Porn. How do you honestly feel about it?

[Biggem]

I mean we all know men are going to look whether we like it or not.
But, I want (need) to know how other women feel about it, and I'm to scared to ask my friends incase I turn out to be the only one who has issues with it.

Any porn is fine, or is it when they start going on the live things (internet, not the shows in amsterdam) that it would bother you? Or aslong as ur still getting it u don't care it's only when they'd rather watch it than come and bump uglies with u!)

The 'mythical creatures' set up their website and everything

I didn't mention blood diamonds and clothing-industry sweatshops as a way of going 'Waaah, the world is evil and there's nothing anyone can do.' I mentioned them as a way of demonstrating that consumer pressure can be applied to reduce exploitation and slavery, and that there should be a way of applying such pressure to the production of porn. And that this is a better solution than banning all depictions of sexual activity produced for entertainment purposes.

Charbon - hardly any hardcore porn gets made in the UK, so that may be why UK unions make little difference to pornography.
A great deal of porn gets made in the US, and no, porn actors can not join e.g. SAG.

I too am happy to Mr Little successfully prosecuted, and delighted if he's prevented from running his 'business', but I think the reasons for the prosecution matter quite a bit. He had been unsuccessfully prosecuted for obscenity at least once before the last time when he was successfully convicted, and following an earlier unsuccessful prosecution he was able to 'improve' his product by adding extras to his films in which actresses talked about how much they'd 'enjoyed' the production process. (Yes, really.) And of course during those years before his eventual conviction he was continuing abusing w2omen and selling his product. And going further in persuading 'viewers' that no 'abuse' was taking place. (There's more that could be said about the death of an actress who'd been used in his films, and other accounts from actresses who worked with him.)

And his advocates are still spewing out shit about his First Amendment rights - easily done in relation to any obscenity prosecution, and always lapped up by half-witted 'liberals' everywhere.

And there was the problem of the fact that the prosecution had to made under parochial Florida law.

It's kind of agreed that the prosecution for obscenity was a round about way of prosecuting for the abuses against his actresses. But actually, since that wasn't the basis of the prosecution, it's less likely to work as a deterrant to others working in his 'style'.

Health and safety regulation does nothing to address the problem of how 'contracts' are reached. And it seems to be this murky area that allows for abuses that take place.

I agree with you about publication of degrading material - in principle, and also instinctively. But whilst the First Amendment still stands, this stuff will still be published freely in the US.
So it seems to me that a more sensible approach would be to try and curtail the way it's made. Or at least - and most urgently - try and stop the damage done to people during the process.

I also agree that there are other effects of porn - on viewers, etc. But I think that the abuses against people used in the making are more urgent, and more immediately addressable.

I agree that it's part of a much bigger landscape. And I'd like to try and find or even discuss practical ways of addressing that, which maybe, just maybe, could have a tangible effect for the better.

I couldn't give a shit whether or not it's fashionable to object to porn, but since I feel strongly enough about it to do so, I'd rather try and do so constructively.

*Real men" use porn ?

ok

that's an interesting viewpoint, lorna

I thought you weren't sticking around on MN since you got "bullied" for posting a video of a teenage boy being sexually assaulted by an adult woman

agenda ? much ?

"lorna" ???

I don't fucking think so

real men don't need porn. sad wankers use porn

OK here's a question. I only ask it because it came up on another forum I frequent, leading to a very interesting discussion and I couldn't quite work out how I felt about it.

What about cartoon porn?

If the objection to porn is what's being focused on here - the inevitable abuse of performers (whether by specific acts or just by the general psychological damage of working in the industry) - then porn which is produced purely by animation should be completely exempt from that objection, right?

I understand there's a separate objection from some quarters about what some consider or assume to be the widespread effects of watching porn on mens' attitudes and relationships. I also understand there are several problems with this objection (possibly moreso in relation to cartoon porn than other kinds).

But if we leave that aside for the moment and focus on the question of coercion, bad employment practices, and physical and psychological damage to porn actresses - then in this sense wouldn't we have to admit that there's nothing wrong with cartoon porn?

It's late and I don't have time to read the whole thread but the first page that I read reminded me of this article about two women googling for Feminist Porn, and what they found, and their musings thereupon.

Right, I just used 'thereupon' in a sentence. Definitely time to sleep!

blackcurrants wow what a link .

I agree with Lubbermummy.
Sad wankers use porn.

Wow BlackCurrants. I....wow.

Brilliant article Blackcurrants.

The conclusion says it pretty clearly;

"Let?s get some perspective here, huh? When someone spends 99% of their time defending .0000001% of an industry while avoiding confronting the 99.9999999% of the industry that has real effects on women?s lives, that person looks a bit delusional/defensive/dishonest. Let it go, dude. Admit that you know porn is bad for women and you use it, participate in it, or profit from it anyway. You aren?t fooling anyone here, and I doubt that you?re even fooling yourself."

UnexpectedOrange - I agree that cartoon porn is very dodgy and often had paedophilia themes. However I think it is in a rather different league to porn of filmed people because no real people got hurt, abused, damaged and exploited for wanking benefit in the cartoons.

If any porn apologists read that article and don't conclude "discussion over" then I will be vindicated in my assertion that there is something wrong with their intelligence

Nothing wrong with my intelligence. I just refuse to accept that the only answer to the problems associated with the making of some porn is to ban all porn. And I also maintain and always willl that a repressive climate is far more harmful to women than a liberal one.

