Sexless marriage heading for catastrophe?

[aegeansky]

We're in couple therapy as our 10+ year marriage is in deep trouble. It started gradually enough - just fewer and fewer things to talk about outside the daily grind, until childcare and our routine was pretty much the only thing left to talk/ argue about. We used to go out about once a year but that has grown longer after a disastrous experience that nearly ended our relationship on the spot. We haven't been physically intimate for at least 5 years, and that was only a brief interlude following an earlier period of about 3 years where practically nothing happened. When I look ahead I see some kind of unstated agreement that we'll weather this out forever. There's not enough time in couple therapy to get to the heart of the matter, and I'm now, for the first time, confused about what I want. I've never been unfaithful, but a few times just recently I've felt a strong attraction to someone and have had to deliberately keep myself away from trouble by talking about my wife, children, cats and dogs, as if we were still the model of a happy family. It makes me very sad inside as it's so far from the truth. I've seen what happens when a deceipt and betrayal happens and it's heartbreaking. I don't want to ever do that but for the first time, I feel myself susceptible to temptation and it's a horrific dilemma for me. I don't have anything tangible to fess up, so that's not really a good option. Anybody familiar with such a situation and how to make it end well?

SolidGold, it's actually the other way round. II'm the up-front communicator, believe it or not. I've lost count of the times I've tried to initiate and in-depth discussison or ask for a time when that can happen. She has many strategies (conscious or not) for making sure things stay short and in my view, far more superficial than I'd like.

One ongoing issue for me that is a symptom of our differences is that she wants to talk about our respective days in front of the children, and if I don't want to, that's practically my only opportunity to talk to her gone. For me, that means a whole layer of conversation that we can't have. I can't remember the last time she said she wanted to discuss something with me in private.

Do you not share a bed?

Why don't you want to talk about your day in front of the children? Does one of you work in a profession that involves stuff that isn't suitable for them to hear about eg dealing with dead bodies/the sex industry?

Aegean- I put a lot of time and effort into compiling that last post- inbetween making dinner!- and you have ignored all the points I made, including the list of questions I suggested you might put to your wife- even 1 or 2 would move things along.

I know you are under no obligation to respond to anyone's post but in the light of lack of communication with your W, I wonder if there is any connection in the way you ignore certain challenging posts here and your wife's challenging behaviour?

And Mal makes a good point- if your children are young and in bed by say 9pm or sooner, why don't you talk to your wife then, or in bed?

You keep telling us that you are a good communicator, but when youhave the hcance- after kids are in bed, or at counselling ( and even on this forum to an extent) you seem to avoid issues that are painful.

SGB- I think he meant he wants to talk about other things, not work- because for some reason that time is the only time they have to talk. it's the time factor- not the subject matter that seems to be the issue.

OP has already said he's made plenty of effort to bring things up and the missus shuts it down. Nobody wants their effort to bring stuff up to end in a serious shouty argument every single time; I can imagine a situation where you'd almost want to give up trying.

There's no point in people being pushy with the op, after all, we're not his counsellors.

OP just say straight out to your wife: 'Look things aren't working because you won't talk. I want a trial separation until such time as you're prepared to sit down and talk everything through'.

LOL Hell just think about what you've posted: other posters shouldn't be pushy, don't provoke a shouty match- just ask for a trial separation"

IMO a separation is a lot more serious than a shouting match.

The OP has not said he wants to move out- he has said he needs to talk and not be deflected when he tried to.

Aegean sorry if I sounded a bit ranty, BUT myself and others have given you bags of advice over what must almost be a week now (I wonder if you have had a counselling session meanwhile?) and it looks as if you are not able to move things forward in the way everyone is suggesting.

It's pretty clear that your wife will do anything too avoid the conversation you need- whether with you or with a 3rd party- so it's down to you to push when the barriers come up- and you'll have to toughen up a bit to get through it, instead of backing off each time she tries to wriggle out of talking.

Nothing more to add really.

Thats why my first instinct was to advise - suggest a trial separation.

To shift this stagnation.

