Sexless marriage heading for catastrophe?

[aegeansky]

We're in couple therapy as our 10+ year marriage is in deep trouble. It started gradually enough - just fewer and fewer things to talk about outside the daily grind, until childcare and our routine was pretty much the only thing left to talk/ argue about. We used to go out about once a year but that has grown longer after a disastrous experience that nearly ended our relationship on the spot. We haven't been physically intimate for at least 5 years, and that was only a brief interlude following an earlier period of about 3 years where practically nothing happened. When I look ahead I see some kind of unstated agreement that we'll weather this out forever. There's not enough time in couple therapy to get to the heart of the matter, and I'm now, for the first time, confused about what I want. I've never been unfaithful, but a few times just recently I've felt a strong attraction to someone and have had to deliberately keep myself away from trouble by talking about my wife, children, cats and dogs, as if we were still the model of a happy family. It makes me very sad inside as it's so far from the truth. I've seen what happens when a deceipt and betrayal happens and it's heartbreaking. I don't want to ever do that but for the first time, I feel myself susceptible to temptation and it's a horrific dilemma for me. I don't have anything tangible to fess up, so that's not really a good option. Anybody familiar with such a situation and how to make it end well?

SirCliffRichard...

Very thoughtful post, for which many thanks. I think you're right on all counts, including not telling her about 'this other girl.' It makes me a bit sad though, because we're not even robust enough to go out to a restaurant. She just has no interest in that and wouldn't agree (tried it before). But seeing beyond the setting, yes, I need to book uninterrupted time with her and both of us need to be grown up and listen. These things are asking a lot of each of us at the moment, because we tend to focus on the way the message is conveyed - lots of over-reaction to body language and intonation - making it very difficult to get a point across without making things worse. But, but, but, it's got to be done, somehow.

Lemonstartree... what do we talk about in counselling? Well, we seem to get sandbagged into focussing on how the other person is coming across. It's the very process of communicating that is so difficult, that even with mediation, it takes forever to ensure that real understanding is taking place without making things even worse. It can be horrific.

Surely you don't need a counselling session to be able to tell her that you have now reached the end of your rope and it's make or break time?
Just tell her you can't carry on like this any more , that's it's not fair on either of you.
Has she actually said what she wants? Have you asked her if she wants you to leave? Have you asked her if she still loves you or why she doesn't want to have sex?

Charbon, that's a brilliant post, too. Thank you. I think there's even some 'safety behaviour' in me now. Looking back, at some point I became really worried about showing behaviour that could be construed as sexual because I didn't want to seem coercive., not one iota.. .so I behave virtually asexually around her. And the reason I don't want to seem coercive at all, even symbolically, is that I don't want sex that is a reluctant giving in to some notion of pleasing me, whether consciously or not (noting of course that we have not had sex for virtually 8 years), and I didn't want to feel rejected. I do try to show attentive behaviour, however, but she has rigid routines that do not always allow this, including, when I tried it in several times in the past, re-cooking her own food after I have tried to cook for her.

I do a lot of childcare, very happily, so she has quite a lot of freedom to do her own thing for around half of the weekend. She's grateful, openly so, and says she's lucky to have my support in this way, but on the face of it, we're just going to head off into the future spending less and less time together - maybe a coping mechanism? I hate the image of us, declining slowly over the years, just putting up with whatever tiny shell of relationship is left. That's not worth keeping, is it?

Malificence - yes, I did ask her a couple of times whether she loved me. She basically said it was an annoying question as it should be obvious and that the fact I had ('repeatedly' - I think twice in a few weeks) asked it showed that I was emotionally needy. This all came out in counselling. This, of course, is a fantastic overturning of the normal gender roles, right on its head.

Is your counsellor setting the agenda or are you? Or your wife?
I have the strong feeling that in the sessions you pussy-foot a bit so as not to hurt your wife's feelings. no?

If you are not speaking your mind then its's a waste of time and money.

can you not agree some agenda beforehand with your wife "Tonight darling, I'd like to discuss this with the counsellor.." or refer back to some incident that has occured as a starting point....

There comes a time I think, sadly, when one person in a relationship can lose respect for the other if that person is bending over backwards to heal the relationship yet the other person is remaining detached.

You appear to be trying so hard yet getting little back.

I wonder what your wife would say if you simply said "Oh fuck this. I've had enough. Unless you met me half way and try to communicate, it's over."

You do indeed seem to be trying so hard OP. I feel you deserve more from life than you are getting.

You're tying yourself in knots and jumping through emotional hoops and it sounds utterly exhausting. Years are ticking by.

