Sexless marriage heading for catastrophe?

[aegeansky]

We're in couple therapy as our 10+ year marriage is in deep trouble. It started gradually enough - just fewer and fewer things to talk about outside the daily grind, until childcare and our routine was pretty much the only thing left to talk/ argue about. We used to go out about once a year but that has grown longer after a disastrous experience that nearly ended our relationship on the spot. We haven't been physically intimate for at least 5 years, and that was only a brief interlude following an earlier period of about 3 years where practically nothing happened. When I look ahead I see some kind of unstated agreement that we'll weather this out forever. There's not enough time in couple therapy to get to the heart of the matter, and I'm now, for the first time, confused about what I want. I've never been unfaithful, but a few times just recently I've felt a strong attraction to someone and have had to deliberately keep myself away from trouble by talking about my wife, children, cats and dogs, as if we were still the model of a happy family. It makes me very sad inside as it's so far from the truth. I've seen what happens when a deceipt and betrayal happens and it's heartbreaking. I don't want to ever do that but for the first time, I feel myself susceptible to temptation and it's a horrific dilemma for me. I don't have anything tangible to fess up, so that's not really a good option. Anybody familiar with such a situation and how to make it end well?

A couple of years ago my DH took me out for a drink, I didn't want to go as he had been off with me for a few days before. He then told me that he had been propositioned a few days before and because our sex life had dwindled he was tempted. Infidelity is a big no for him as his dad cheated on his mum and he has vowed to never do that. The fact that he was tempted hurt both of us but the ensuing conversation strengthened our marriage.

You need to talk to your dw, tell her how you feel and see if you can salvage a loving relationship from this platonic one. If you can, spend time together away from the house and kids and try to reconnect. If you try and can't get anywhere then consider your options, but you owe it to your whole family to try.

My dh and I now have a strong, loving (and sex filled) relationship but things could have been a lot different if he hadn't had the courage to talk to me. I wish you the very best of luck, you sound like a kind, considerate man.

I'm sure you're dw will be gutted that you are attracted to someone else. And may well react badly AT THE TIME. But I think the conversations that come out of it. And the fact you have cut it off. Plus being open about it. Means that it is not going to happen and should make her trust you a lot more...Please do talk to her. Sensitively and kindly, and expect a bad reaction. In the end this is going to be the start of something amazing where you can rediscover each other....Do hope all goes well. And you have certainly made me think twice about what my dh is going through.

There's not enough time in couple therapy to get to the heart of the matter,
sorry- but this is rubbish.

As long as you keep going to therapy, there is time. It might take months or even years. But you can call the shots- why are you NOT talking about what really matters when you are with your counsellor?

You sound as if you are avoiding the real issues.

If the counsellor isn't right for you both, find another one.

ameliagrey -that's a bit harsh. This is our second time in couple therapy. The first time, about six years ago, we stopped because my wife wasn't disclosing anything. Everyone's different. We seem to cover a very small amount of ground in a session and we can't deal with many sessions in close succession as it takes so long to get over each one.

We may well have had months or years ahead to sort this out, as you say, but the reason for this whole thread is that I suspect I'm close to a tipping point and that era is over.

HappyHippyChick - thank you so much for sharing your story and how it ended. :-) I'm glad it worked out finally and draw inspiration from what you say here. I hope we can get to the same place but I can see it is going to take immense courage from both of us....

Aegeansky, I think for your own sake you need to try this. If it doesn't work then you know you tried...but you do need to talk about it. Good luck...and don't get to tipping point for a while. Give her a chance to accept/ talk/ change.

Do you think that your DW still loves you?

Please get yourself a copy of The Sex Starved Marriage by Michele Weiner Davis. It's been the only thing ive come across that has helped me understand my husband's feelings as the spouse with the higher need for sex. She tells the story from both sides so I'm sure it will help you understand your wife's position.

In my case as the low sex spouse, I just didn't realise that for him sex is The main way he feels loved and appreciated... Kind words and affection are nice but just don't fulfil his need in the same way. Unfortunately it is only at the point of splitting up that I've really understood where he's coming from. I wish he'd been able to sit down and tell me how the lack of sex made him feel - lonely unattractive unimportant - rather than just withdrawing and getting angry. It's important to work on the whole of your marriage but I know how damaging having such a big emotional need not met can be, as I'm now fighting to try and help my husband see hope in a future together.

Don't stop trying to explain this to your wife, do it in a loving not demanding way and hopefully she might finally hear you.

