Should I ignore my mum's comments to my DS when they make my blood run cold? (long, sorry)

[NoNoNoMYDoIt]

Background - I have 2 DCs (DS 5 and DD 2). I am separated from their father but the children have shared residence with both their father and me.

My parents live 150 miles away so when they come to visit, they always stay.

My relationship with my parents is strained at best. My mother is very controlling and disapproves of me in just about every way imaginable.

This is about the way she is with the kids, tho. She can't cope with their behaviour at all (and their behaviour is far from awful). She rises to every single situation and gets very stressed by them. My father is also very short with them and calls DD 'child', rather than her proper name.

When they come to stay, I find it very stressful, not least because I hear my mum talking to the children, mainly DS at the moment but I can see it starting with DD also, in the same tone that she used with me. When I was growing up, I was always a 'horrid child', 'stupid', 'retarded, 'the worst thing that happened' to her. She 'rued the day I was born', wished she had never had me etc etc. And of course this has left me with woeful self esteem and an inability to form a real bond with another adult.

I am desperate to protect my children from this and go over the top (probably) to make sure they never have anything negative said about them. I still discipline their behaviour, with time-out / warnings and withdrawal of privileges etc. But it is their behaviour which is horrid or naughty, not them, and I am very clear about that.

So when my mum comes and starts saying to my son 'you are a nasty horrid little boy', I want to scream at her. But I don't.

I can't tackle her about this as she has only just started talking to me again after I went to court in the summer over residence of the kids - it didn't go the way she thought was best and she withdrew all contact with me for 4 months after the court ruling. If I try to say anything to her, she will just stop talking to me again, which is fine but then the kids miss out on seeing them altogether. The kids still ask to see their GPs so I know the relationship is important to my kids.

So am I right to just ignore what she says? I end up so stressed when she is here, because every time the kids get over-excited and start to play up, I worry she is going to start saying hateful things to them. As a result, I can't leave them on their own with her and my dad. I have tried to go for a run (for 40 minutes) while they are staying, but when I get home, usually one, and sometimes both, of the children is upstairs in its bedroom screaming because it is in trouble for something and has been sent to bed. My mother has a tendency to scream like a banshee and I cannot bear the thought that she might do this to my kids.

I have read your latest post.. wow you have come so far. I can relate to the feeling of praise being artificial, too. I remember when my daughter was born and people saying, oooh what a beautiful baby and I would look at them wondering why they felt the need to lie. I saw everything through my mother's critical eyes. However, after a LOT of therapy I can see for myself how beautiful and lovely my children are and even that I'm mostly okay myself.
Not meaning to threadjack, just to encourage you... you too can have these wonderful feelings of contentment and pride.
You are on your way there. It may seem as though you are entering another phase of conflict but actually you are disentangling from the conflict. Try to break it down into little steps so you don't get overwhelmed. Start with the birthday party, then the next planned meeting... bit by bit you will gain strength.
I am really impressed by your commitment to your precious children and the strides you have taken to reclaim your life. I really want to encourage you and hear how you get on.

what treadwarily said. With bells on!

But I don't understand why you have to ask his permission to get your children's hair cut. Does he have to ask your permission for every decision he makes about their welfare? That's not supposed to be what shared care is about. Did you have a crap solicitor, or no solicitor? Is that actually what a court order says? (I'm not doubting you but doubting the advice you've received/doubting that this should be the case...)

There is a difference though between the situation with your ex husband and your parents. You have to deal with your ex to some extent until the children are adults. He also has a say in how they are reared so he has some power.

However, with your parents you hold all the cards. They don't have an automatic right to see the grandchildren. You don't need to negotiate anything with them (even if you have done this in the past from habit). You can just lay down the law and refuse to argue any further or negotiate. You can do things like hang up the phone if they get stroppy, walk out on an argument and so on.

You could cut contact for a while and this might help you grow a bit yourself without their bad malign influence, and learn to stand up for yourself a bit more. You could refuse to have contact until they at least apologise for their behaviour, not just the most recent but also past behaviour and agree to change their ways (and if any signs of their old selves returns you could cut them off again. Personally though they sound like they won't change, or change much). If it makes it easier you can put a rough timeline on the no- contact, ao that you don't have to feel it is forever. Though you might find it so liberating you stick with the no-contact.

