Should I let my children see my paedophile FIL?

[FiremanSamsFireEngine]

I hope you can help me with this awful situation. Over 3 years ago, when I was pregnant with our first child, my husband and I discovered that my FIL had been arrested for downloading thousands of the most serious levels of child pornography, systematically for over a year. He plead guilty and was convicted. My DH was shocked and devastated as you can imagine, and I didn't ever want to see him again, and certainly not let our children (we have now had 2 kids) ever have any contact. At the time my husband said that our children would never have to have any contact with him.

Our children have never met my FIL, and my husband has limited contact with his family. 3 years on and my husband now wants our children to attend gatherings of his extended family where his father will be present. He no longer wants his father airbrushed out of our lives.

I am freaking out. I don't see what good it will do to introduce our children this man. It goes against every single one of my instincts to protect them - physically and emotionally. As they get older (they are 3 and 2) they will start to ask more and more questions. I don't know how I will be able to answer why they don't see their grandfather often, why he doesn't touch them (over my dead body) when they see him. What if they go to embrace him? etc etc... It's just going to get more and more complicated and horrible.

A paedophile is someone with a sexual interest in children, not just someone who assaults children. He has demonstrated a seriously dishonest nature (he managed to keep his obsession a secret, even from his wife, for over a year). I do not want our children to have contact with someone like this. It will just get more and more emotionally complicated for everyone.

Me and my husband have been at loggerheads over this for some time. I have finally agreed that we'll attend a family gathering next week and the kids will be introduced to the FIL, but with strict ground rules. Just an introduction: "this is Daddy's daddy", no physical contact, and that this is not the start of some sort of reconcillation. I feel sick about it, and am very worried I am doing the wrong thing in an attempt to make my husband happy (he has acknowledged he is only doing this for himself, not for the kids).

What would you do? Could you imagine yourself ever agreeing to this?

I won't be able to check this forum until tomorrow night, but hope I can get some sense from other people (due to the shameful nature of this I have been unable to talk to friends about it) and will be able to reply then. Thanks in advance

Very very brave post whitebread.

Mr OP please take note of the above post. The damage caused by child pornography does not end with the prosecution of the offender. The victims have to live with the effects forever.

There is no forgiving your DH--he is and always will be a paedophille and a danger to children.
I am so sorry for you but it is YOUR duty as a father to protect your DC's from this man.

I am so sorry to hear your story :( People do tend to see it as a victimless crime when it's 'just photos' - your post proves just how wrong they are.

Whitebread, what a brave, articulate and heart wrenching post. I hope the OP shows it to her husband.

Sending my respect to you Whitebread.

Your testimony is powerful-please let OP's DH read it. Please let him understand. i work everyday with clients living with the effects of sexual abuse. I see what it can do to mental health.

Whitebread - you have written a very brave, moving and compelling account (not at all garbled - it made me realise more than I had before about what the fallout of this kind of thing can be for the victim).

I wish someone could take that 'stain' away from you, or that you could let it go from you yourself. You have no need to feel dirty. As such a young child, you could have done nothing wrong - you would have been innocent in this.

Just to add to the support for OP's position (also, to offer my respect to Whitebread who is incredibly brave for posting).

I unwittingly took DS to visit a relative who I then found out was on the sex offenders' register (was visiting other relatives at the time - they didn't tell me). Mercifully I knew that this guy was pretty mixed up in a lot of other respects, so there was no chance that DS would have been left unattended, but I was still furious when I discovered others knew of his offending but hadn't seen fit to tell me. A week or so later I got a phone call (first of several) from the police officer in charge of offender management in the part of the country where these relatives live, partly to check that my account tallied with my relatives (he'd breached the terms of his probation by meeting DS - something to bear in mind Mr. OP), and partly for child protection reasons, to make sure my DS wasn't at risk. I had several painful, but useful conversations with this police officer, and the child protection officer in my local force. Basically, the line was (and these are male police officers, not "hysterical females") that said relative is dangerous, likely (in the opinion of the criminal psychologist who is part of his probation team) to remain dangerous for the forseeable future, and I should not let my son have any further contact - even by post, of the "Christmas card" sort of level (which I'm very relieved about - it's what I was intending anyway, but good to have my opinion backed up by professionals). One interesting thing which I hadn't thought of, which might be worth considering, both in terms of what you expose your children to and also in terms of DH's response, is the issue of influence. Relative's offences were against rather older girls, not young boys, and I already knew (having friends who are educational psychologists/child protection officers/social workers) that offences tend to be gender and age specific, so DS probably wasn't at that much risk (not that I'd have chanced it in a million years). However, the Det. S on the offender management team pointed out that you don't want sex offenders playing a role in children's lives in such a way that they can "normalise" this sort of behaviour and influence what children see as normal.

