first time domestic violence advice wanted

[J4J]

Should he stay or leave? I am so confused. I am married to a usually loving husband and have 4 small children. 2 days ago he became unusually angry and punched me in the face - I was knocked unconscious. It happened in front of all the children. When I came round my 4 year old daughter was holding me and crying shouting wake up. When I looked at her her first words were 'oh mummy I thought you were dead'. This is out of character for my husband. He was initially in denial and told me to get off the floor and stop pretending. It was not until my dad phoned him at work the following day and told him I was in hospital getting x-rayed that I think he realised what he did. This is a first offence so the police after arresting him when he got back from work released him with a caution. Do I let him stay in the house now. Part of me still loves him very much and another part of me is completely shocked and upset. I am really hurting inside and want things just to be normal. Statistically it may happen again but I'm not sure it will as he is a good man who needs to manage his anger but yet he knocked me out....

Given that justice has been served in that he was cautioned for the criminal act he perpetrated against you, he is free move back into the marital home at any time of his choosing and the police will be powerless to remove him at your request unless, of course, he gives them cause to do so.

I would suggest that you instruct your solicitor to apply for occupation and non-molestation Orders at the earliest opportunity - application can be made ex parte (i.e without his prior knowledge) and, given the evidence (your injury and his caution), there will be no impediment to you obtaining these Orders nor, I suspect, to the Court granting continuance at the eventual fHearing of your application.

As I stated earlier in your post, and as numerous past and current guests of Her Majesty can attest, one punch can kill.

By great good fortune, the one punch that he delivered with such force that it rendered you unconscious did not kill you but it has, nevertheless, irrevocably changed your life.

That one punch set in motion a chain events which have propelled you into another world; a world you may have read or heard about but never dreamed you would find yourself inhabiting, namely, the world of women who have suffered domestic violence at the hands of abusive men.

That one punch has also served to awaken you to the fact that the 'usually loving husband' you believed you were married to now appears to have owed a lot to wishful thinking on your part.

It is inevitable and entirely natural that you are feeling a sense of the surreal at the present time. Your mind and body have had a massive shock in many more ways than one, and it will take time for you to process all of the new knowledge and the new emotions that have been visited on you by that one punch.

Obtaining two vital Court Orders will give you and your dc the protection you urgently need to prevent him exercising his current freedom of choice about where he resides, and also will give you the validation you need to be able to see off insensitive and ill-informed individuals like your MIL with aplomb.

As for your fear that obtaining these Orders might 'anger' him; regard it as a first test of the sincerity of his alleged intention to seek help to change his behaviour.

You know you CAN do this - and you know that you HAVE to if you are ever to know peace of mind again.

beacause he hit her and they was baby involved the ss got involved she had to get rid ,thank god

Thanks Lueji - the test advice taken. He called last night and it was the longest conversation we have had since it happened. He started by saying that he will be coming on Saturday afternoon with his mother to see the children. He didn't ask me when would be best just assumed. I promptly told him that i did not want to see his mother and that I had a friend that could be there for the visit instead. I also pointed out that my dd has a party on Saturday afternoon so if he wanted to see all the children he would be better coming on sunday afternoon. He didn't comment and then went on about how hard it is not seeing the children (it has not even been 2 weekends yet) and that he didn't want to see them out on a walk but in their home environment where they would be most natural. I know what he is saying but feel he is diregarding my feelings about needing space. I also don't want to say that actually it may make my legal case more difficult if it sadly goes this way further down the line by letting him into the house. I want to know he has changed and to take him back from neutral ground. By letting him back into the house it is like saying well I'm going to have you back anyway but you need to do these things first. I can't explain this to him as he doesn't know I have been to a solicitor. I do hope he can change but if he can't I want the other option too. I got a text from MIL this morning asking if she can come and help with the children next week. I replied that 'i didn't think it would be helpful to see family for the time being but thank you for offering'. I just feel too weird to see MIL when i haven't sorted it out with her son at all yet and I can't and really don't want to talk to her about it. H calling tonight again. I asked for the family car for half term - we did have a family holiday booked to go and stay with an old friend of mine in Devon. I still intend to go but just without him. I have 2 friends who have offered to drive me down in our family car. James just called me now and has said fine about the car but only if he hands over the car so he can give instructions about it. He also said that he hopes i am not using the kids against him. He seems defensive and I think is thinking that i'm being difficult. I'm not i'm just desperate for space from him - and if we didn't have children I could just say I don't want to see you for the time being. I don't feel he understands how much he hurt me.

