Can Asperger's look like emotional abuse?

[NotThemCrows]

I posted on here last week, concerned about my DHs behaviour. I have read the Lundy book (fantastic- huge thanks to all those who pointed me in that direction) and recognised some of the stuff in there.

Last night I had a 1 to 1 session with our Relate counsellor for the first time (had about 4 sessions together and DH had one by himself 2 weeks ago) and she thinks that my DH may have Aspergers.

This does make a lot of sense to me, he is socially awkward, no empathy, no emotional awareness etc.

Could his major problem be Aspergers?

I was just wondering if any else has difficulties with an Aspergers DH that feels like EA.

Either way he still has anger issues, has demonstrated unacceptable behaviour and I have totally had enough of his bs and want a separation.

I am just trying to make sense of it all (or am I making excuses?)

Thoughts please

Notthemcrows, I don't think you offended anyone. Your second post was much more informative than your first - but hey this is Mumsnet & you know a good debate is always on the agenda!

For what its worth, "Your hair looks really nice, have you washed it" - is most definitely a compliment, unless of course it was said loaded with sarcasm.

If you really do think that your DH has ASD, would it be worth trying to get a diagnosis, so at least both of you know what you are dealing with?

If your second post had been your op then I don't think it would have caused such a storm. I see much clearer now what it is about your dh that is causing problems. Maybe he does gave AS and that some of his behaviours do need addressing. Tbh the examPle you give about the hair doesn't sound like emotional abuse to me.

You are clearly unhappy though and I hope you can find a solution whether tgat's staying together or separating.

Thanks everyone. My first post was a bit rushed, been very busy working etc.

I get the "Your hair looks nice" is a compliment, but followed by "have you washed it?" (does that not imply that its unusual for me to wash it and that it looked awful before? - maybe I am a tad sensitive . . .)

I have decided to quietly observe DH over the next week and let our relate counsellor (rightly or wrongly) bring it up on Tues

Then see the GP about getting a proper diagnosis, if thats what DH wants.

I know what you mean about the compliment, NorthernCrows , if it is AS he is just venturing a logical explanation as to why your hair looks nice. BTW if you had just come back from the hairdresser, he might have made the exact same remark ie 'your hair looks nice, have you washed it', the obvious (been to the hairdressers) doesn't always occur to us!

The main thing is he noticed your hair looked nice, and commented on it :)

Thanks ThePinkPussyCat, ikwym, sometimes its too easy to get lost in the fug (I am experiencing stress and anxiety at the mo, not great for seeing things rationally ) and that's why being able to get other people's perspectives on mn is sooooo great.

Also, if it is AS, rest assured that he really did think your hair looked nice!

And, should the appropriate circumstances arise, be prepared for 'your hair looks horrible, does it need a wash?' To us, we are just stating facts and being helpful!

And he did notice! Poor DP once spent a whole evening waiting for me to notice he had papered a wall in the living room earlier that day. In the end, he had to point it out (we were sitting in the living room all evening )

Hello Notthemcrows, I think I am in your situation, although we are not seeing relate (he refused). I am married to a lovely, funny, fascinating guy who dedicates his life and work to us and our 2 dss, I trust his love and loyalty - he adores us. HOWEVER........there is so much just not right.

I've searched the mumsnet site for aspergers and it comes up with many threads that I have found enlightening and have nearly concluded in my head that's what's going on. I too have many problems (and will be starting counselling soon) which have not helped at all.

I agree it is a fine and dangerous line to throw labels around when sometimes all we are doing is looking for reasons and excuses for why we are putting up with unhappiness, and IME it is true that sometimes they can be deliberately cruel as well as ignorantly.

But up until we have any concept of aspergers/autism etc how else do we interpret the hurtful behaviour? All we have is - it's his fault (EA) or it's our fault. Neither very helpful or healthy.

Realising there's a very real chance dh has a condition that explains how he can be so genuine and dedicated, yet so aloof and distant, shines a light and gives me hope in how to manage.

Like you, my dh is not diagnosed - in fact I've never raised the subject with him (too scared of one of his bad reactions), so until we reach that point mumsnet and it's discussions are my main source of information and support.

