Sexless marriage heading for catastrophe?

[aegeansky]

We're in couple therapy as our 10+ year marriage is in deep trouble. It started gradually enough - just fewer and fewer things to talk about outside the daily grind, until childcare and our routine was pretty much the only thing left to talk/ argue about. We used to go out about once a year but that has grown longer after a disastrous experience that nearly ended our relationship on the spot. We haven't been physically intimate for at least 5 years, and that was only a brief interlude following an earlier period of about 3 years where practically nothing happened. When I look ahead I see some kind of unstated agreement that we'll weather this out forever. There's not enough time in couple therapy to get to the heart of the matter, and I'm now, for the first time, confused about what I want. I've never been unfaithful, but a few times just recently I've felt a strong attraction to someone and have had to deliberately keep myself away from trouble by talking about my wife, children, cats and dogs, as if we were still the model of a happy family. It makes me very sad inside as it's so far from the truth. I've seen what happens when a deceipt and betrayal happens and it's heartbreaking. I don't want to ever do that but for the first time, I feel myself susceptible to temptation and it's a horrific dilemma for me. I don't have anything tangible to fess up, so that's not really a good option. Anybody familiar with such a situation and how to make it end well?

Come back OP. People want to help. But it is very hard when only hearing one side. You can be completly open on this forum as nobody knows who you are in RL.

QueenCess and MarinaAzul, thanks for the nudge. It's okay. I've got a lot of very useful advice and several perspectives to think over. MarinaA, I still have a hard time believing I won't be ID'd in RL, so that makes me hold back on a few background facts.

I'll probably report back in a few days to a week. Thanks

Be strong, OP.

And do come back in a while.

Misty0, thanks. Just some additional background for various people on this thread, now that I've had time to reflect. This is not an excuse, but a partial explanation (at least a bit of one.) When I was growing up, it was not possible for me to express any emotional needs in safety. This is something I've only fully understood in the last few years, so long was the shadow.

Basically, I was shouted at and punished severely for any such behaviour/any request for any need to be met/(including an expression of a desire to take up an activity, do something new requiring a basic minimum of support/ approval, blah de blah, as well as any expression of dealing with something difficult - normal things that kids do when they're growing up) as this was taken to be a sign of 'weakness.' The punishment at its mildest was a cruel, ironic laughter, open ridicule, contempt, humiliation (in front of other sibings) and verbal lashings lasting up to days, and the constant threat of sending me away.

This, from the mum. My dad ignored me as much as possible from an early age, as he clearly just didn' t like me. But he had a few spectacularly aggressive and angry interactions with me, right through to leaving home, that made me cower, because of the latent violence. He would bang his fist down repeatedly with impressive force, his face contorted with rage.

I did not have a close model for male behaviour that I wanted to follow. I had distant models that I tried to adapt, indeed, I basically had an anti-model of male behaviour. I consciously remember deciding not to be like my dad, as I'd sussed out that he was tremendously weak and ineffectual with his peer group, as well as a paradoxically needy bully slash wanker as far as his relationship with my mum was concerned.

This made relationships very difficult from the moment I was free to have them. I became very sexually promiscuous from teens, I guess, with episodes of completely opportunistic sex , virtually with strangers, without blinking.

Sometimes, the sex would lead to an intense relationship with an emotional basis - but then I'd abandon nearly everyone I knew to sustain it. I ended up getting completely hooked on pleasing several female sexual partners (not at once).

I must have been the only guy I knew of such a young age (22 ish) reaading books about female sexuality by Sheila Kitzinger.

It sounds as though you could well do with taking some time out of your relationship and sorting through your various issues.

Just for you.

I agree with QC: it's always a good idea to try to fix yourself first before trying to fix a relationship.

OP you come across as a sensitive, reflective man.

Are you saying that because your parents disapproved when you expressed your wants and needs as a child, you think this has crossed over into your marriage, so that you haven't dare articulate your needs or where there has been a gap?

What seems to be missing here though is your wife's account of why your marriage is like it is. What does she say are the reasons from her side? From what you describe, she was once a passionate woman. What has got in the way and what does she say she wants from your marriage now?

If you've previously entered into relationships that have consumed you, to the cost of everyone and everything else, this is again precisely why an affair would be disastrous - at least for your marriage. However, the fact that you've come close to this recently seems like a watershed moment and it doesn't seem very honest trying to rebuild your marriage in counselling without disclosing it.