J4J
I have been reading since this thread started but you were getting so much good advice that I didn't have much to add.

Right now, though, I think from what you're saying that it might help you if I pointed out: he's an abusive man, and as you're starting to realise, abusive with more than just his fists.

So it's not that he doesn't understand how much he's hurt you - he knows full well that he's hurt you, he intended to hurt you. It's that he's panicking that you are wising up to the abuse, and he is desperate to re-establish control over you. Either by foisting his mother (a proxy control/observe figure) into your life, or by getting himself into your company as soon as he possibly can.

he can see that you're starting to break free, to look at him and his behaviour as it really is, and he doesn't want that to happen.

he understands very well what's happening, I'm afraid. And he wants to stop it. That's what is going on here.

Don't let him into the house. Get legal protection to keep him out. And never, ever see him without one of YOUR friends there. He is not safe to be around.

j4j have you spoken to your children about seeing their father and how they feel?
i do think you need to get their feelings - they might feel safer as well with seeing him outside in neutral territory like a soft play or library.
what does the four year old say?
and the one who had bad dreams?

you do not have to to let him in the hosue to see the DC.
the Dc may feel more strange about it.

he can see the Dc at soft play/library etc. see how that goes before letting him in home. guage the DC reactions.

stay firm.

the biggest mistakes i made were

1. letting ex back into our home as i fell for his manipulations and promises to repect my space and only stay a short time etcetc
2. when i left to another rented flat with DC, letting him in there to see DC.

very big mistakes and espec from dc point of view. i so wish someone had specifically told me "dont do it". so i am telling you now.

please please dont make this mistake.

DC can see their father elsewhere. see how it goes over a few visits.

you are not stopping contact with DC/father. you are and can make sure it safe for them and you .

ps if he makes fuss about car then worst thing is that you hire a car for friend to drive.
dont be held hostage over the car

ps it is chilling that he suggests you are using the Dc against him and not at all acknowldedging what the Dc saw and what your four year thought about you being dead.

J4J I just went cold reading your post - please read everything that blackcurrant has written above over and over and over again.

He is pressuring you and he is using his mother to pressure you. As it stands, he sounds like he has absolutely no intention of taking any steps whatsoever to change who he is. In fact, is sounds more like he asserting himself even more.

These are the key things in your post that stand out to me:

"he didn't want to see them out on a walk but in their home environment where they would be most natural. I know what he is saying but feel he is diregarding my feelings about needing space."

It won't be natural for your children at all. It will the first time they've seen him since he punched you, and I can't imagine what memories and flashbacks that will bring to them. And, yes, he is TOTALLY disregarding your feelings about needing space.

"He also said that he hopes i am not using the kids against him. He seems defensive and I think is thinking that i'm being difficult."

This ^ is his attempting to turn the current situation back on you, make it your fault, accuse you of make life difficult and ultimately just further proof that he is a well-practised abuser.

YOU don't need to use the kids against him - he's done that himself. They were there when he knocked you unconscious and manhandled them.

And you are well within your rights to make everything as difficult for him as possible if that is the only way you're going to keep your DC's and yourself safe.

You've got some great advice here:legally, you will make it difficult for yourself in the future if you let him in your house. His visits with the children need to take place ONLY if (a) the DC are happy to see him in the first place (their well-being is so important, and you don't want to put them in a situation with their father if they're scared of him) and (b) if he agrees to neutral territory.