I'd love to hear more OP, if you are still posting. My list of difficult behaviours sound similar...and I'm still seeking that sense of confirmation.

Hi, subgirl happy to share my knowledge if that's any help? I'm the one with an AS DF and think I am AS myself (self diagnosis, but am Oh so sure)

Thanks TPP - I hardly know where to start....sorry....this is ending up being long

I have known him 25 yrs but feel I haven't got to know any more about him than in the 1st few yrs. I loved that he was 'fascinating' - I was excited about unpeeling the layers of him as time went on...but actually, if there is anything else there, he doesn't register it/recognise/value it, because I haven't found it.

He has no interest or curiousity into what makes people tick.

Day to day there is lots of silence - no chit chat. Nothing to say, unless it has a function.(Mind you, I've near enough given up - see below)

If I recount a story from the day, or something I've heard, I get no 'normal' reassuring or encouraging noises or back up, I usually get a blank look, often the story doesn't register, and I have to repeat bits of it. A lot of the time his face says to me - 'I just don't get it'

He has many friends and even more work colleagues who he is in regular contact with - twitter, text, email etc (but he didn't get fb at all...?) he is well regarded and connected with others but until I told him I'd like to hear a bit more about what was happening I knew nothing - no information was ever volunteered. To him it was unimportant.
(Interestingly, a few years ago, in the company of his oldest and closest group of friends, he was being his usual awkward self, when one of them turned to me and said - 'how do you put up with him?", and I noticed they all seemed to stop to hear my reply, which was unsettling)

He has no understanding of my need to 'connect' with him, that I hate feeling distant. Once when I specified 2 clear examples (one was he was away working for a few days, staying with friends that I'd not seen for ages due to having kids, and when he got back I asked how these friends were, and what they'd done over the weekend, etc and his answer was 'nothing much'. He wouldn't /couldn't be bothered? to elaborate. The other was one night he received a phone call from a friend and he had a long, obviously hilarious conversation for about 10 minutes, all this time I'm thinking I can't wait to hear what's so funny - and when I asked what was said his answer was -'oh, nothing' ) - and he apologised for those examples, but seems oblivious he does this on a day to day basis.

He is incredibly sensitive to 'criticism' - I have tried so many ways of approaching him, most ending up with him cracking up

Once 'riled' - he usually misses the whole point of the argument and bombards me with the 'facts' as he sees them, repeating them over and over until he gets me to 'agree'. To keep the peace, I used to - but now I say to him we are at the end of our tether, that we've solved nothing. This is when once I suggested counselling, but he said he wouldn't.

But because we 'rub' along ok, ie function ( one of his favourite words and states - ie if things don't function the way he wants/needs- eg shoe racks, coat hooks, drawers opening, he doesn't question that this poor state of our marriage is a constant, and seems a bit surprised if I mention problems we have.

I now know to speak levelly, with no hint of emotion or blame, and just state what it is I have to say, and walk away. This actually seems to work, and he can (suddenly) accept what I've said and behave differently.

He has had some terrible anger meltdowns, targeted at me, (bad), in front of the children, (very bad) and at the kids (eldest ds,10, in particular, since he was 5) (absolutely awful)

I have managed to get him to see he was like this - he has no explanation why other than he gets frustrated - and this has almost been eliminated - thank god.

My huge issue, and drawback in this relationship, is that I have, due to a dominant mum, amongst other things, self esteem problems, and have never stood up to anyone the way I should - but when I saw my kids being bawled at, and treated in really inappropriate, unemotional ways, I had to gather up every ounce of me to stand up to him - which just turned the heat up, and drained me of any energy I had left. We have had in some ways an awful few years that I am deeply worried has had a lasting impact on ds1's self esteem and confidence.

I've worried for years that my behaviour has driven him to his. I can't be easy to deal with by any means. At the moment I am waiting on counselling, and would probably describe myself as depressed.

But does this sound anything like as?
Does this ring any bells with anyone?

The balance of this person is outlined on my earlier post.

I could go on and on, (I know, I have already :) )

OP - sorry to 'hijack' - although as I said, I think we may be in a similar boat.....?

Thanks if you've managed to stick with this.

