Porn. How do you honestly feel about it?

[Biggem]

I mean we all know men are going to look whether we like it or not.
But, I want (need) to know how other women feel about it, and I'm to scared to ask my friends incase I turn out to be the only one who has issues with it.

Any porn is fine, or is it when they start going on the live things (internet, not the shows in amsterdam) that it would bother you? Or aslong as ur still getting it u don't care it's only when they'd rather watch it than come and bump uglies with u!)

Fran: there is evidence that this is happening, but no evidence that it isn't happening at all. Even pornographers admit that there is ?some? exploitation in the industry.

Freya: you don't know if what you're watching is coerced porn, but we do know that some porn is so you may be. Your call, but at least be honest about your choice. I never said that because some porn is bad, all porn is, but I do think that because some porn is 'bad', I won't take the risk that what I choose to watch is ok. What I mean by ?bad? by the way, is exceptionally violent, coerced, dangerous, degrading and anything that hints of paedophilia (?barely legal?) and racist (?black bitches? etc...).

How do we know that some porn is not ok? Because women in the industry have told us. You can decide that's not concrete enough evidence for you, but it is for me. And guess what, I'm an academic researcher at a top university so I know how to read evidence. I have some issues with Dines, but her book is certainly not based merely on the accounts of friends. A lot of the research in there is very robust and is taken seriously by scholars in the field. I find the idea that oral testimony is somehow dubious really puzzling and frankly unintellectual. How do you think contemporary sociology, anthropology research is undertaken?

What if?

What if there is a porn film with a girl who looks 18? What if she is 14?

Something else to think about

This desire to separate 'good porn' from 'bad porn' is intellectually dishonest.

As TheBrandyButterflyEffect says, feature porn is gateway porn, it is used to groom. So when Mr and Mrs Average indulge in a little naughty but lite porn watching to spice up their sex lives, they are creating demand.

Demand is created for girls and women who will consent to being filmed having sex in exchange for money. Women who need money, and who have been sold the glamour empowering myth, see this sort of feature porn as being an option for them. They won't do any of the hardcore stuff.

So they get an agent (it is almost impossible to work in porn without one) and they fill out a form with a list of acts they are willing to do. Those acts all have a price tag - vanilla girl on girl sex pays less then group sex with several men. Anal sex pays more than oral. Double penetration and especially double anal carry even higher price tags. And the agent gets a percentage of the women's earnings. If she doesn't work he doesn't earn. If she sucks some cock he earns a bit, if she gets face fucked and does some double anal he earns rather more.

So she shows up on set ready to do a scene and then the producer announces that they are going to do one of the acts that isn't on her list. She either does it or doesn't get paid. If she doesn't get paid neither does the agent, she will find it difficult to get work, she will have a reputation for being unreliable and unprofessional. And she's probably about 18 or 19 years old, the only woman in the room, she's probably naked and she's being coerced by a group of older men who do this sort of manipulation for a living. So she does a shot or takes a toke or a snort and does the scene. A few months later she's doing ATM and DPs, she got STDs and substance abuse issues.

This story is told time and time and time again by people like Shelley Lubben and other women who have exited porn.

They talk about dissociating as a technique to get through scenes, they talk about how once your boundaries have been broken you start to feel that you 'might as well' do stuff you said you wouldn't before - you're a whore already right?

There is no 'good porn' and 'bad porn' - there is no vacuum. There is just porn, the multi million dollar industry which needs a steady supply of young fresh woman. Mr and Mrs Average are just as much part of the process as anyone else who is involved.

And for those who think that hardcore porn is not popular - just visit one of the websites at the top of the results and check out the number of views for vidoes such as the ones I listed above - there are hundreds of thousands of views for the videos, and there are countless videos - somebody must be wanking to this stuff.

Sorry to have left this discussion, which has become very interesting, I got the shits.
Anyway, just to address SolidGoldStockingFiller's reply to my last post, the reason I say that society has never been so misogynistic is because I do think the whole argument that "women have never had it so good" is a red herring and false. Yes women now have the vote and we can - with a fight - become MPs and hold down jobs even after marriage and kids.

However the more we have fought for our rights in society the more, it seems to me, that patriarchy has fought back in the most violent way. Sex attacks have increased, we now have date rape, sexual assault in the workplace, sexual harrassment, even children are sexually assaulting other children. Then you have levels of violence against women, not just in the home but in public places. Porn which used to be largely confined to titillation is, as Gail Dines rightly observes, becoming more and more extreme and violent.
Facebook groups confirms this hatred towards women, sexual threats against women bloggers, etc. So yes, women in some sense have come a long way but in another we have taken a step backwards.

I know many of you criticise Gail Dines for lack of research and I agree with Charbon that this clamouring for data to back up an argument on porn is pretty useless because, as Beachcomber says all the evidence is there on Google, but Dines is right - mainstream porn is becoming more violent and disturbingly centred on younger women. If you had a timeline of porn from 1900 to 2000 you'll see massive changes that do seem to take effect as women gain more power in society.

The attitude that those who don't approve of porn are frigid and prudish is just society's way of trying to normalise porn, so that if you don't like it you are not normal. That argument is used time and time again to silence critics or humiliate them into staying quiet. You can love having relationships, love men and love sex without approving of porn.

Totally agree with everything Beachcomber has said. I watched the first 10 minutes of the video on your link and felt I'd had enough. It's not sexy to be called 'bitch', 'whore' and 'slag' while gagging on a cock with his hands around your neck. That must hurt. Plus to advertise the DA with 'these girls will need adult nappies after we're finished with them' is violence and hatred; it's torture actually.