Like I said a few posts back, I can see that it might be better for you to first have some certainty in your own mind that your wife is the person you truly want, assuming she would be as willing as you to work on your relationship and match your efforts. Once you've got that joint commitment, I think if you're going to be honest with one another and build intimacy, then this needs to come out.

I've been wondering what you wanted from this thread? Permission to pursue this other friendship? Permission to end your marriage? Or advice to help you change things, in order to have the marriage you want? I'd be interested in what you said you wanted to gain from the counselling and whether what you said out loud there in front of your wife, is different from what you were hoping to achieve from this thread.

Charbon, thanks. I can't help you with my wife's accountof what's brought us here, and I'm not going to attempt to guess what she might say. Tbh, I don't know - that's one of the reasons why I'm in couple counselling with her - to be in a safe environment to hear her.

On your 4th para about 'disclosing' that I came close to having an affair. Hmmm, actually, I think it would be amplifying out of proportion something that's not particularly relevant to how we got here and would lead to all sorts of extra tensions that need not exist. How is meeting someone in an unscheduled way, in front of other people, close to having an affair? I made no attempt to contact her or gain the means of contacting her - highly tempting as that was. I suppose I noted 'available' signals from her, and that felt good, but that's a million miles from an infidelity.

And more to the point, I quite regularly bump into women in the course of my working day and am mindful of their attractiveness, in all its possible variants, without wanting to do anything about it. This doesn't mean I'm shallow or about to embark on an affair with any of them. What a shocking headline, though: 'Sex-starved husband discovers libido..'

What I wanted from this thread? Who knows? Certainly not permission to do anything - wow, that would be weak indeed. I suppose in retrospect having some kind of benchmark - by listening to others' experiences - has been really useful as my experience seems less uncommon than I thought. Also there have been some great tips on possible strategies to work on saving my marriage here.

Crucially, several posters have made it clear that it's okay/ a good idea/ imperative to tell my wife about my feelings without feeling responsible for her reaction at the very same time. I hadn't thought of this before.

QueenCess, good point. I have been dealing with similar stuff in my own personal therapy for a couple of years.

In an ideal world we would all be well balanced 'sorted out' people before entering relationships. As it is though most of us go through life with some level of 'baggage', and try to wrestle our way through as best we can. You sound very self aware, and sensitive to others, OP. Have faith in the validity of your own thoughts and feelings. They count just as much as your wife's. I'm glad to hear you've found this thread has given you the idea that you dont have to be responsible for her feelings/reactions when you are being honest about yours.

Slightly off topic: How do you know when you have sorted yourself out through councelling? How long is enough? Honest questions here (from someone who could probably do with a bit of councelling, but is too scared to go!). I know a couple of people who have had councelling for different reasons, two had a few sessions and found it beneficial but one has been going for years and seems to have just almost drowned in it. Painstaking self analysis is her way of life now and the original reason for going is long lost.

OP it does sound as if your past experiences with your parents are affecting the way you are handling this situation with your wife. Recognising this fact is, in itself, a highly positive thing i would think.

I agree with other posters who say they feel your mariage counceller seems not to be very adept at keeping your sessions on track. Would it be an uphill struggle to get your wife to change to a new one with you?

To me your feelings/thoughts about this other woman is not an affair, of course. But i think when Charbon is saying you were "coming close to an affair", she means mentaly. Closer than in the past. Infidelity starts in the mind, after all. It is a sign that your needs and feelings are surfacing at last.

I still stand by my first thoughts and think you would be well advised to gently suggest living apart from your wife for a while. A trial separation. If nothing else it has to produce a reaction of some description. She cant give you the silent treatment if you bought that idea up during councelling surely?

Is your childhood a little bit of an excuse? It's hard to say...

if you said that you are not able to handle confrontation with your wife for fear of ridicule or whatever, that is understandable, but it doesn't stack up for me because you are a mature and seemingly educated, professional man, good with words- on the screen anyway- highly articulate.

You must have been able to handle relationships before, as you make it clear that you had many girlfriends before you married.

I think- maybe I'm wrong- that your reluctance to grasp the nettle with your W and speak your mind, or question hers, is because you are terrified it will make her leave, or love you less.