A shame this thread descended into acrimony so quickly, I do believe the OP was just wondering (as was probably her Counsellor) - either way, I think it was just flagging an important issue. I have one such issue with a relative. Are they "high functioning aspergers"? or just abusive?

I wish I had seen your counsellor when I went to Relate counselling with my DH several years ago.

I've been married for nearly 17 years - and we've had so many problems. About 18 months ago DH did some online tests that suggested it was highly likely he was AS (Asperger's Syndrome) and we've seen a specialist who confirmed he was a likely candidate, but DH has refused to get formally tested . After doing extensive reading (I recommend Tony Attwood's guide to Asperger's Syndrome) I have no doubt that he is AS.

It's a very difficult thing to live with. Some AS men can be very caring and loving - but they can also be very cold, selfish, socially awkward and obsessive about their personal interests. They can be highly intelligent but completely ignorant of your emotional needs. My DH also has anger issues too, and he can very very scary when he loses control.

Good luck to you, please email me if you would like to chat.

actually, yes; it can.

pm me if you wana talk and hear what i have to say.

Thanks everyone for replying/responding. Those who invited me to pm them, I will do, it'll be useful.

Our counsellor (rightly or wrongly, but most importantly, helpfully) suggested ASD to DH who accepted it very well. We have been reading up about the subject, he's done some questionnaires etc which suggest that he has an ASD. It makes perfect sense to both of us. He is making an appt to see the GP etc. I feel relieved that I am not going mad, and that he hasn't been meaning to be hurtful etc but exasperated that things may never improve and that both of us may find effective change very difficult.

Hi Subgirl, no probs re hijacking, sounds like we really are in a similar situation.

I know exactly what you mean about the dc's. That is my/our biggest problem. We just can't seem to parent together. I am totally at the end of my tether. He just doesn't get it. He wants a formula for parenting, and I can't give him one. I feel like I have to parent him, parenting our dc's iyswim. It's terrible.

Can anyone out there help me re parenting with an ASD DP? I am considering that it may be easier to be a single parent. I was going to start a separate thread about this but maybe someone can tell me if its possible/bearable? Thanks

I can help out in terms of being the AS daughter of an AS man. It made growing up doubly confusing as we would both get hold of the wrong end of the stick in different ways, and have endless logical arguments which were based on opposing premises! (This still happens, but much less often now, and I am nearly 60 and he's in his 90's!)

How about one of you puts together a sort of digest of what comes out of the PM discussion, and post it on here. Heck, maybe we could even have a Families with AS people in them Support Thread?

Or I'd be happy to write it up. If you state the family number

(for example, my birthfamily would be DF(AS), DM(?), me(fAS), brother (mAS?)

• yours would need to include the ages of all family members (roughly)

and give some examples then maybe I could give you my take on parent-child interaction, I have had nearly 60 years to think about this!

Whaddaya think, guys?

Sounds interesting PinkPussy, A thread for families with AS members would be great as well

That sounds great TPP, thank you!
I have often come on here looking for clues to build up my own 'diagnosis', I know there must be many of us unsure and wondering what we're dealing with, and more importantly, how to deal with it. things are a bit busy here for me for a while but i'll get back to you/this thread.
Anyone else?
OP?

Hi both. I also believe my FIL, MIL, BIL and possibly his wife have similar issues. Not to mention stbx (or ex, not sure which at time of writing) who seems to be nasty with it. (I think we have done each other no good, tbh, and I think MIL spoilt him).

Now you may think this is a case of me seeing AS and ADD everywhere, just cos I know the signs and am overgeneralising. But I think it very likely, especially from reading many threads on abusive relationships, and from reading Stately Homes, that we were drawn to seek each other out. It is at the least puzzling to grow up with AS, in yourself, a parent, or sibling, and worse still if there is more than one of you! We are bruised by the world by the time we grow up, and seek as a partner someone like us or someone like a parent. Often with not so hilarious consequences.

DD has many similar patterns to me, however she is a social animal, respected by her friends for her techie abilities. DS is hard working and responsible, I don't see any AS or ADD patterns in him. So I think in DD's case I may have lifted a curse which has led me to make many mistakes in life.

