Should I ignore my mum's comments to my DS when they make my blood run cold? (long, sorry)

[NoNoNoMYDoIt]

Background - I have 2 DCs (DS 5 and DD 2). I am separated from their father but the children have shared residence with both their father and me.

My parents live 150 miles away so when they come to visit, they always stay.

My relationship with my parents is strained at best. My mother is very controlling and disapproves of me in just about every way imaginable.

This is about the way she is with the kids, tho. She can't cope with their behaviour at all (and their behaviour is far from awful). She rises to every single situation and gets very stressed by them. My father is also very short with them and calls DD 'child', rather than her proper name.

When they come to stay, I find it very stressful, not least because I hear my mum talking to the children, mainly DS at the moment but I can see it starting with DD also, in the same tone that she used with me. When I was growing up, I was always a 'horrid child', 'stupid', 'retarded, 'the worst thing that happened' to her. She 'rued the day I was born', wished she had never had me etc etc. And of course this has left me with woeful self esteem and an inability to form a real bond with another adult.

I am desperate to protect my children from this and go over the top (probably) to make sure they never have anything negative said about them. I still discipline their behaviour, with time-out / warnings and withdrawal of privileges etc. But it is their behaviour which is horrid or naughty, not them, and I am very clear about that.

So when my mum comes and starts saying to my son 'you are a nasty horrid little boy', I want to scream at her. But I don't.

I can't tackle her about this as she has only just started talking to me again after I went to court in the summer over residence of the kids - it didn't go the way she thought was best and she withdrew all contact with me for 4 months after the court ruling. If I try to say anything to her, she will just stop talking to me again, which is fine but then the kids miss out on seeing them altogether. The kids still ask to see their GPs so I know the relationship is important to my kids.

So am I right to just ignore what she says? I end up so stressed when she is here, because every time the kids get over-excited and start to play up, I worry she is going to start saying hateful things to them. As a result, I can't leave them on their own with her and my dad. I have tried to go for a run (for 40 minutes) while they are staying, but when I get home, usually one, and sometimes both, of the children is upstairs in its bedroom screaming because it is in trouble for something and has been sent to bed. My mother has a tendency to scream like a banshee and I cannot bear the thought that she might do this to my kids.

well done NoNo, your children will thank you for all this one day.

mathanxiety - nothing in the court order, but plenty in the magistrate's report about how unreasonable of me it was to have a problem with waiting for his permission to do things. i waited 3 months for him to confirm that i could have the kids for a particular week in august. in the end, i just sent him an email saying 'unless you respond by lunchtime tomorrow, i am booking this week away with the children'. the only problem is that he claims not to read or sometimes even receive my emails... and even when i put things in writing to him, he disputes the agreement.

every time there is a school holiday, i dread trying to get him to agree to which days he has them and which days i have them. he just doesn't respond when i ask him, even if i ask him face to face.

but anyway, this thread isn't about me and my exh; it's about my kids. i think partly why i am feeling so awful at the moment is that this has brought back to me the reality of my childhood. i think i had tried to suppress a lot of what went on, thinking it wasn't relevant and didn't matter. and now i realise that it accounts in a large measure for the way i am. and that my parents will never respect me and love me in the way i need them to. and not only that - but they will treat my children in the same way they treated me. and that is such a huge insult to me and my children.

lovely, am a family lawyer. i obviously dont know the details of what your court order says re residence etc and what is said there will be determinative of what is permitedetc. but I would be amazed if it said you need his permission for getting feet measured.... in tha=e absence of such words the possition is that you and exh both have parental responsibility for your children and both have residence (defined in the order). That means that you have to consult EACH OTHER re significant decisions... school attended / elective healthcare / other SIGNIFICANT decisions. you are the person excercising pr when they are with you and you don't have to consult him over every trivial everyday parenting decision (nor he you)... if the terms of the order are unduly restrictive and he is not keeping to the terms (ie not replying when you sek to consult him) you could apply to have terms of the order varied / tell him that you will no longer be consulting him re trivial decisions and see how he responds. if in any doubt please get some proper advice.