Don't get me started on sleezebag Larry Flint and his effing first amendment rights. I know I live in the UK under a different constitution but the internet has seen his 'rights' dispersed globally.

"You can love having relationships, love men and love sex without approving of porn."

And the reverse is equally true - you can have loving relationships, love men and women and love sex, while approving of porn

Maybe Franziska - as a woman, you cannot have equality though.

Either women are the sex class or they are not.

I prefer not.

Either black women have the same status and respect as white women or they do not.

I prefer that they do.

Either incest and having sex with under-age girls is frowned upon or not.

I prefer that it is.

Either we condone rape myths or we don't.

I prefer that we don't.

You don't get to pick and choose which bits of porn you get to defend. Defending porn is to defend sexism, racism, violence against women, paedophilia, rape, violence against women and girls, trafficking, sexual abuse and sexual harassment.

No doubt there are people who use porn and retain healthy sex lives and attitudes. Good for them - they are alright. They are shitting on all the women and children who are damaged in porn though.

The price some people are willing to put on an orgasm is unbelievable.

Thanks for following the link Dworkin - it was posted by forkful originally, I just reposted it because everyone was ignoring it in favour of going on about 'ethical porn' and 'good porn'.

Porn isn't a good industry of course, but then neither are most. There are so many things to fight against. For instance, eating meat. Buying cheap clothes. Food that isn't fair trade. Driving instead of walking. Not recycling. Not helping any charities. But people are never going to say they'll willing to sacrifice all these things for a better planet. Some will, most won't. Porn sites are bigger than any other kind.

Condoning porn is a bit like condoning drug use. There are a few people out there who might only use the odd bit of cocaine every now and then for pleasure, but they are buying into part of an industry that damages millions of lives around the world, which is rife with corruption and violence.

Porn is the same. There are millions of women and children trafficked to supply an unprecendented demand for porn. Women who are forcibly hooked on drugs so that they'll perform for their next hit. Prostitutes who put their lives in danger everytime they go out onto the streets, young teenage porn stars who have barely reached adulthood yet who have experienced just about every degrading act you can think of.

By participating in this you are creating a demand and that demand will be fulfilled by major porn barons who will put nothing before profit.
So yes, you might be ok Jack, but screw the rest of them huh? (excuse the pun)

So stevies, your attitude is that they is fuck all we can do about it and there are so many things to concentrate on (such as making sure chickens lead good lives) that we might as well forget trying to change things and just sit back and let the abuse happen? Good attitude.

Thanks :)

SirCliffRichard, you have a very agressive attitude, it's not a good way of getting people to understand your point of view.

Don't you think that chickens deserve good lives? I do. I pick my battles, yes. Everyone does.
I never said there's nothing we can do. Complaining on Mumsnet isn't going to help, no. I think if porn was much much more regulated, that would be a good step. But there's just no way it's just going to go away or be banned.

You also have to remember most people who star in porn are there because they want to be, they paid shit loads and if there's a market it for it why not.

I've enjoyed porn in the past with my XH, but don't think my new bf would be impressed at the mo. He's a little sensitive. ;)

So much black and white thinking. The world is a lot more complex and nuanced.

Either women are the sex class or they are not.
Huh? That sort of thing only applies if you're unlucky enough to be stuck in the company of unpleasant misogynistic men. And even then they can often be reminded that you're more than that with a bit of intelligent conversation and a shut down of any potentially flirtatious body language. (OK, thankfully, and admittedly I've never had to deal with such people in a long term situation such as work colleagues.)
It's certainly not a permanent state of being for all women as a group in modern western society. Most people are sexual to varying degrees at times and less sexual at others; it's not some kind of binary.

You don't get to pick and choose which bits of porn you get to defend. Defending porn is to defend sexism, racism, violence against women, paedophilia, rape, violence against women and girls, trafficking, sexual abuse and sexual harassment.
So you don't think that, even on a theoretical levell, it would be possible for there to be any form of porn which doesn't include these?
What about porn featuring performers who were a real life couple at the time the film was made (eg Joanna Angel and James Deen)?
And what about gay male porn made by men who are not coerced?

Everyday at your attitude at calling new BF sensitive. It's that kind of idiocy that makes those who don't like porn feel we are weird!

Interestingly, if drug use was legalised, there would be a lot less problem with prostitution.

Look, most porn is legal and you can watch it if it's really that important to you. But please stop insulting my intelligence with these nonsense arguments. It's almost beyond belief that some of you actually think that what you say is consistent and/or logical. Tell the truth: your sexual pleasure is more important than any potential damage caused by or in the making of porn. That?s really what it boils down to. None of you deny that abuse exists in the industry yet you will try any argument to justify your collusion in it. If you cared enough you?d stop and/or make your own ethical porn. Insisting that porn should be ethical will not make it so.

I think a lot of women hide behind 'it's degrading and awful' when really they just don't like it and don't want their husbands watching it. Of course there are the people who really care, but I do wonder, who here is campaigning to change conditions for sex workers?

And Freya spectacularly misses the point yet again

What Jenny says.

How is that a low though? Or do animals not get rights, because they're maybe not as intelligent as us. They still feel pain.

Not all men are into porn, why do some women think this?

My dh isn't and never has been. It would be the death knell on our relationship if he was.

'Having a wank to explicit material'? Is that your real problem? I was under the impression it was the mistreatment and abuse of women.