Also, as a woman, I find it hard to understand how, if my DH asked me repeatedly, yet kindly, why I was distant or didn't want a sexual relationship with him for 5 years, I'd not find an answer.

Is she afraid of hurting you by being honest? Is she afraid of upsetting the family home and a divorce? Is she willing to put up with the life she has and hope you will stop asking?

I keep coming back to this- but why FGS if you are having counselling, has your counsellor not asked her outright why she does not feel sexual towards you? This is what is unbelievable.

Have you told her about your non sexual relationship?

Is she/he a BACP accred. counsellor? I do hope so.

You see, most wome, I think, know why they don't want sex in their marriage. I don't believe for 1 minute that your wife doesn't know.

Maybe she is afraid of the fall-out if she admits her feelings for you have changed.

what do you think?

Ameila makes some very sound points for your consideration.

I think you are avoidant and frankly even with the issues you outlined, this is not insurmountable.

You just talk. Honestly.

I think you fear the response and are looking to yourself instead of facing it head on. It can continue for ever though can it?

The couples therapy seems to be doing zilch.

You could always show her this thread. She can try being avoidant herself then with great difficulty!

Aegean Please can you confirm there is no back history to this that you are withholding

You see, to my mind the only other reason your wife is behaving as she is, is that she feels you deserve it- and that might mean you have had flirtations, daliances or whatever before and not told us about that.

PLEASE don't take this the wrong way, but you did allude to something "disasterous" a while back and SGB asked you what- but you didn't respond.

Also- another point is- does your wife never worry she may lose you due to her coldness? Many women who withhold sex or any intimacy - without good reason as far as we can tell from what you have said- would have the passing thought that their partners may seek comfort elsewhere.

Is she so secure in the relationship- or so uncaring- that this thought never enters her head?

Aegean- how are things at home and have you managed to take any steps forward?

Ameliagrey - no, I have never been unfaithful to her, not even 'flirtations' as you call them, and not even a thought of being with someone else - 100% loyal. I have had thinly-veiled propositions made to me literally a couple of times, but nothing I ever responded.

The 'distastrous' tag was simply a date that had been designed to clear space for us to talk - no children around, plenty of time, beautiful day. But despite all this, we managed to have such a huge row that the relationship nearly ended on the spot.

Please can you tell me where your perspective is coming from? Are you married with DCs? Obviously this will mediate your take on what I've said and you are asking some very searching questions...

AMELIA is asking searching questions because what you are offering doesn't add up.

Why exactly is your wife so angry? It is clear she is furious about something.

Hi Aegean- about me.... yes married for 25+ years, 2 DCs now adults, marriage did go through a make or break stage a while back , and I had counselling to sort myself out a bit, but back on track now.

That do?

I am asking searching questions because I feel there is more to this than meets the eye: which is not to say you are being economical with the truth, but that you appear to have no instinctive feelings about why your wife has shut you out for 5 years.

I cannot see how it is possible to exist in the same house as another person and yet not know what has gone wrong.

I do know, through my many friends, marriages like yours where the sex is infrequent or even non-existent. I have male and female friends who tell me this. But in every case there is a reason- be it one partner's moods, anger, emotional meanness, or even an affair ( carried out in anger and desperation after so much rejection)- which means the marriages totter along, sexless, with neither one of them willing to make the break, due to habit or fear of being alone.

So- I can't help but dig to try to find out what the reason is in your marriage!

Thanks for clarifying so much OP. But others are right, there are indications that your wife is angry with you and has been for a long time. No one behaves the way she is behaving without a reason. If you don't know what the reason is, you need to ask her.

I'm hesitant to post in relationships, as I'm sure I know very little.

However, it seems to me that she is becoming angry to avoid talking about the issues, rather than that she is intrinsically angry with you. She knows that you don't like to upset her, so she gets cross to dictate the conversation.

If she were just angry with you, surely she would have told you why? Perhaps she doesn't want to tell you, as the current situation suits her, and if you knew the truth, you would leave her. As everyone says, you just need to ask her, and not be deflected by her.

Yes but it could also just be that she's decided she doesn't want any more sex but likes the life she has and gets angry when anything is broached that might upset that. This scenario is possible too, ie it may not be anything specific the op has done, more that her lifestyle is under threat. Sounds to me as though sex is not important to her, otherwise she would've been more proactive about leaving/getting it elsewhere etc.

