and don't care about the relationship. It's very eek, because (if it were me) I'd have said it to try to demonstrate me thinking of, and caring about, my partner...and not with any second or third meaning at all. Just sheer clumsiness in trying to get words right. What's inside is love. It just has a hard time getting its words and actions in the right order at the right time.

If people are truly exhausted by a relationship - any relationship - then of course it's right to see if it can be improved (perhaps with specialist help)...and if it can't, of course it's right for some to admit defeat. But autism is a very real disability caused by a set of missing or superwired connections in the brain, and our clumsiness and apparent unawareness aren't a sign of natural contempt for those around us. They're a sign of how much we have to overcome to demonstrate just how much people mean to us, how much their friendships and relationships with us are valued. People like me just keep trying...and trying....and trying....and trying....and eventually we get there if we're determined enough and people around us cheer us on a bit. It helps to know what we've done wrong...but it helps even more to know what we should have done instead. In most cases, we'll try darned hard to improve, or apologise, or both.

Can I say a big thank you to all of you?
this describe so much my relationship with DH. And the pain that I've felt too. And this feeling that what he said might have been painful to me but that it has never been done deliberately.

Amber & Pink, I really appreciated your insights.

DH doesn't have a formal diagnosis. I have always chickened out from asking him to do one of these online test to get an idea if I am completely wrong or not. Bt there are lots of things that point out towards AS. And other that aren't AS signs but very clearly inappropriate reactions to stressful situations.

In the last few months, what has helped is:

• living with the premice that DH will not be able to support me emotionally. But that I also know that if I ask him for practical help, he will do it.
• avoiding 'discussions', ie talking about anything and everything and asking him for his pov. Especially as my interests have moved towards very 'fuffly'/unusual subjects. I think my DH is struggling to adapt to his 'new' wife (I have changed a lot in these last few years) and is missing the 'down to earth engineer' I was.
• stop expecting him to react as an NT partner. I am learning to accept him as he is, with his quirks and his qualities.
• for him to realize that he needed to do something about it too. I truly think that he did analyze my reactions 'the wrong way around' and did not really understand what I have been telling him for years. Then I pushed him to go and see a child psychologist for dc1 and hearing me saying these very same things but in a much more neutral way seem to have been enough to open his eyes to the situation re the children/parenting/our relationship. .

yy to amber's post :) And all power to you and your DH, peppa

No Pink, he didn't know how I would feel, that's the problem

Sorry, I'm going to hide this thread now because it just upsets me too much.

Best wishes to all of you and OP I hope you sort things out with your DH