i know this is not what your op was about but i am so angry that you are being bullied from all sides. your exh sounds a bully and a knob and your parents.... well words fail me. i can see from your posts that you are trying so hard to do what you think is best for your dc but it must be so hard and confusing when you have been bullied and abused and this seems "normal".

i really fail to see what good is likely to come from allowing your horrible horrible parents to continue to bully and abuse you and their dc. they clealy have no boundaries, no self control and no kindness or empathy. i remenber you saying in op how they punished YOU for the outcome of the court case??? WTF?

Am so pleased you are going to get some counselling help. the independent objective help of someone who does have appropriate boundaries and who has not been conditioned to accept this ill treatment can only be helpful.

Please pursue their abuse of dd with the police. they could be charged with asault / child cruelty etc. they need the fear of god put up them quite frankly. How DARE they behave like this? I know it is hard but i think you need to get fucking angry!

Sorry for the ranting but i really do feel outraged on your behalf and your poor dcs. Good luck op.

"sometimes I feel too that they are bullies. But then the next moment I think it is all in my head and I deserve that treatment because I am indeed a waste of space,"
That is such an emotive statement, do you think Baby P was a waste of space or Victoria Climbie or the many hundreds of babies who were abused and killed by supposedly loving members of their families? I know they haven't been that physical but they have worn you down with their mental abuse and if you don't get out now they will only do it again. Your mum has admitted she would. As for the coward comment thank god for 'cowards' getting involved and outing abusers annoynmously

Please cut them out, it will be better for you all and you say last summer was great without them, imagine your whole life being great without them.

I hope you can get through this and youre counsellor can help you build a happier childhood for your kids

oldqueenie - you are right, the court order doesn't say that i have to consult him for all decisions. but such a big thing was made of the fact that i raised in my statement the fact that he insisted that i consult him before i took the kids to get their hair cut and then didn't respond when i told him i was planning to. the magistrates made out that i was being unreasonable because he was a caring father who wanted to be involved in the children's lives.

there are so many examples of where he has lambasted me for making decisions about the children when they are with me, eg my choice not to buy baby sleeping bags for DD, aged 18 months, when i moved out of the family home; rather to give her a duvet in her cot - all of which i had to buy myself as he wouldn't let me take anything with me. he said i couldn't make a decision like that about what DD slept in and went nuts at me about it. and yet, a year later, he takes the sides of her cot and converts it into a bed at his house without informing me that he was going to do it - and that was fine! so of course, when she came back to my house she said, 'i sleep in a bed at daddy's. i want a bed here'. thanks for informing me and giving me a chance to do the same thing...

fundamentally, i do know that exh is not an evil man. he is an awkward man, and i am not strong enough to stand up to him... i think i now know why that is.

well maybe in a truly horrible way your parents have done you a favour by their awful treatment of dd (not well worded i know)... if they hadnt acted in such an extreme and totally unacceptable way you may have gone on for years allowing them to insiduously emotionally abuse the dcs because it didnt seem "that bad" to you ... their assault and ill treatment is so extreme it cant be ignored or leave you wondering how seriously to judge it... it seems the very moment they got the chance they BOTH acted without any self control and were violent and cruel. what next? it's a wake up call. ahorrid one but one you can act on to change things for the future.

dont let dh bully you. do what you think is right and reasonable and in dcs best interests and you cant go far wrong....

I am pleased you have the support of a counsellor. I think your exH is at best a bullying entitled knob and your parents are damaging vicious bullies.
I think you should speak to your counsellor and perhaps think about a step by step approach to the issues you face. Maybe it is too much for you to deal with your ex and your parents at the same time.
It seems to me that your current most pressing priority is to deal with your parents' behaviour and how you distance yourself from them. Once you have dealt with that then you may find you have more confidence and energy to deal with your exH.