Oh, I can understand why there doesn't seem to be enough time in therapy. An hour a week to unravel longstanding and seemingly intractable issues must seem like mopping up a flood with a tissue.

I think what's needed is a major shake-up, but you are astonishingly wise to recognise that having an affair, however tempting, would be the worst thing you could do. It's especially refreshing to read that you recognise the damage you could cause the other person and critically your own sense of self, as well as of course the hurt it would cause your DW and children.

I agree with the posters who suggest that you talk to your wife about the precipice you've reached - and pulled back from, but also understand that you probably need to make some progress in your communication before she might understand its meaning - and not react with defensiveness and hurt.

I think it might help you to examine what positive feelings you still have for your wife and build on those. You have vivid memories of a loving, passionate relationship and you are both the same people as you were then. This isn't a relationship that started without the necessary chemistry and you once had all the basic ingredients and more. Life and the demands of children have perhaps got in the way of that young man and woman and a relationship that had so much promise.

It sounds as though you could get back those strong feelings on your side, but you're right it's a myth that all men are capable of enjoying sex without meaning and this is probably why for you, an affair would be the end of your marriage.

It might be worth processing what your best outcome would be. You could write this down; here or privately, or if funds and time allow, seeing your own separate counsellor. If it emerges that you think you could fall in love again with your wife, this would be a good platform to have some different discussions with your wife. You'll be speaking from a platform of certainty about your own feelings and your hopes for the future.

Your wife will probably only be able to hear about the 'near-miss' when she is convinced that you still love her and want to make the marriage work. When she knows that you haven't given up on her, or your relationship. Even then, she will need time and explanation to see how valuable and precious the near-miss is, to her and your relationship. To pull back from an affair is difficult, especially when the reasons are so understandable and human. This speaks of your character, your self-respect and the respect you have given to all the characters in your story. In an ideal world, this story wouldn't shake your wife's faith in you; it would reinforce it a hundredfold.

As others have said, handled well and from the security of being loved, it might be the change that's needed. The catalyst for your wife to join you in your efforts to get back on track and recapture something that you describe as being far too precious to lose permanently.

CrackFox, I don't know anymore. She hasn't said so for a very, very long time. I don't know what she thinks. She is tired, overwhelmed by her work and the routine and responsibilities of her life. I can't blame her for not having much left over.

Madmedea, I will get a copy - thanks for the recommendation. I may even casually leave it lying about, not in a 'hey, read this!' way, but just as a way into a discussion that obviously needs to happen. I don't feel angry about the witholding of any sexual activity. I feel tremendous isolation and a loneliness on a cosmic scale- we're lying next to each other but we're a million miles away. Indeed, I've even spent a few days on my own without her and felt far less lonely, as I'm then relying on my own resources.

One of the problems for me is that I don't think she has a distinctive way of treating me differently to others - hard to explain, but one example is that often she tells me a narrative about her day in a particular way and then I hear her say exactly the same story at the same level of detail to someone else. Couple this with the sexlessness and I really wonder what it is that I represent for her, apart from being a father to our children.

Please please use the counselling sessions to disclose your temptations and feelings. She is not a child, she can hear it. We took four sessions to get there, but sadly, I personally know someone who went for a year and didnt. The counsellor cannot make you say whats on your mind. But is you start the ball rolling with an honest and truthful and omit nothing approach, I believe she will follow. My counsellor explained to us that it usually works like that- one of you has to break the dam, and the other follows. Lead the way.

I do wonder how many other couples are having sexless marriages? I think that this is a much bigger problem than anyone lets on.

I really related to what anonamater was saying. We've had problems too and it's been/is hard to make my dh understand that I don't necessarily want to have sex the moment we wake up or just after we stumble into bed. I need to feel wanted and loved and all those little things anonamater was talking about really do count. I think it's one of the fundamental differences between men and women. Men would be satisified (generally speaking) with a quickie nearly all the time, whereas women need sex to begin way before they even hit the bed. I cannot go from watching a DVD with dh and having a casual conversation to full on sex. It just doesn't work like that. I don't think even now that dh quite understands that. He thinks it's just me being awkward.

I'm going to go against the flow here and say DON'T tell her about this other girl. If she's suffering from low self esteem and a bit of depression that information may well just push her further away from you.