Ameliagrey, thank you for giving me your backround -yep, that's very reassuring. Glad you managed to stay together... :)

aegeansky - I think people are being a bit hard on you. I don't know if I've missed something but if you were a woman describing your husband I think you would have very different answers.

From my perspective it appears that you are being punished by your wife. For something? Perhaps. Or maybe she is just abusive. Is this a possibility? Perhaps rather than just acting around her the way you did with your parents you actually chose someone who acted the same way they did which leads to you tip toeing around her feelings.

I think if you are going to couples counselling you've got to tell her exactly how you feel - what's the worst that can happen? If your relationship isn't repairable it's better to find out now rather than dragging it out for years.

SolidGold, Cretaceous, Helltheno and others who've suggested it- the anger theory makes sense on paper, but it's a very long time to hold a grudge. I suspect it's a whole lot more intrictate.

Tbh, I do recall periods over recent years when I have tried very very hard to be interested in her work, but could not longer do it. That makes me sound horrible, but what I'm saying is that I just couldn't understand what she actually did anymore, and I had to pinch myself hard to stay concentrating when she was talking about it.

Meanwhile, I was taking on increasing childcare responsbilities at home on top of my work - simply because I was freelance and not regularly tied to commuting hours - which I began to feel she was taking for granted. When, after several years, I tried to get her to see just how much I was doing and how it had started to delimit my work choices, she was furious and said she didn't give a flying fuck about her work and would swap roles instantly.

This came as a massive shock and surprise as I had helped her to nurture an ambition to become senior in her field, as she had always told me that she wanted this. How could I get this so wrong? But more to the point, what else could we have done? We both needed to work to sustain our massive mortgage and overheads, and flipping round the other way was not an option. There was/ little opportunity for freelance work in her sector, and she told me that as a personality, she would not be able to deal with the intense isolation that I sometimes experienced.

I started to feel defensive, feeling that maybe I should go back to a super-traditional model and launch myself back into a corporate job, but she/we had no strategy that would make this possible.The hours in my sector are notoriously long. She didn't want a live-in nanny, she did concede that I was doing a great job with the children, and by now, I had become reluctant to relinquish control of an area that I had dealt with for many years.

She also seemed to enjoy the status and was justifiably proud of her achievement. But these dynamics were unsustainable. I was starting to feel as if I was losing out on real work opportunities- well, I was. At a practical level, getting so bogged-down with the school run and activities that I couldn't complete my work except by staying up until midnight or beyond.

One boxing day, I got up at 4.30 to start a piece of work and pretty much worked solidly until 12 hours later. You can imagine what sort of Christmas that was.

I'm clutching at straws here now. I need to write her that letter, and I need to do it before our next therapy session. Only she will be able to shed light on why things are as they are, but first, I need to ask the right questions - and some that are very direct.

I am starting to get the feeling that you are somehow not really seeing or hearing your wife and this is why she is so angry. Do you make a lot of assumptions about what she wants without actually asking her? You do seem to dislike direct communication, and this is in fact infuriating to live with.

well you do seem to be making progress in your thinking, at least.

Is it possible do you think that your wife has simply "outgrown" you in some ways ? You do have a role reversal here with you working from home ( as I do too- freelance) and I wonder if in some ways she doesn't appreciate you or how hard your job is?

I wonder also if it's just possible that she has an issue with you being at home and resents what she thinks of as "an easier life"- some of what you say suggests that.

I know it's been said already here, but sex is usually a good barometer of the underlying relationship- bar illness, geographical distance and so on- so it does look as if she has "gone off you" pretty much!

and I think that some people here have got impatient with you because it should, in theory, be simple to ask/ find out why someone doesn't want you physically.

Are you considering the possibility that your wife likes the life she has- apart from you? That if this all comes out in the open, she will not have anyone to do the child care, her job may be injeopardy, and so on?

Is she trading on /taking advantage of your infinite patience- because you come over as a bit of a saint given the cold treatment she is dishing out to you.

Surely there are some simple questions you need to ask her:

does she like the life she has with you?
is there anything she would change?
does she love you?
does she see you together 30 years from now?
does she have any sex drive?
does she feel it reasonable in amarriage to withhold sex and not say why?
does she realise this is hurtful and confusing?
has she any real regard for you or your feeling and angst?

all pretty simple stuff- why not ask her? Are you too afraid of the outcome?