When he calls tonight, make sure you've spoken to the DC first. If they're happy to see him, then just keep repeating ad infinitum and ad nauseum that he WILL NOT be coming to the house, and that he WILL be seeing them on neutral ground.

If he protests, then tell him he cannot see them. If he accuses you of trying to manipulate the situation, state it clearly again - he can see them very easily if he agrees to your terms, which you AREN'T changing.

Stay strong, you've been so utterly incredible up until now. You need to continue to find that strength from somewhere and draw down on it. Don't let him bully you into making a decision that may prove costly in the future.

Op Google Stockholme syndrome , i think this will explain a lot .

For the minuite i would avoid any contact , telephone or in person . You are in shock , feeling vulnerable and he is desperate to be around you , simply to regain control of you and convince you are wrong .

Lots of good advice here.

Re neutral territory: last night, J and I discussed the possibility of her husband meeting her and the children at my home (in the same town J lives). I'm now thinking this isn't really neutral and therefore is it fair on J's husband? Not that he's been remotely fair but...should we look for somewhere else to meet?

Also wondered, if J decides to put Occupational order and/or non-molestation order in place, presumably her H will be notified of this? I do understand what J is saying about not wanting to back him into a corner but at the same time, I am hoping she can protect herself.

Sorry J to be asking qs on your behalf again but there are so many things we have talked and wondered about I want to make sure we don't miss anything!

I would go with a meeting at your house , if thats what the children want . I dont really see a need for J to meet with him at this stage . She will likeley feel differantly after she has seen him and i think it important for her to have some space and time to reflect . Unless of course there is a specific reason .

waterlego from my perspective, I guess that neutral territory would be some kind of public place, but your house should do fine too. I wouldn't give a crap if it's not entirely fair on J's husband, but that's just me!

I also think it's important that J isn't there, as it's supposed to be about seeing the kids. By the sounds of his behaviour over the last day, I would be extremely worried about him getting access to J, as he's definitely starting to feel her and his control of her slip away and will be wanting to assert that control again.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm sure someone upthread (was it you, vicar ?) said that the orders could be put in place "ex parte" (i.e. without the other party knowing). I expect the very reason for this is because it protects people like J.

waterlego if you happy to host and the children want to see him then by all means - probably tho he will say no not at waterlegos....

stuff being fair to the husband it is about the CHILDREN not him!!

ask the children first - do they even want to see him after what they witnesed?

dont run around after the father unless the children are demanding to see him.

what are the children saying ?
do they even want to see him right now?

waterlego do you think J's children would be happy meeting their dad at your house, with you there? Do they know you well?

I think J shouldn't be there. I think her H is desperate to regain control of her, make her believe that the whole situation is her fault, and generally get back to the point where he can hit her again and she will think she deserves it. I think she needs to protect herself from his manipulation as cleverly and bravely as she is protecting her children from his fists.

please tell J, by the way, that I greatly, greatly admire what she is doing and wish her all the very best.

Oh yes, and contact is H's contact with the children (which, after what they've been through, should be at their request.)

H doesn't have any right to contact with J. Please be very careful, J, the time when an abuser senses you trying to break free is often the time when they get desperate and nasty. Please take care. x

^ More "here here" for what blackcurrants said.

You are being very strong, J, but your H is going to start upping then ante now that you're taking action and moving out of his control. Please be careful.

J, here is a quick link for ex parte occupation and non-molestation orders. www.womensaid.org.uk/domestic-violence-survivors-handbook.asp?section=000100010008000100330002 You certainly would qualify for both, given your assault and his caution.

You should talk to your solicitor about whether your husband ought to see your children. You mentioned that he has been abusive towards them--it might not be in their interest to see him. And do they even want to see him?

You should do your utmost to keep your solicitor in the loop. Ask him/her what you should and should not to do, so you do not weaken your case.

keep strong

Hi J4J

I've been offline for a couple of days. Interesting to see your progress. Well done. I'm another voice saying everything should be on your terms now. I also think MiL should be kept well away until she apologises for not supporting a victim of violence and acknowledges her selfish reasons for that.