Instead what I would do is to write down everything that you feel. Everything you've said here about how miserable you are, about how much you miss her and how hard it is to bring all this into the open. Tell her that you are afraid of upsetting her, afraid of hurting her but you feel that you are both hurting. Tell her what it feels like inside, that pain of rejection, that misery.
Then either give it to her to read by herself or give it to your counsellor at the next session.

Letters are much better because there can be no misunderstandings and no recriminations. Instead she can take her time to read your words and dwell on their meaning.

Arrange a babysitter, book a table at a restaurant and discuss the contents of the letter with her. Calmly and gently. If she gets defensive, angry or upset it's important that you remain calm and don't argue back. Because situations like this are raw with emotion and I would suggest tackling it somewhere like a restaurant because you do have to reign yourself in then, you can't have an all-out bargy in front of the kids. You are forced to be civilised and calm and because neither of you can storm out (well not without causing a scene) you are both forced to confront the issues and hear each other out.

Yes it may well be painful for you and her, but this situation is not without pain and the longer you leave it, the more painful it is becoming. I doubt very much that she can be happy with the situation. Perhaps she feels unable to talk to you about it for the very fears that you describe. Don't think that she is perfectly content to live life this way, trust me she won't be. She must know that this is not the way things are meant to be and she will be having similar thoughts to you, which is why it's so frustrating that you are not both communicating. I mean, this is a the massive elephant in the room isn't it? You both know there is something wrong but neither of you are willing to confront it.

Write that letter. Book that restaurant. The worse case scenario is that she refuses to go and refuses to talk. Well then at least if she keeps the letter she is reminded of how you feel and you don't have to carry on pretending everything is ok.

I think you are scared that if you say something, you are giving her the opportunity to call time on the relationship, but if she was going to do that, she would have done so by now. Perhaps that is what she is scared of too? She obviously does think the marriage is worth saving or she would not have gone to counselling sessions with you. By confronting the issue you are telling her that you care and that may be all she needs to hear. You've taken the first step, you've opened up on here and that must have taken guts. Now take a deep breath and take the next step. You never know, this may be the happiest Christmas you've had in a long time, but you need to make that happen.

No more excuses, you've a marriage to save.

what DO you talk about in marriage counselling if not this huge issue ?

I agree with what so many others hve said. My marriage was virtually sexless for the last few years because I had lost all respect for my husband, and for me this precluded having an intimate relationship.

why do you think you have stopped having sex ? why do you think she has stopped having (or seeming to want) sex with you?

I think you show great maturity and committment in wanting to address these issues within your marriage, and the 'care and respect' for your wife you speak of, makes me think there is something left to work on....

good luck

Madmedea, that's a really thoughtful post.

"I've even spent a few days on my own without her and felt far less lonely". I have felt very similar to that before. Sometimes when dh walks through the door, his very presence reminds me of all our issues and I feel immediately burdened. I think we are making process as I gradually have a little more time for myself and to do more than just survive. Is your dw in 'survival mode' (it sounds like it). Can you take some of the pressure off her? Are there things which could help? Just wondering, as if you can join a club, it sounds like you have some free time! Giving her some space for herself will melt her heart as well as give her the time to get in touch a little bit with what she is feeling. I would also suggest that she needs to take some responsibility for making her life a bit less demanding, whether that is leave work. It is better to leave a job than have a failed marriage and maybe it's time for some drastic measures.

I agree re, taking the pressures of her. If you took the kids out for a day whilst she went Christmas shopping she'd be very grateful I'm sure. And how about the odd cup of tea or cooking her meal for when she got back? Or even making her a packed lunch for work and inserting a little note with a bar of chocolate?

These little things mean the world to us you know. They are just small reminders that our partners care for us and are willing to put in a little effort each and every day to make us feel special and loved. If you do that for her then chances are that she will re-discover her love for you and may even start to show you spontaneous bits of affection too.

How to melt a woman's heart eh? I think every teenage boy needs to spend time on Mumsnet to learn about women before being let loose in the world!

Aegeansky your posts have really struck a chord with me. I am in a relationship very similar to yourself only seeing things from a female perspective instead.
I wonder what the point is, why are we together when we can't speak, talk, have fun, it is like we have so much unspoken that we can't get past.

Our sex life is pretty remote. I lost interest when I had my DS and I have no idea how to rekindle it when I don't even think about it ever. I worried about leading my DH on, and if I showed him affection would he think I wanted sex, then I got scared it would and just stopped being affectionate. He saw that as rejection and gave up trying. He is similar to you in that he won't just do it, he wants me to enjoy it, but how can I when I'm so terrified. I'd prefer to just have sex, as quickly as possible and hope that that might lead me to start thinking about it again (I read that more leads to more, if you see what I mean).