I've been trying hard to post something more constructive than this will sound, but i think its time to explore the idea that you may both simply be happier apart. You needn't be enemies. Or strangers to each other. Maybe let the marriage go, live apart and work at being just friends. Thus you will both have the freedom to enjoy a loving sexual relationship with someone else if you desire.

I'm sorry if i'm over-simplifying. I am divorced after a 17 year relationship and have found love and happiness again. I know its not easy.

I think there has been far too much whiffling about the issues and such concern for how the other person perceives your actions you aren't being your natural,true self.

It is entirely natural/reasonable to have needs and desires in a relationship.
It is in no way wrong making these needs known and clearly.
What stops you from having a frank and open discussion? Are you atoning for something?

If talking has just become a war of attrition write to her.

Your life is just dribbling away at the moment and for what?

Just a thought- is she involved with someone else?

apologies because I've not read every single post.

However, I have a close friend who is in a sexless marriage- her choice.
I wonder if the reasons yours is like that are the same as hers?

She resents her DH- he can be emotionally cold, a bit of a bully and very childish ( tantrum like outbursts of anger.)

Over the years this has driven them apart- they sleep in separate rooms and have no physical contact at all. It's helped by the fact he lives away in another country most of the week.

She though is reasonably happy with this .

She has a pleasant life and feels no need to change anything as long as she can do what she likes when he is not there- which she does. (Not other men- nothing like that.)

So- is your wife harbouring resentment for something you do or have done?
Is she happy with her life - and not willing to change?

It sounds like your wife is content, actually. She doesn't really want an intimate relationship. Some people basically don't. That doesn't make her a bad person, but it is not fair to expect you to live in a comfy, companionate marrage when that isn't what you want.

Maybe let the marriage go, live apart and work at being just friends.

Absolutely. Maybe you should sound out the idea of co-parenting? I agree with posters above that the money you're spending on counselling is totally going to waste if neither of you is expressing open views. You should start by telling the counsellor, in her presence, that you haven't had sex in 8 years, not by your own choice, and that something needs to change and maybe co-parenting is the better option. If you're in a position financially to do it and she's not showing willing to change (let's face it, the onus is 100% on her), this needs to be your next step. Don't let her walk all over you. Time will fly in really fast and one you'll wake up 60 and say 'wtf was all that about?'. We only have one shot at it...

When women withhold sex, it's for a reason.
You have to find out what it is.

From what you say- such as her re-heating/re-cooking food you have made her- it sounds as if there is a power struggle going on in your marriage. She is asserting herself in the only ways she knows how to.

withholding sex is a powerful weapon.

she is angry with you- what about? Is she disappointed with you in some way?
Are you- god forbid- not much good in bed- are you a selfish lover, unwashed, bad breath ?

if your counsellor is not being firm enough with you both, or probing deeply enough, then you eed to find another one.

I do not believe your wife does not know why she rejects you. I do believe she is playing a power game and you need to find out why.

be bolder- ask more questions. what have you to lose?

Lots of women go off sex when the whole business of baby-making is done and dusted. It sounds to me like she doesn't fancy you (no reflection on you) due to over-familiarity and the dullness of the daily routine. Some women are wired to get bored with the whole regular sex imperative once they pop out the babies. Where she's at fault is in forcing that on you when you don't feel the same way.

I don't think it's that you've done anything wrong to her, the opposite in fact. But I guess you know the ins and outs of that better than anyone op.

I don't think she's necessarily witholding sex, if the OP hasn't really made any advances. I know I'm not. It's different for everyone. The one time we did have sex was when I'd helped organise a party and it went really well. I had a great time, was highly praised, and felt fantastic. Came back and did it. For me, it is certainly self esteem. That can also lead to some control issues as (perhaps) she feels like the only thing she can do well is cook, so doesn't like her dh cooking. Just offering a different perspective on it.

I think OP's getting fairly consistent advice though that this needs to come up (the sex issue and the fact he feels like he's at tipping point), and needs to be said preferably whilst there is still mediation there.

I'm so sorry to hear about your situation but it also scares me because my DH & I are a few years behind you & I'm terrified I'll be saying the same thing in 5 years! As a woman who's husband doesn't desire her I don't know what to advise someone of the opposite sex other than all the things I wish my husband would do such as little compliments, telling her you love her, enthusiastic hugs & kisses & passionate initiation of lovemaking. I'm guessing you tried all that years ago & like me have withdrawn totally after many rejections & excuses. I hope you find a solution but if you are attending couples therapy can you spell out how much this is hurting you? What would she say?

One more question for you Agean

Was the sex ever good? was it frequent and /or passionate?

You see if there were never any fireworks in the beginning it's unlikely you can expect frequent sex now.

All LTR go of the boil at bit sex-wise- and really, yours is not that long a marriage.