But if cutting contact if too much too soon right now, I would say don't let them come into your house (just don't answer the door, or whatever you need to do to keep them out. Change the locks if they have a key). Just agree to short meetings in public places, and don't deviate from the agreed plan at their request/pressure. Though as you have pointed out even this is difficult as you can end up in situations where there is pressure to leave them alone with one of the children, so it might be easier to cut contact alltogether for now.

Good luck with it all.

you've come a looooong way, NoNoNo, you really have. but you still have a ways to go yet. i must say i agree with edam and mathanxiety's posts here, your perception is hugely distorted if you managed to explain away your baby puke, cry and piss herself as a result of three minutes spent in your parent's combined company.

imagine, in this society today, just HOW SHOCKED that complete stranger must have been at their behaviour to take a note of the licence plate and ring the police. it must have been really bad. you need to cut all contact with these abusive people, surely you see that?

Just wanted to say I have a very small family. I haven't seen my fathers side of he family for over 22 years - he decided to cut contact due to family issues and that meant I didn't have contact. I am now in touch with my cousin which my dad isn't aware of, but that is because she wasn't even born at the time of the issues and I am an adult now making up my own mind. My mum has cut contact with her brother - again I have no contact with him.
I guess what I want to say is despite having this small (tiny!) family I have grown up surrounded by people who love me. I understand my parents reasons. As a child they told me they had fallen out with relative X but when I was older I could make up my own mind
Children don't need relative x or y - cut contact and if when they are adults they want to see them then they can
My grandparents have all died now and I did have a fantastic relationship with them. But as I have grown up I now know my cousins (mums side) better and I adore spending time with them. The ones I don't see? I don't even think about, they are toxic and I don't need them
I hope you work through this, they have you - and showing how much you love them and want to protect them, they will thank you when they are older

The one thing that stood out for me in my counselling (not for my family issues, but that came up) was my counsellor telling me that it takes a strong & special person to break the abuse cycle, so see what it has done to them & make sure they don't repeat that abuse on their children.

Tell me, how many wastes of spaces do you who are that strong & special...because YOU are. You are breaking the cycle & your children may be the first generation for a long time that grows up not feeling how you feel right now. BUT only of you limit/stop your visits with your mum.

It is obvious to me that you have turned this cycle on it's head & you are stopping it BUT all your hard work is for nothing if your parents continue the cycle. For every step forward you make with this, they are pushing your work a dozen steps back. Don't let your experience count for nothing.

"What would happen if you went ahead and didn't ask for permission?"

Good point. Try it sometimes!

The result: he would harangue you (close your ears, put the phone down), he would have to resort to law. £££££ court's disapproval heh heh heh!

You need to start a diary. 1. make a note of husband's behaviour, time, date etc. Make a paper trail. Make a note of parent's behaviour, bus incidence etc.

Please go back as far as you can. When it is in black and white you can't argue with yourself it isn't real/you are exaggerating/it is your fault.

Two strands of the rope NoNo, but the SAME ROPE.

You need to get some legal advice on what Shared residence means, so yes he does have some decisions on what can be done for the children, what school to go to (within reason) and you moving millions of miles away.

I can tell you now no court in the land would make you ask permission to get your childs hair cut on a day they are with you, or to organise a party (unless it meant changing his nights/allocated time - although I think it's nice if you can jointly organise birthdays), just do it, take your DD for her haircut, let ex kick off and spend the money to be laughed out of court. Do NOT ask his permission for day to day stuff, just do the darn thing let him moan if he even notices afterwards.

....Remind me what your children are actually missing if you have no contact with her again. How dare you not stick up for your children. Do you want them to grow up with the same self-esteem than you?

How can you stand there letting this evil woman talk to your children like that. I am truly disgusted.

Grow some f*cking balls!!

Yeah, that. Poor woman's spent her life being told she's rubbish and useless by her own parents, which is precisely why she now doesn't have the confidence to keep the buggers away from her children. Some stranger telling her the same thing is not only unfair but counter-productive. And then there'll be some other people in her life no doubt going "You're not letting your own mother see her grandchildren? Oh, that's terrible!", again without knowing what the hell they're talking about. No wonder the OP doesn't know what to do for the best.