I'm rambling, but I'm in the dilemma, do we just muddle on through or make a change somewhere. Is relate the place to go, is counselling a help?

What would I like my DH to do? Book a holiday, take me away somewhere, no children, have fun, remember what we saw in each other, ask me if we can have sex (hopefully I'm feeling brave and say yes) and just have sex, don't worry about me, I'll be going along with the flow, if I don't want to do it I will say stop. Talk about our plans, our future together, what we like about each other, not what we don't. Kiss, hold hands.

I don't think I'm heading anywhere with this post, just wanted to share my thoughts as we seem to be in the same difficult place.

But not everyone's the same.

The OP has said he needs to feel loved to want sex. A lot of men feel this way. We don't know enough about his wife to assume that feeling more loved will lead to her wanting sex. It's often unhelpful I think, to assume that all women need to feel loved to want sex. We can only speak for ourselves and listen to what people tell us. People are individuals and will often depart from the gender-based social constructions about sex.

I'm not sure people are saying if she feels loved then she'll want sex. However, it's a sure bet that if she doesn't feel loved then she'll definitely not want sex. I know for me, if I'm feeling loved then I'll feel more able to cuddle, then feel more able to kiss, etc. etc.

My point is that it sounds like she needs some space to process things, including how she feels about her dh, how to get 'over' issues like the sex thing, spend some time feeling good about herself etc. If you are so busy that you're just surviving, as a woman I don't think you'll even be wanting sex - with anyone!

Charbon, true and I did say that I was making a generalisation about men. However what MM says is equally true, if his wife doesn't feel loved then she won't want sex with him. From what we have learnt so far, she is unresponsive to touch and kisses (which could be because of what smurfling and I have said, that fear of affection leading to other things that we are not ready for) and they have not had sex for a very long time. If she was up for a quickie without all the romance and foreplay then surely it would have happened? But the sex seems to have stopped along with the affection and love which makes me think that they are all linked.

But that's not true of all women. There have been many times in my life when I haven't need to feel loved to want sex and I know plenty of women who are the same. It might be true for some women, but that's personal to them, just as the OP's feelings are personal to him.

No I know and that's not what I'm saying. I'm talking about the OP's wife and not making a general statement about women. Of course plenty of women just want quickies as well as sex with all the bells on it and are very happy like that, but the OP's wife doesn't appear to be one of those women.

I hadn't got that impression at all you see Cliff. In fact, from what the OP has said it's a complete mystery why his wife feels the way she does. I also think there is a natural tendency on threads like this for us posters to 'fill in the gaps' and project how we might feel, or in some cases do feel as a woman.

I see lots of threads on this site from women who seem to accept that as women, it's natural to have a lower or completely absent sex drive. And when they write, lots of posters suggest that it's because the OP doesn't feel loved or cherished, in the process projecting their own values about sex.

As distinct from the very few people of both sexes who are asexual, IME some women go off sex for the same reasons as some men, despite the heavy and relentless conditioning that men have higher sex drives than women and that men can have sex regardless of feelings. Those reasons range from not fancying their partners any more, having an affair or on the verge of one, resentment about something in the relationship, stress, depression, medication, contraception, psychological issues relating to sex itself, sexual trauma....the list is inexhaustible. Not feeling loved is just one of the reasons why some people go off sex and as we've seen here, it's not something that's peculiar to women. And it's no more natural for a previously sexual woman to develop an aversion to sex, than it is for a man.

One thing to consider, OP: do you think your wife is content with your family life? Do you get the feeling she is going to therapy to keep you quiet, or does she imply in any way that she would like things to change in the marriage? Because there are people who don't have much interest in sex and/or lose what interest they had in sex after they have had DC, and would in fact be perfectly happy to live in a sexless marriage as long as the bills were paid and the DC looked after. If your wife is contented and her hopes for the therapy are that it will make you stop wanting sex or intimacy from her, then there may not be much you can do to save the relationship. However if she feels that there are problems within the marriage that need fixing then there is more chance of fixing them. Because you can't make someone else change, not even with the assistance of professionals, if the person doesn't want to change.

She may be content now (I doubt it, I think we all need to fell loved/ desired if we're in touch with how we're feeling). But even if she is content with the status quo, she needs to know that the status quo is very likely to change if their relationship doesn't change. She's entitled to know that and be given a chance to work it out.