Anyone got any specifice difficulties I might consider, and I'll have a think and write a reply, to get things started? I have lots and lots of examples to draw on for comparison

Onwards and upwards

Oh my goodness, I just came across this and had to post. I need to go to bed so will read more when I can but my OH (ex really) has aspergers and i'm looking at leaving because its like emotional abuse.
He has never been diagnosed but its obvious he has it. He says things that are offensive but he thinks he is being nice. When he says nice things his tone is nasty so it comes out horrible. Its so draining and miserable.
His dad is the same, as is his eldest son. I'm worried about my sons too but i'll have to wait and see

oh thank god there are others saying what I say each time when they think because their dh has AS because they are abusive...I keep getting slated saying I know nought about AS AS does not = abusive men. You can get AS men who are abusive yes like the next man who is EA...but it is not part of the diagnosis...they are not malnipulating control of women in way EA men are...of themselves yes but not in anyway a bullying/abusive way to others.
I really think people with AS are getting a bad name on here with titles DH must have AS because he is EA' etc (ok not that title but similar suggestions and makes me feel :()
My ds has ASD and I am trying to spread the word...AS does not = Abusive man
Rant over!

I do the same thing, I am really good at apologising, if I happen to realise in time. When people on AIBU are advised to reply to put-downs with some challenge on whether they intended to be rude, I have had to learn to say. as a follow up to something I've said 'Oh sorry I hope that didn't sound rude, it wasn't meant to be.' Of course, I don't always notice if people have taken offence, or might not realise even belatedly that I could be taken wrongly. And then, if they haven't taken offence, I run the risk of being thought mad or weird for even making that apology! I have to self-monitor what I have just said, which is an advance on rehearsing everything once in my head before I say it, which throws conversational timing out, and then finding it's taken the wrong way anyway.

All of which sounds very convoluted, and it is. Welcome to my world, it's a way of thinking I have had to evolve, in order to improve my social skills, for I am a very sociable person. I like logic and words, I think this is how AS is more likely to show up in females. Even in old age, MIL could still do the Telegraph cryptic crossword every morning. And was also self-monitoring, it was her way of checking she was not in the early stages of dementia.

I'm not too good at getting the tone right, and if I try to, I tend to forget what it is I want to say, or I get less articulate. My tone reflects my stress, and my opinion of the importance or justice of the content of what I'm saying, the words. And try as I might, if things are very important, I tend to talk very loudly. I am not actually shouting, but other people think I am

Any of this ring any bells?

My initial thoughts on the Aspergers issue is - yes, I could call my stbx Aspergers, he's always been like this and would be a text book case.

But whether or not he is abusive is a different matter. He is choosing, on a daily basis to cling onto me KNOWING all the time that it hurts me and damages me.

He knows the damage because I tell him loud and clear and he sees my pain - others have pointed it out too.

Whether or not he has AS is irrelevant - he is prepared to see me suffer so that he can continue the relationship and in my view that's at best selfish and at worst abusive.

For that reason I prefer to use the word narcissist - I think the AS label is easier to work with, but it doesn't explain away the fact that he is prepared to ruin my and my childrens happiness for his own benefit.

I think some of you should look into narcissistic personality disorder as well as Aspergers, there are a lot of similarities. I'll be back tomorrow hopefully - glad I found this thread too.

NPD is merely a label for a cluster of behaviours and beliefs. One theory of PD is that following emotional trauma in childhood, sufferers become stuck at the age of the trauma, emotionally speaking, and I think there may be something in that. I don't believe it is thought to be due to differences in the brain, like AS, and is a result of nurture, not nature.

That is why I would like to focus on what AS and ADD are like. Stbx may well have NPD traits as well as AS and ADD. I'm pretty sure the other relatives I mentioned were not nasty in the same way stbx is, though, although I suppose they could have been (who knows) when alone with their partner. Let us presume innocence of narcissism until proof of guilt (people with AS while not innocent, exactly, can be very naive )

Could we have an MN "quiche" - ie, an ongoing regular thread - for people with an adult or adults with Aspergers in the family?

This could be its inception. Like others on here, I would find it helpful.