Sexless marriage heading for catastrophe?

[aegeansky]

We're in couple therapy as our 10+ year marriage is in deep trouble. It started gradually enough - just fewer and fewer things to talk about outside the daily grind, until childcare and our routine was pretty much the only thing left to talk/ argue about. We used to go out about once a year but that has grown longer after a disastrous experience that nearly ended our relationship on the spot. We haven't been physically intimate for at least 5 years, and that was only a brief interlude following an earlier period of about 3 years where practically nothing happened. When I look ahead I see some kind of unstated agreement that we'll weather this out forever. There's not enough time in couple therapy to get to the heart of the matter, and I'm now, for the first time, confused about what I want. I've never been unfaithful, but a few times just recently I've felt a strong attraction to someone and have had to deliberately keep myself away from trouble by talking about my wife, children, cats and dogs, as if we were still the model of a happy family. It makes me very sad inside as it's so far from the truth. I've seen what happens when a deceipt and betrayal happens and it's heartbreaking. I don't want to ever do that but for the first time, I feel myself susceptible to temptation and it's a horrific dilemma for me. I don't have anything tangible to fess up, so that's not really a good option. Anybody familiar with such a situation and how to make it end well?

I find this all rather sad now.

You cook her meals and she re-cooks them?
You take charge of the kids at the weekend so she has some free time.
You are frightened of talking to her about this because she over-analyses the way you say things (instead of concentrating on the words?)
She shows you no affection whatsoever?

I can't get my head around how someone so passionate could suddenly change - or even gradually as you say, to becoming cold and distant.

Was there anything in the past that could have been a trigger? A death of one of her relatives? A traumatic birth? PND? How was she after she had her children? Were the pregnancies easy? How about the births? Is she a depressive person prone to attacks of low self-esteem?

Another thing that worries me is that you don't seem to know your wife very well at all. It's as though you are both strangers just house-sharing. She has changed beyond all recognition and I'm not sure if there is anything to salvage here.
Why do you think she is attending counselling sessions?

I'm sorry but I'm inclined to go with what others are saying now. It may be time to move on from this marriage. Now I know you will say "but what about the kids" however staying in a loveless marriage is hardly likely to be good for them either is it? If you can keep any split amicable there is no need for them to suffer. But if you stay together like this, where is the teamwork? Who makes decisions about the kids? What about when they hit their teens? Are you both going to be singing from the same songsheet or will your differences stick out like a sore thumb, making life difficult not only for you but your growing teenage children who need you to be a unity. Children learn about relationships from those around them and what they are learning from you two is that there is no warmth, no love and neither does there have to be in a marriage - is that a good lesson?

Thing is, you've said you need to talk to her, but you haven't done so. Which leads me to think that you really are scared of her. It's a no-win situation here and all the advice we can give means not one jot if you are not willing to at least try. We're all second-guessing as to what is going on with your wife.

Personally I would leave the computer on this thread so she can read it.

But I'm really not sure that this marriage is going to work. I think she's unwilling to do anything to change this routine you have which leaves you with two choices, to either go with it until the kids leave home or carve out a better life for yourself and give her the chance to find love too.

I have to disagree that sex is rare in all LTRs!

I have been with my DH for 15 years and we have a fab sex life.

BUT we did go through a phase (lasting approx 4 years) of having very little, during which time DH felt very hurt and rejected. We were both commuting long distances to our full time jobs, ending up too knackered at evenings and weekends to even speak to each other, let alone have sex. Our relationship came close to failing but we changed our jobs for local ones with shorter hours and now have time to enjoy each others company. We found our sex life returned to normal when we both had more time and energy.

I have to disagree that sex is rare in all LTRs!

I don't think anyone said that sex is rare in ALL LTRs ?!?
It's very very common though, which a lot of people don't seem to realise.

OP Do you think your wife might be having this same type of conversation with her friends- and saying that her DH doesn't talk or tell her how he feels?

Something has happened to turn her off you.
Maybe you aren't "man enough"- you seem to be reacting from a weak standpoint, afraid to show your feelings and justified anger- and TBH if she responds to a more Alpha male figure, this could be a real turn off for her.

I do wonder why you have come to a parenting forum dominated by women to try to find the answer to your problem- instead of talking openly to your wife.
None of us has a clue what is going on. We have offered suggestions but in the main they are based on personal experiences, or those of people we know.

It might be painful to start being open with your wife over how you feel, but not as painful as a divorce.

Hell- I agree. The definition of a sexless marriage is one where sex happens fewer than 10 times a year- so for many couples who get round to it less than once a month, that would apply.

It's only an issue though if one person feels unhappy with this, and if it's a symtpom of deeeper unhappiness or problems in the relationship.

some couples are happy with kisses and cuddles not full sex, but the problem is if one person feels there is a lack of emotional and physical intimacy.

If the OP is the same in RL as on this forum - avoiding questions/ clouding issues/ not really saying much at all, perhaps he's annoying/frustrating his wife beyond all reason.