So you really don't want this man anywhere round your children, not as a knee jerk tabloid stone-the-paedo response, but as the considered professional opinion of police officers who work with such people. By the way, I say this as someone who thinks that the best strategy for minimising the risk of re-offending is to integrate offenders back into adult society as much as possible under very, very close supervision - which I'm glad to say my relative seems to be under. Driving them to do a midnight flit and set up in a new town, under a new name, without any sort of supervision from police, probation services or social services is much more dangerous. (I hope this won't be seen as disrespectful by those who have been abused - I'm talking here solely about minimising future risk, given that offenders generally can't be rehabilitated and are released back into the community after custodial sentences).

Whitebread - you're one of the bravest people I've ever 'met'. Excellent and courageous post.

Mr OP, if you still want your kids to meet your father after that post then you really are so wrong I can't even begin to understand you.

Respect to Whitebread.

You are awesome. Your post made me cry.

I have a 6 year old boy. The very thought that somebody should do to him what was done to you, make me want to go out and do something really nasty to the pervs and those supporting them.

I haven't posted on this thread so far. I thought the general feeling was so clear and unanimous, my witterings wouldn't have added anything.

However, after reading WB's post I have to just say in my own small way, that I am so, so sorry that this happened to you. I am in tears at your trauma and your bravery. xx

Either that counsellor is guilty of spectacularly missing the point, or what she said has been taken way out of context and used to justify something she never meant by it. If you're talking about whether OP's DH should hate his father for what he did, then her comment is fair enough. If, on the other hand, she was saying that forgiving means pretending the deed never happened, to the extent that you don't cover the potential risk to children, that was indeed amazingly dreadful.

Had she been asked whether she recommended a known paedophile should have contact with his grandchildren, that's a completely different matter and quite unrelated to hate or forgiveness. The "hate the deed not the person" remark is irrelevant - hate itself is irrelevant - do you trust him around your children, is it worth taking the risk, those are the questions. Maybe a man can't just switch off his love for his own father; maybe he shouldn't be expected to. That has nothing to do with whether he hands over his own children as a sacrifice to that love.

I've used the comparison before of a scorpion. You don't need to hate a scorpion for stinging; it's just in its nature. But even if you like little creepy-crawlies (I do!) it still stings and you can't trust it not to. You can't let your toddler play with it. Oh but it didn't mean to. Too bloody late.

Oh and... Whitebread... you're amazing. That's all.

Yes, MMJ, I agree

It's a small but very significant distinction, and I pick up on it, not to be pedantic, but because it seems Mr OP is going to read the thread

some "pornography" is between two (or more of course) consenting individuals (if you believe that fully...but lets not go there today)

children cannot consent, so what you are viewing is photographed/filmed sexual abuse of chidren

a point worth making again and again, IMO

Excellent point AnyFucker and MMJ, I'd never thought about it like that before. Language is a very powerful tool and shouldn't be used to lend even a SLIVER of normalcy to the rape of children.

Under no circumstances would he be anywhere near my children. Stand by this OP. I know a fair amount about paedophilia in my work and I can tell you that you really really should not let him anywhere near them (and if you really do mean the highest level of abuse images, we are talking horrific indeed). It's not about what could happen directly to your children (probably nothing as they will obvioously be completely supervised) it is about the implicit sanctioning of his actions by the presense that any kind of normal family contacts are appropriate, and the message that the presence of your children gives about what you think about his offences.

I've used the comparison before of a scorpion. You don't need to hate a scorpion for stinging; it's just in its nature. But even if you like little creepy-crawlies it still stings and you can't trust it not to. You can't let your toddler play with it.

This is the essential point about abusers, Annie, imo. Hating the person doesn't come into it. Recognising that they do what they do, and will do again, is much more important. Pretending it's okay will not stop it happening or reduce the risk, and it won't make the child any safer.

Every so often, we see a story about a fight dog that has maimed a baby. The families always say "But he's so gentle around family! We never thought he'd do this!" It's not a case of the dog 'turning against' family. He was bred and trained to maim creatures of his own size, who move against him. The baby pokes at his face, the dog is unable to make an exception in this case - he's carrying out his mission in life, not making a reasoned choice.

This isn't the place to conduct a full explanation of abusive processes, but it might be worth DH viewing his father's crimes in this light. It is tragic for the perpetrator. But it's one, significant, aspect of his character that would be foolish to ignore.