The nitty gritty of it is, if my OH would not talk to me about our relationship and was prepared to haughtily ignore me packing my bags and not challenge my serious and sensible preparations to live elsewhere then i'd have my answer to the state of his feelings for me.

If she really will not communicate with you then this would force the issue.

The choice then would be whether or not to go through with leaving if you were to remain unchallenged i suppose. I'm afraid i'd go.

Ameliagrey, you are jumping to a huge conclusion about your last post, which I think contains excellent advice, only I've only just seen it! :) There's nothing sinister about that - it must have been a cross-posting thing.

Tbh I don't think you can infer anything whatever about my communication ability from my posts on this forum. This is excruciatingly difficult for me to talk about as I'm an intensely private person. So please cut me some slack. If I don't offer some information, it's because there are good reasons not to.

SolidGold - I don't want to talk about my day in front of the children because it trivialises the conversation. They want to be involved, too, so I end up explaining what I'm talking about and the depth of the conversation is delimited.

OTOH, my wife expects me to tgive her 100% attention as soon as she walks in and ask her about her day. I'd rather have a perfunctory hello and high-level summary and then talk properly later. The content doesn't have to be sinister for this to be a good idea. I wouldn't, for example, want to talk about a daily frustration in front of DCs as this models a certain kind of response to life that perhaps they'll master in a different way. Also, I'm entitled to swear about life's frustrations but I can't do this in front of DCs.

There's this issue, (mine) about her using exactly the same language and level of disclosure when she's talking to me or a relative or a friend. How can that sustain any intimacy?

Okay- apologies Aegean- I did wonder if it was crossed posts and sorry for jumping the gun

However- I do think we can tell a lot about your communication skills in so much as you are obviously articulate ( don't want that to sound patronising.) and I suspect your work is in the creative field.

Not sure how old your children are- though you mentioned one was 6- but TBH when my DCs were young, DH and I would focus on their day over tea, dinner, homework, etc, and then have the "grown up" conversations when they were in bed. I don't really go for this idea that young children should be party to all the conversations parents have, if it's nothing to do with them. I think couples should keep some kind of private life.

On the other hand it sounds as if your wife wants to offload the minute she comes in which is rather demanding given that you have been at home all day working as well, and you have 2 (?) children around.

But anyway- what you need to do is to start saying how you feel and not paying too much attention to how she tries to wriggle and deflect the conversation.

There are some good tips online about using assertive ( not aggressive) behaviour and language to enable you to say how you feel without antagonising the other person.

I'm afraid I don't really think the letter is a great idea because she is likely to either say she has not had time to read it, or she reads and makes no comment. it's talking you both need to do.

Amelia, about your last post. I have, as a result of a week's intense focus on this issue, considered a trial separation. Only I know that the huge cost, financially, practically and emotionally, would lead us down a a one-way street to permanent separation. DCs would have to be told and the idea of doing that, or the impact it would have on them, is totally killing me. And I don't trust DW to explain it in a way that doesn't blame me. I fear she will say she did everything right and I walked out on her, and she would use our mutual friends to support that narrative. So yep, an element of fear there is holding me back from using that card tactically.

BUT, just to say, I'm writing that letter. We haven't had a counselling session yet - we have one next week. I will give her the letter during the counselling session or to the counsellor. And, you'll be interested to know, the questions you outline are a very useful guide, so thanks.

I'm not expecting people to keep coming back with fresh advice - so much is here alreaady. So yes, I may go quiet for a bit.

whoops- crossed posts again!

In your position I'd be wary of moving out as it could have a bad fall out- even limiting access to your children.
You would also be closing down not opening up channels of communication.

In some ways your wife may have "won" if you were to move out- she would still have the family home , you'd not be pressing her for an explanation, and sorry- but it doesn't sound from what you say that she would miss you very much.

Malificence, yes, we share a bed. But before we go to bed, she likes to potter about, listen to the radio blah blah. She uses pre-bedtime as a time for personal space. And when she does come to bed, she puts her headphones on - that's an obviously hand-off sign.