As to the magistrates report, I am concerned that you are so used to being criticised that you are reading the report as being far more critical of you than perhaps it really was. When you are ready, is there a third party you trust who you could ask to read the report and give you their objective view of how the report reads to them.

I can't beleive your mum called your dd a 'nightmare! This woman terrified your child into wetting herself and then smacked her for it - her own granddaughter? Who's the nightmare?
I hope the police can terrify her into realising how despicable her behaviour is.

"As to the magistrates report, I am concerned that you are so used to being criticised that you are reading the report as being far more critical of you than perhaps it really was. When you are ready, is there a third party you trust who you could ask to read the report and give you their objective view of how the report reads to them."

god, yes, absolutely.

"but anyway, this thread isn't about me and my exh; it's about my kids."

OP: You're quite right in what you say there, but your kids are being affected by the unhealthy relationship between the two of you.

Also, I know I'm not going to be very nice about your parents, but turn your dwelling on what they've done to your daughter into action.

There's no need for a showdown which would be uber-stressful for you anyway. Use the stealth method. Contact by phone or email only. You will then give yourself emotional space and head space to deal with them. Use the mental image of both your children hugging your legs, you're slightly bent over, hugging both of them with one hand. The other arm is totally extended, as if you're leaning on a wall, with the palm of your hand pointing outwards and stopping anything coming beyond that point. That includes your parents. Your children are beyond that point of reach for your parents. This is what you must do. I know that every child has the right to a good relationship with their grand parents, but they don't have the right to an abusive one. You are the lynchpin here. You can do this. You know you can. You just need that push to do it.

There's a saying: Don't get mad, get even. This is what that is about. Use the images you're dwelling on, to get even, not to become tied up in what has happened. You can't change that now. But you can change what happens to your lovely children in the future.

I think you've been recommended some books - if you can, start ploughing your way through them - but I do know that it can be emotionally exhausting......

Keep going and keep drawing strength from your counsellor and from people on here who want to see you and your children freed from the tyranny of those abusive people.........

When you have sorted the parents, you must set your sights on your agreement with your ex. I think you will have more confidence once you get used to life without your parents presence there. They come across as more then just common or garden toxic, but verging on malevolent. They will no doubt give you grief about your decision and resist strongly (even to the extent of becoming becoming uncharacteristically sweet or apologetic) when it becomes clear to them what is afoot. I hope you will lean on your counsellor through the process.

I have an agreement with my ex where every single day of the year is accounted for. There is no going back and forth figuring out where they will be on any given day. We alternate weekends. We alternate Easter from year to year. I have them for the first half of the Christmas holiday from school and he has them for the second half. He has them for the whole day on Christmas Eve every year and I have them for Christmas day. I have them for my birthday even if it falls on a weekend day that is his and vice versa for his birthday. I have them on Mother's Day and he has them on Father's Day. There are other school holidays that are divided up fairly evenly. We each get to have an annual 12 day summer holiday with them if we choose, give six weeks notice of the proposed dates, and if travel out of the jurisdiction is involved permission needs to be given. He gets first choice of summer dates one year and I get them the next year.

A detailed agreement doesn't guarantee a quiet life, but it gives you recourse to the courts and something concrete to argue about if things break down. It hasn't been altogether smooth sailing for me. He has a big problem understanding that the weekend visitation schedule is suspended for time that is designated holiday time, like the Christmas holiday, and that issue will end up in a showdown in court after next Christmas if he presses for a weekend during the first half of the school Christmas holiday. He has dragged me to court three times since 2009 on contempt of court motions arising from his paranoia and hostility to me and centered around accusations that I have broken the agreement, which I have successfully defended.