"Something has happened to turn her off you.
Maybe you aren't "man enough"- you seem to be reacting from a weak standpoint, afraid to show your feelings and justified anger- and TBH if she responds to a more Alpha male figure, this could be a real turn off for her."

You know, that's one of the first things that occured to me, Op's communication skills could be better but it doesn't seem like he could make matters worse by just biting the bullet and coming out with what he really feels, how sad/angry/frustrated etc. - she might even respect him for it.

I agree - how much worse could it get?

If you feel you are a poor communicator then write it down or print this thread off or email her a link or leave it on the pc - but do something to get her attention.

She doesn't show affection but she's still able to thank you for your support in giving her some free time, so she does acknowledge you still and feels able to pay you compliments. If someone didn't care about you, they wouldn't thank you.

Quite frankly I'd arrange for someone to have the kids one weekend, get a bottle of wine in and tell her to cancel her plans as they had some sorting out to do and if she didn't join you in sharing a bottle of wine, you'd ring someone else who'd be more than happy to do so.

Be assertive. Take control of this situation because really, what is the worst that could happen? She'd stop speaking to you? She'd leave? Well even that has to be better than this stalemate you've got yourself in.

Malificence - I wish that were true. I'm not passive in this, I don't avoid q.s in counselling, and I'm a fluent communicator verbally. Indeed, I'm the one who has to get the thing moving. Thing is, when DW detects even a slight inflection of anger (even in therapy) she will focus on that. Then I have to backtrack and deal with the reaction before we can move on. It continually seems to be about the way I say things, not the words, and I'm not exactly irate, just frustrated-sounding, sometimes. I'm the same: if I see her eyes narrow, I'll focus on that- I can't help it. It's obviously a recipe for continual sabotage of the underlying conversation.

Defence mechanism for sure.
Which is why letters work so much better. Because you HAVE to focus on the words then.
It wasn't always like this was it? You could communicate just fine, but because neither of you want to really confront this issue, it sounds as though you'll do almost anything to get out of it. And I'm sorry but as good a communicator as you are, that avoidance is pretty weak.

So, what are your plans right now? What is the plan of action? Because I'm not sure we can do anything more for you.

AmeliaGrey - why have I come to a forum dominated by women instead of talking to my wife? Hmm, again, a bit harsh (I mean, the instead bit). I have talked to my wife to the limit of my ability, repeatedly, and, as I said before, we're in counselling for the second time. But I get a clear warning from her that she doesn't want to talk outside counselling at all as she finds it too harrowing. Am I just going to ignore that and talk at her? No. If I try, she gives me the silent treatment, and instead of feeling like an alpha male (and I know how that feels and what the archetype means, and I can behave like that at work and among males), I feel like a bully.

Obviously it's an enormous help to me to come to a forum dominated by women. It doesn't have to be one or the other, surely?

Then I have to backtrack and deal with the reaction before we can move on.

No- you don't HAVE to, You choose to.

You are allowing yourself to be bullied/dominated/ emotionally blackmailed by your wife's looks or reactions to what you say.

If you allow yourself to be thrown off course during a frank discussion by these things, then you will get nowhere- which is what is happening in your counselling sessions.

You do appear to be a bit gutless. Sorry to sound so harsh, but the fact is you back off too quickly, and your wife could be very shrewdly manipulating you - she knows which buttons to press- to avoid being confronted.

It's a bit like a child having a tantrum- you deal with the tantrum and get side tracked from the cause of it all!!!!

I am surprised really that your counsellor doesn't pull you back to the issue and suggests you stop rising to every verbal or non verbal protest from your wife.

What comes over in all your posts is that she has the upper hadn, you cower, afraid of her and what may come out in the wash if you speak your mind- and i think that this is at the root of your problems- she is waiting for you to "man up" a bit.

can you?

I posted before I'd read your latest post.

No I am not being harsh- I am trying to get you to look honestly at your behaviour and cut the crap.

Look- there is a saying which is "if you keep doing the same thing, you will get the same results."

Think on that.

To answer your points above- yes, if she tries to shut down the conversation, or not engage in it , i think you really ought to press on with it.

Maybe you both need to get really, really, "throwing things at each other angry" to get rid of all this pent up anger, frustration and repressed emotions?

Because what you have now isn't working.

You are caught up in a game - of her choosing. You try to talk, she withdraws or gives a signal she finds it annoying/painful whatever. You back off.

Same again next week, next month, blah blah.

If you have any self respect you need to challenge her and make her listen even if she won't talk to you.

SirCliffRichard... plans right now? Well, I've had an enormous amount of exposure to various possible strategies as a result of my thread - which is brilliant. Thanks to all contributors, each of whom has added something relevant, and often, something I wouldn't have thought about. I think, just as you suggest, that I'll write a letter, and either give it to the counsellor just before our next couple therapy session, or (less likely), to DW when I know she has the opportunity to focus on it adequately. Plan B is weaker, as she may not respond at all.