That you feel so incredibly strongly about it, DH, suggests you're more under his control than you realise. Families close ranks around their abuser - something abusers invest much effort in promoting - such that they feel an abnormal level of loyalty. This effect is deliberately created by the abusive 'controller' amongst them. Since children lack the capacity to make informed judgements, they take it on board as the natural order of things. This training remains with them through adulthood, unquestioned unless something jolts them out of it. Being jolted is a frightening experience; we all try to ignore it until we have to face it.

If this is your 'jolt', I really do share your upset and disquiet. Please be assured it's possible to take things on board bit by bit, compromising along the way. Your wife is suggesting just such a compromise; I hope you can see that.
All the best.

I feel so much for both you and your husband. I can't even begin to imagine how it feels to discover that your loving and caring father finds the rape of children sexually exciting. It must be so hard to connect that awful person with the person that brought you up with (presumably) no hint of his true feelings. I can understand his want to see his family-why should he suffer because of the actions of his father? However, any normal family would have disowned this disgusting man. Your husband has probably been subjected to slow persuasion from his father and other family members that his father's actions weren't as bad as they actually were, and that he no longer has the instincts he once had. I think, if your husband believes this, it is both because he wants his old father back and that he is spending too much time talking to his family members, who also believe this. I'm am truly horrified that your niece/nephew is in regular contact with your father-in-law.

I would find it very difficult to allow your mother-in-law into your family life as well. By staying with her husband, I feel she is, to some extent, advocating his behaviour. And the fact that she takes so many photos of your children is completely insensitive and quite disturbing if she then shows them to her husband. I wouldn't allow her to take photos of my child if I thought they would be shown to a peadophile.

You are doing absolutely the right thing in not allowing any form of contact between your children and their grandfather. They will be infintely better off if they never even think of him throughout their lives. It must be extremely difficult for you to have had this issue with your husband over contact, but you must never give in. I would rather a complete separation from your husband, than allow this peadophile to see your children, whether they are at direct risk or not. His influence in their lives could never be a good thing.

I think your husband may benefit from counselling in order to accept what his father is and allow him to see this man for what he is. It may all be brought up again one day (I don't believe his father could just stop these fantasies) and it'll be even harder for your husband to move on from a second time round.

Sorry for the long post and definitely report that dreadful Relate counsellor.

OP - I find it interesting that, without having read the thread, your dh would make assumptions of 'a load of hysterical women'. Is this usually the way he reacts towards people whom he fears might not agree with him? Might be worth pointing out to him the demographics of this site - I understand that Mumset attracts a higher than average percentage of women with, for example, a background of tertiary education, political engagement and professional careers. Not that you need any of the above to have an accurate and valid understanding of this subject, of course, but he sounds like something out of the nineteenth century.

it certainly sounds like he is the product of his (dysfunctional) family dynamic

Why can't your husband go on his own?

Thank you for your post whitebread, it can't have been easy to write that.

firemansam I think the relate counsellor has missed the most important point here - nobody can guarantee that your FIL won't repeat his behaviour and it is your legal and moral duty to protect your children.

Please tell your DH to remember that relate counsellors have limited training, they are not expert psychologists. (I believe that they only have around 6 weeks training but correct me if I'm wrong). They are not taught to understand or deal with deviant behaviour or sexual abuse.

I suggest that you discuss the issue with a social worker or a police child protection officer - you will get a very different opinion because they have had the appropriate training to understand the situation.

The children are protected. That's very clear.

The question is whether or not they, as a family, allow a man into their life who supports child rape and abuse. Even if they didn't have any children, I would say: no.

The hysterical women comment was really unnecessary, wasn't it? And inaccurate.

The OPs DH seems to think only hysterical women think peadophilia is wrong, and that there is some sort of story to his father's actions that excuses it -what would that be, that his father was in fact stalked by toddlers bombarding him with images of themselves? He admitted he did it, there is no excuse. Yet I bet you anything at any family gatherings no-one will be allowed to mention it, despite it not being a big deal. I seriously doubt DH will think it is ok to ask his father if he still masterbates to pictures of children being raped, tortured, humilated etc. Because that was what he was doing, he was not casually cruisng the internet looking for pictures of jordan naked and accidently hit a child abuse site. It appears he actively went looking for images of violent and sexual crimes against children, downloaded them for his own viewing pleasure, and kept on doing it for months. If I found out any man I knew had been downloading images of grown women being raped, and tortured I would call the police and cease all contact, so why make excuses because the victims were little children.
And I would complain to relate and tell them one of their counsellors implied you had a problem for reacting badly to sex crimes against children.
Had FIL had any history of this, it seems odd that a man of his age suddenly becomes sexually attracted to children.

Only read first page so far, but

NO FUCKING WAY.

DH and I were both abused as children so thankfully we feel the same way.