Regarding neutral territory -MCDonalds! anywhere but not your house.

Court orders etc. The only person who should fear setting these up, is someone who cannot comply.

Why do you 'need instructions' about the car That sounds ridiculously like a ploy to force you to have contact. Can waterlego take these 'instructions' ?

Tell him he can write the car instructions down, and leave them in the glove compartment.

Can you move contact to email so he no longer phones you? Or perhaps get a new sim which you use for every day, keeping the old one just for him. That way you can give yourself a time each week where you put the old sim in your phone and get his texts/calls etc.

You are doing really brilliantly. Any news on those Orders?

I took it to mean that J's husband wants to give instructions to whoever is going to be driving the car (it won't be J). Which could be interpreted as a bit controlling I guess, although my H would possibly be the same and he isn't a controlling man.

Have just asked dh (I'm a non-driver). He says he would want to tell someone things like the brakes are v sharp, steering pulls to the right a bit, no central locking, this gear's a bit sticky etc.

That's what I thought Jux- not necessarily sinister.

Pressed post too soon. Just meant to add, that seems pretty normal and indeed safety conscious, but these things can still be easily written down.

PLEASE instruct your solicitor to apply for the two VITAL emergency Court orders on Monday or very shortly thereafter.

If the application is made ex parte your h will not be served with notice of the proceedings before the Court hears your case; after the Orders have been granted, he will be served with copies and given a date, usually within 28 days of the application, for a full Hearing of the matter at which time he can enter a defence against their continuance - I feel confident in saying that, given the circumstances, any defence he files will fail.

I understand that you are scared that obtaining injunctions against him will anger him but as for 'backing him into a corner', I trust you will see that it is his actions that have backed you into a corner in which you have no choice but to take this action to protect both yourself and the dc.

If, after he has been served with the Orders, he remonstrates with you simply point out the above - if necessary, repeat ad nauseum until the message get through to him - and then simply adopt the tried and trusted 'all I've done is act on my solicitor's advice and if you have a problem with that please take it up with him/her direct'.

As for waterlego's very kind offer to facilitate contact in her own home, IMO this would place an unnecessary strain on all of the parties concerned and I would therefore suggest you insist that, for the foreseeable future, all/any contact takes place in an entirely neutral environment such as a play centre, childfriendly cafe, etc and that waterlego accompanies you - if she is willing to do so.

I would further suggest that you do not engage in any conversation with him in respect of your relationship, whether past, present, or future, during any contact sessions.

From what you have said of his current state of mind, it may be that you are best advised to ensure that any communication between you conducted via your respective solicitors until such time as he is able to comprehend the full implications and ramifications of his behaviour

Re Social Services visit to your home yesterday, what has been their input with regard to the dc? SS have the power to request him to remain away from the home but, unfortunately, there can be considerable regional variation as to whether ss departments are willing to exercise this power and you may have drawn a short straw with your local authority.

With regard to your dc having contact with their father, you should be led by them and if any of the dc do not wish to see him at the present time I would suggest you accord with their wishes and do not attempt to jolly or otherwise coerce them into seeing him.

If any/all of the dc express a wish to see him, any/all contact must take place outside of their home until both they and you are confident that he does not present any risk. As I suspect you are beginning to understand, it may be a very considerable time before you are able to reach that point and, in the interim, it would be extremely unwise for you to rely on any promises he may make in this respect.

With regard to use of the car, I would suggest you take the train which should not present too many difficulties providing you can rely on a friend or organise a taxi to take you to the nearest mailine station for direct rail travel to your destination and pick you up on your return.

Given that you are planning to be away from home during the forthcoming half-term, I would STRONGLY advise and urge you to obtain emergency injunctions at the very earliest opportunity as, no matter what verbal assurances he may give, it is probable that he will use your absence to reinstall himself in the marital home.