Strange as this will sound, before posting, I had become so used to the situation I'm now in and to our current avoiding behaviours that I could scarcely see them for what they were. I had particularly bought into the belief that we could never separate because it would damage the children too much, and if it does come to that, I'll still struggle with this.

Ameliagrey, hmm, more food for thought there - challenging but welcome, actually. But I really don't think I'm scared of her as you suggest. What I am scared of, is that she will call ME a bully if I shout and express anger. And what a repellent term and vision that is...so I go the other way.

If I thought she could take a passionate argument with things flying about, I'd have done that long ago - I'm much more pro-disclosure and she's much about more zipping things up and behaving (superficially) in a controlled way.

Why are you not allowed to show any anger?

I'm a child of divorced parents and yet I'm now in a very happy marriage (not without similar problems but we work through them). Some kids are more damaged by an unhappy marriage than a break-up.

If you've tried and she's made you feel guilty for trying and guilty for feeling angry then what can you do? Sounds like she is the dominant one and whilst you might be able to function at work, around her you become submissive.

I wish I could hear her side of the story, I really do.

Last thing: if my dh did this, I would be furious. The silent treatment, the refusal to listen, no affection and no effort - I'd be hopping mad and he'd damn well know about it!

You don't think that what she is doing is bullying? She is manipulating you into behaving the way SHE wants you to. She is forcing you into an unhappy lifestyle. I think they call this, passive aggressive bullying.

Bloody hell, you're allowed to have feelings you know! Even to express them!

If I thought she could take a passionate argument with things flying about, I'd have done that long ago

Please explain- what you mean by "take a passionate argument".

IF as i assume, you mean she would flounce out of the house, give you the cold treatment etc well.. what does that tell you?

Your wife is not some pathetic little creature who is going to buckle or even leave you at the first sign of your anger!

On the contrary she is controlling you by her behaviour.

One pretty fundamental thing- it takes two to make a relationship work.
You are doing your bit- within the limitations of your rather submissive personality. But what is she doing? Not a lot it appears other than agreeing- under sufference it apppears- to go to counselling but not fully engage in the sessions once they start pushing her outside of her comfort zone.
Does she want to stay married? Forget the sex- icing on the cake- does she really want another 50 years with you? Have you asked her?

OP I have to say I'm in your corner on this one and feel that your wife's behaviour is very very unreasonable.... not the sex part, just the refusal to talk about it as an issue. I have to call your counsellor into question too, if I'm honest. The counsellor is allowing your wife to sabotage those sessions, especially if you are expressing yourself in an anger-free way.... which, from reading your posts, I'd say you are.

Another point I wanted to make is the whole business of people fancying/not fancying their partner. There's an unspoken rule that one just doesnt ever say that straight out, ie 'I don't fancy you any more', mainly because they don't want to make the other person feel bad, or maybe as in your case, don't want to upset the status quo (cos let's face it, she has a pretty good status quo, with a built-in childminder at the weekends while she goes out etc). So what people say instead is 'It's not you, it's me' blah blah blah.
If you could get her to just admit that, by saying something like 'Look we're not having sex any more. If you don't fancy me, that's fine, it happens, it's not the end of the world. We can find a solution that suits both of us'. That would maybe open the door to at least honesty on her part?

Also, look to her own upbringing. Happy childhood? Mum and Dad emotionally distant? I had parents who were not compatible, didn't respect and I doubt loved each other and didn't work as a team. As as result, I am the opposite of needy and know that I could live perfectly well without a partner. For that reason, I have to work hard on my marriage, because I know I'm like that.
Maybe your wife is too but is not bothering to work on it?

Sorry so long.

Sorry didn't mean to suggest a good marriage makes kids needy!! Just that one of the effects of a bad marriage on kids is, they withdraw a bit emotionally because they are not getting the emotional connection with their parents that they need, and such people can then be a bit cold as adults.

You know some things can be over analysed at the expense of just getting it sorted as a technique to avoid discomfort.

In plain terms TELL your wife how you view your relationship without concerning yourself with her response.

How she chooses to respond is her responsibility. You are being quite controlling in your own way actually.

You have the fear about what she will say. Maybe you have the fear over what you actually really want which is to call time on your marriage. You don't want to have to deal with the fallout though do you?

A lot of time and effort has been wasted over something that two people could readily resolve.

I get the feeling you aren't being entirely honest and you are aware there is something on your part that has contributed to this current state of affairs.....

I think the suggestion of a temp sep may help clarify things for you. Her response will be very telling.

Hells just to say I agree with you on all of that.
I've had counselling recently and there is no way I think that a decent counsellor would allow one partner to manage the sessions in such a way- she ought to be calling his wife to account for her "shutting down"/ "deflecting" responses.

I get the feeling you aren't being entirely honest and you are aware there is something on your part that has contributed to this current state of affairs.....

Agreed.

You do mention a 'disastrous experience' but you havent given any details. you don't have to, obviously, but was this something that you did? Or was it something that an outsider did, or an accident of some kind? Because it's possible that whatever it was triggered all these problems.

It sounds to me that some people just don't know when to quit.

Oddly quiet......