I've long since given up using this time - when we on the face of it we are physically in close proximity, I mean lying next to eachother - to create emotional closeness. I go into this zone when I fantasise about living alone and feeling infinitely strong on my own.

But yes, as others have said, there's little more to say on this thread now. Trouble is, I'm finding I don't need her to meet my emotional needs anymore - that's after years of disappointment and grooming myself out of the habit. We haven't had sex for so long that I frankly no longer care about that, either. Indeed, I'd be perplexed and very distrustful if she did suddenly behave sexually. How long would it last? What had brought the change about?

These aren't small things exactly. It's time for me to communicate, that much is certain. If, at the end of the day we can't be man and wife, then perhaps we can become friends? (And I don't mean that in the sense of teenagers splitting up. I mean that for better or for worse, we are going to have to communicate for many many years to come in order to organise and support DCs' lives)

That's the crunch for me.

Amelia, no, one DC is not 6 - that was referring to another poster's child who said that their 6 yr old was caught in the middle of their separation.

Yep, we do have 2 DCs and I don't want to state their ages precisely for privacy reasons - I know several mumsnetters in RL - but they are appreciably older than 6.

Sorry Amelia, I didn't address your other points. Thank you for conceding that my preference - talk about DCs day first and then have grown-up chat later, is reasonable.

I think the killer for me is to focus on how I feel. I can't easily identify my feelings or give myself permission to express them. This is a very different problem to the supposedly classic male behaviour of having feelings but withholding them. So I need to do that - isolate my feelings and write them down for my own benefit, even if I don't use the letter technique.

I have read at least 3 self-help books about communicating with another person! I hate to say it, but DW ticks several boxes for being a difficult person. But hey, I can still look online a you suggest and see if I'm missing anything.

OP, I read your thread and I dont think it is anyones place on here to tell you what you should do. Only you can make those decisions.

But I do think that sometimes relationships dont so much break down as just drift out the door whilst no one is looking. These are the hardest relatonships to end as they are not particularly good, not particularly bad and there is no catalyst for change.

Emotionally, it sounds like you have already seperated. What might help is to sit down and discuss what that means and how you might create a new relationship moving forwards either together or apart.

For what its worth seperation doesnt always spell disaster. It is how you behave towards each other that dictates the tone.

My new partner stayed with his ex for 10 yrs in a situation not unlike yours as he was primary carer for his children. They were older teenagers when they finally split. Both him and his ex now have new partners, his children move happily between their parents houses. They also get on well with my teenage children and everyone is much, much happier.

My children also go back and forward between me and my ex. We regularly sit down and discuss and agree what we are doing as parents. We have keys to each others homes so we can pop in and pick stuff up for them if need be, but we also respect each others privacy. 3 years on from our divorce we are almost friends again.

Aegeansky.
I do not think it would be helpful, indeed it could be quite damaging, to show your wife the letter just before or during the session. At the very least the session is likely to be derailed by springing this on her.

It would be more respectful to give her a copy at least 24 hours ahead of time and tell her that you would like to also provide your therapist with a copy at the beginning of the session.

LOL Hell just think about what you've posted: other posters shouldn't be pushy, don't provoke a shouty match- just ask for a trial separation

I always think about what I've posted. There are no contradictions in my post actually. Asking reasonably for a trial separation in order to move things forward one way or another is better than any attempt at trying to talk about the issue ending up in a shouting match because his wife refuses to engage.

OP best of luck. It isn't easy to move things forward that have been unresolved for such a long time. You'll find a way, just keep focussing on a positive outcome and hopefully in a couple of months time, you'll be posting good news...

I am wondering if the ultimate solution to your problem is not that you and your wife agree that your marriage will no longer be monogamous. So both of you get your emotional/sexual needs met outside it but work comfortably together to raise your DC. This can in fact work just fine as long as the rules and boundaries are agreed between you and you can commit to treating each other with courtesy and fairness. And it's a better option than trying to pressure your reluctant wife into resuming intimacy (both physical and mental) that she is demonstrating very clearly that she doesn't want.