Wrt communication, answers to requests, informing the other party, etc., my agreement gives each of us instructions as to what is necessary to communicate, and time frames in which to reply. The matters requiring consultation and not requiring it are as OldQueenie described. As a courtesy and in order to let the children have lives that are as normal as possible, he gets a school calendar and athletic calendar, and parents phone him to arrange playtimes or outings with the DCs if it's his weekend, and me if it's mine. I pass on party invitations for the DCs for him to rsvp to if the occasion will fall during his time and he does not put them down for activities or classes that would require effort for me during my time.

My ex is free to feed the DCs junk on his weekends. His business. I am free to feed them whatever I want to in turn. I do not feel any need to do as he does with them or second guess what I do to try to fit into some mental mould of WWXD (what would x do?) nor would I interpret him, for instance, getting them bunk beds as a signal that the beds they have at home are inadequate, that the children should have the same at home, that he upstaged me; I do what I do and he does what he does. I don't approve of half of what I hear about their time with him, but I don't ask for details; if the DCs report something and want to talk about it well and good. Disengagement is necessary for the sake of sanity.

just have no idea what sort of state your head is in if you think it would ever be ok for your innocent kids to see these 'brutal' as you said it people again.
Your thinking is skewed, because of them, but you surely must know that they should never come to your home again.

they are disgusting.

NoNo, being an orphan (cutting off your parents) isn't that bad you know. A very good side effect is that you will tentatively learn to reach out to others - you know, grow that trust muscle, because you and your sense of self isn't being hammered all the time.

Don't worry, baby steps. I would ignore H for the time being and do the 'unless I hear from you I will take that as agreement' route on the big stuff. But hair, shoes, bedding? Forget about it.

NoNoNo- I've been lurking for a few days cos I didn't have anything useful to say. But yesterday I was struck by just how lovely and reasonable you have been through this whole thread. You've barely had a bad word to say- and have even praised your xP who sounds like he may have made life rather difficult. Your love for your kids shines through and I bet you are a bloody brilliant mum. Have faith in yourself.

how are you doing op?

thanks all. this is a rude awakening for me. i thought i had done a lot of work coming to terms with stuff last year, but i really hadn't sorted the half of it.

i am struck by what Abitwobblynow said about reaching out to people. I have MAJOR trust issues - and i always expect the worst of people. that was something my exh always said to me - and now i can see where he was coming from. and now i know why i trust no-one - the people who were supposed to protect me in life have consistently let me down, and i have continued to expose myself to them (and my kids also) and let myself be let down by them. only by distancing myself from this and stopping the constant hurt will i slowly learn to trust people again because i will have stopped longing for respect and trust from the 2 people who will never give me that.

i have also always felt like a truly sordid and horrid person. whenever anyone has said how lovely i am, i have always thought (or said) 'ah but wait till you get to know me'. because deep down i have always believed what my mother told me consistently as i child, i guess.

i can't wait to see the counsellor on saturday. i am ready to take my big stand now...

keep going, you'll get there!

it must all be really painful op. good luck with seeing the counsellor. stay strong.

thinking of you op. you're really very brave.

Just wanted to wish you the very best OP. You can get through all of this and make your life and your DCs lives so much happier.

Oh nono I feel very moved by your situation. What a shit time you're having. I simply can't imagine having to live under the sort of constraints that your ex, for instance, is imposing on you, but I know that's the reality for many separated parents.
You're doing really well. It's been a massive step getting to the point you're at now, recognising that it's them not you.

Good luck.

nonono, you have so much more strength than you realise, good luck on saturday. making a stand and changing is going to be your biggest but best achievement for your family.

ie--you and your kids. x

Great stuff NoNoNo. It is hard to cut your parents off, but it's the best thing I ever did. Also, I, like you, get the 'you're really nice' comment all the time, and I respond as you do occasionally; really making an effort to stop that and not put myself down. I do it as a defence thing, and it's hard to stop.

Unload on your councellor, then tell your parents, either by email or phone. They are not conducive to you having a good life, just like my parents. OK, I'm on my own, but my kids love me, and XW says I'm the nicest bloke she knows, and being nice is good for me, it makes me feel good.