I did a search on this thread on 'ban' yesterday. The only people who mention banning are people saying 'you can't ban' so it's very much straw man.

I agree brandy. I'd like a world where masturbating to images of real violence against women is seen as unacceptable. I'm not interested in some simple 'ban'.

And the current porn industry is not liberal. It is very much repressive. It represses types of sexuality that are not shown in porn. Hence all the 'you don't like porn ergo you don't like sex crap'. Conflating sex and porn is highly repressive.

I'm not interested in banning porn, either. I don't think a ban would work. Nor am I interested in sinking money into talk about 'regulating' porn. I will settle for making people be honest about porn.

I am interested in being able to say, out loud, "hey, there's a statistically meaningful and significant chance that the scene you are masturbating to involved the assault and/or rape of a woman. Can you know that and still get off?" without being told that I am a prude, or anti-sex, or that I just don't understand that 'men need porn.' They don't. No man ever exploded from the testicles due to lack of porn. Masturbation doesn't require porn, much as the porn industry wants to persuade us it does.

So I want to be able to ask the question, I want the question to be out there.

For me the analogy is something like Nestle: I've read The Politics of Breastfeeding, I grew up boycotting Nestle and stuff like that. Now I'm older and I'm not going to say I haven't eaten the occasional kitkat, but I do find it hurts my sense of ethics a bit to be giving money to that organization, and so I try not to. That's how I feel about porn: it's unethical. If you can make your peace with the fact that it's unethical and still use it, well that tells me something about you. I'm by no means a lentilweavery saint, gods know, but you pick your battles and I will fight to be able to say: "hey, lots of porn actresses are raped, assaulted, and generally treated like shit. Why does that make you horny and do you think that might affect your relationships with women in real life?" without being told for the gazillionth time that I am anti-sex or just don't get men.

For me, knowing I'm participating in someone else's suffering when I can choose not to - is a turnoff.

Who, anywhere, on any of these threads has promoted a blanket ban on porn ? I haven't seen it.

I challenge people's perceptions of it. I would prefer they didn't utilise denial and self-delusion about what they are getting off to. I want them to ask themselves if their orgasm is worth it.

If they still think it is, then that tells me all I need to know.

I never said it either, first I've heard the word 'ban' come up in this discussion. Banning it would have the opposite effect and make it even more desirable.

I second what AnyFucker says.

I have mixed feelings. I will admit that I've used it myself in the past. I think it's a myth that all women don't like it.

However, I also accept that some porn is unethical.

tbh, i think cartoon porn, (and especially Hentai) is probably worse than real porn in the subjection of women... largely because a lot of it is anime and there is too much blurring of the line between adults and children in the way they draw the girls... their age is too ambiguous.

Some of it is certainly like that, yes. But I was referring more to the concept as a starting point than to specific types, even if they're widespread.

The role of porn in the "subjection of women" through the sheer consumption of it is a much more contentious and complex area to discuss, IMO, than that of harm done to people in the industry. Various claims could be made about the effects on people of watching porn acted out with unbalanced power relationships, and most of the negative ones rely on sheer emotive assertion or individual anecdote rather than any kind of compelling evidence, so far.

When it comes to "ethical porn", then blanket condemnation becomes even more difficult. The idea that it's inherently corrupting to watch two people have mutually consenting, mutually satisfying sex and get off on it would be a very hard one to prove - I don't even know how many of the hardline anti-porners here would go that far.

But my question was about the harm engendered by the production of porn. It's much easier to show that people being drugged and raped to make porn are directly harmed by it, than it is to show which kinds of porn have which kinds of effect on which consumers (and that's what most of the discussion here, at least in the last few pages, has focused on). Since it's impossible to drug, rape or harm in any way a cartoon, we would have to accept that that problem is completely absent in the case of cartoon porn, wouldn't we?

As for your other issues, they would depend on the type of cartoon and how it is depicted - and on whether it's true that watching porn must by definition lead to the subjection of women.

PR some of the most vocal haters of porn haven't said they have never used it

You can't hate something you have never seen

don't buy into the assumption that anti-porn folks are Mary Whitehouse types

think about it...

True enough

AS i have grown older my opinion has changed.
I always used to think that it was fine. a bit of fun to help spice things up. So long as it was all consenting adults then fine by me.

I told myself that if the woman could earn hundreds of pounds simply for having sex with a good looking guy then good for her.

My opinion is now almost the total opposite. The women in the industry will often convince themselves that they are empowered. they are true feminists who are in total control.

The entire industry is corrupt and degrading, particularly for the women.

You will see shots of the womans face whilst she is used as little more than a recepticle. she is encouraged to stare into the camera and pull faces like she is on her wedding night. In truth you see blank eyes and often she is in pain.
they are forced encouraged to do more and moredemeaning things. Whilst they start off with the basics they are then pushed into girl on girl, anal, multi partner and then who knows what.

Yes the women do earn a comparitivly good wage per hour of shooting. But it is nothing compared to what the distributers make. There are also the huge health implications.

The sex industry will always be there. But for every 1 girl that goes into the industry willingly there are a hundred who feel they have no choice.

It will always exist but i think it should be far more heavily controlled.

As for whether my partner used porn. Again i have changed my mind. Whilst once i wouldn't have minded, even watched with him. Now i would have a conversation with him about why he found it arousing. what it was about what he was watching that he enjoyed. I would point out what i saw when i watched the same thing.
I would be quite upset if he continued to use it once we had had the conversation.