If your wife never had a rampant libido, or wanted you lots anywhere, anytime, why should she now?

There does seem to be a huge communication issue here- you're "talking" but not really saying what either of you feel.

I keep coming back to the same things..

there is a reason for this behaviour- anger, low libido, boredom with you, simply not liking sex ( some women just don't)

PLUS her unwillingness to tell you what it is.

Just talk to her- with or without a 3rd party there.

I keep thinking that you are simply not being direct enough- and it lets her off the hook.

It was horrible then as she was a fantastically responsive lover when I met her and for years.

They used to be at it like rabbits apparently until the kids came along

QueenCess, hmmm. That would be a neat solution, but honestly, she doesn't have the opportunity. She is dedicated to her work and her portion of parenting, and a strong interest outside of that, but it's all in the open and in the company of many others. And it wouldn't be her style to be furtive, anyway. When we were getting to know eachother I asked her if she had ever been unfaithful to someone else and she admitted to having a one night stand when things were going badly, and I could hear that she thought it was out of character. But now, no, that's not what she would do. I think she draws on a wider circle of work associates for affirmation than I do- she is open, chatty and gregarious at work in a way that I can't be - and I think that's one of her survival mechanisms.

AmeliaGrey, yes, when we met, it was all about chemistry. She was the most passionate and fantastic lover, we had whole weekends doing little else, and I hadn't exactly been celibate until I met her. Our children were conceived in a furnace of passion, too, which was lovely.

Helltheno, you're getting me thinking with those posts. Good stuff there, thanks.

some women are the most passionate lovers when they want to have kids, once it's achieved tha passion subsides. I always think that true level of libido can be measured only post-kids (unless kids came late, i.e. at late-30s-40). I've heard quite a few men shocked at how his passionate GF lost interest in sex - unlucky, to say the least, as you can't predict it.
She sounds very goal-orientated generally, which would tie up with passion pre-children (she's now passionate about career, raising children well) - even that response when you asked whether she loved you, sounded kind of 'what is the point of asking about love?' (whatever that is, almost springs to mind!) - if practically things are working, almost like emotional stuff is waste of time/airy-fairy). That's my impression.

"All LTR go off the boil at bit sex-wise- and really, yours is not that long a marriage".
Actually that's not wholly true, most LTR have periods of little or no sex, while having babies, through long term ilness etc. Not generally for years though and not once the child rearing stage is over - in a healthy marriage sex should come back with avengance once you have more time for each other and your couple relationship. To paraphrase AnyF, if you can stay in a kind of "holding pattern" through the difficult times, everything comes good in the end.

The only holding pattern in OP's marriage is the power his wife is exerting over them, he's dancing to her tune and it sounds a very unbalanced and unhealthy marriage when he can't even get her to understand his POV.

Mal- we al know that you manage to have a great sex life, and that in that you are maybe slightly out of kilter with the average couple, in LTRs. This is not a case of just from my own experience of talking to friends who have been married 20+ years.

There is a huge amount of scientific evidence which shows that for most couples the initial chemistry subsides after 12- 18 months- this is a biological/anthropological fact based on how long it would take to conceive and raise a child.

This is not to say that sex dies completely far from it. But for many couples, especially those with children still at home, it does dwindle to nothing, due to lack of time, energy and thin walls!

I've got a close friend whose marriage has been totally sexless for 10+ years. For her, it's all linked to emotions and she simply doesn't really like her DH any more. He works abroad , comes home at weekends, and she has a nice life most of the time- helped by the fact he earns a tel. no. salary.
She's talked about their lack of sex to other close friends all in their late 40s, 50s and 60s, and many are having very little sex.

In her case, her DH simply accepts it as he doesn't want a divorce.

Not saying she is right- my own view is they should split.

OP thanks for telling us how your marriage was once full of passion BUT you have avoided the points made by me and others that you seem to be rnning shy of actually talking about the real issues when withthe counsellor.

I've had counselling recently and know that usually they say nothing at the start of each session- so the ball is completely in your court to start the session in the way you want.

really, rather than all of us try to 2nd guess what your wife thinks, the only answer is to ask her.

if she won't, or can't tell you- then I think this in itself is a reason to seriously think about splitting, because it shows a lack of respect for your feelings, and a lack of emotional investment in your marriage.

amelia, I agree. I am also slightly worried that we've only heard one side of the story here. This dw could be the power hungry, goal oriented woman, controlling, emotionally cut-off woman which some of us are second guessing. Or she could be an overwhelmed, insecure, fearful woman (on the inside at least). Maybe both. Only the OP really knows her, and we only have his side of things. Oh, how I would love a good chat with the dw! (And I also wonder how my dh would tell 'our story' and portray me!).