(For the record, "the best" is never speaking to the abusive parents again. But of course it isn't as easy to do as to type.)

Are you considering putting yourself and your children through the trip to the theme park?

Even if it's for the sake of keeping your ex from trying to take full custody of them you really must not do this.

If you allow your parents access to the children, in light of the shocking incident after they went swimming and the police visit, you will be seen by police and social services as unwilling to protect them from danger.

You should take that visit from the police very seriously. The police took the gross mistreatment of your DD completely seriously, and appropriately so imo. You yourself are confused (and yes, being treated so badly yourself is bound to leave you wondering about everything) about your parents and what constitutes 'normal' treatment of children, but you absolutely need to take the huge hint the police visit gave you, that your parents are far from normal, that the police were convinced that their action was warranted.

You hand has now been forced since your parents are now on the police radar, and you must decide to come down on the side of how society views your parents, whether you are in turmoil about it or not. To choose to allow your parents further access to your children would be seen by the police as a thumbing of your nose at them and at the values regarding the treatment of children that they must uphold. If there is even one call to them as a result of treatment of the children at the theme park, you will be in hot water up to your tonsils.

The bottom line for the police (and SS if they are called in) is your children's safety and welfare. They will not be patient with you about your past. They will look at it purely from the pov of the children.

What your parents did to you was horrible and wrong, and you sound like a wonderful woman and a loving mother. This has got to be so hard for you.

But now that you and your parents have come into the radar of the police you must choose your children over your parents (and the hope of ever hearing what you need to hear from them).

Areyoumad, and others, wrt the permission to have a haircut and other little details of the children's lives -- yes indeed, he would be laughed out of court.

I agree with ABitWobbly -- make a record of everything, what your ex does and what your parents do.

Re the theme park visit- isn'tit supposed to be fun? Does it sound like fun....for anyone? Anyone? Don't do it. Do cooking at home instead!

re the police visit - if they have to revisit you after something your parents have done to your kids, they will consider you complicit in their actions.

If you want your kids to have good grand parents you are going to find an older friend, reliable keyed in relative or some such, to create that environment, because it seens that your parents are not ever going to provide the nuturing you crave for your kids, and for yourself.

A lot of people grow up without grandparent involvement and never miss it.

It isnt ok to accept this rubbish, just because it is offered.

This is a heartbreaking thread. OP I think you are amazing to have overcome your dreadful childhood to the extent that you understand what your children need, and give it to them (with the exception of letting your parents get involved with them). A lot of people can't do that.

Please put distance between them and you. You won't be lonely as you suggest - you will empowered. You may start to like yourself a little more and attact people who will also like you .

again, i agree with mathanxiety. if you watched those child protection programmes on the BBC the other day it was clear that the sws had sympathy for the parents having had shit lives themselves however their job was to step in and act for the child if that cycle was not being broken. and act they did, in every case i think.
that's not to scare you unduly, i should say, because if you can manage to see this as an opportunity rather than a threat it is greatly to your advantage. the fact that a random member of the great (broadly disinterested) british public bothered to phone the police means a huge amount. the fact that the police chased it means a huge amount. these people are backing up your story of how your parents treated you 100%. don't make liars of them because of your own (legitimate but screwed-up) desire to appease your parents.

thanks to all who have taken the time to respond.

mathanxiety - interestingly my parents are not on the police's radar, since they did not take their details at all. they took only mine. obviously, they knew it was not me who committed the abuse, since the description was of an elderly couple. i fully intend to go to the police and give them my parents' details and ask for this to be recorded on file - not least because they have CRB checks done for their voluntary work.

as for the 'permission' thing about the children - actually, it was used in court. and the court ruled that it was perfectly reasonable for a parent to seek permission from the other parent before getting hair cut, getting feet measured etc. if i don't do that, apparently, i am breaching his parental rights. and, of course, i would have no problem informing him that i am doing this and giving him the chance to object to it - if he actually responded. but he doesn't. so i have taken to texting or emailing him and just going ahead and doing it. the problem is when there is a decision which needs to be made - eg a party invite which needs to be responded to, or a form which needs to be signed. then i actually need him to do something, and he won't.

but, to the matter in hand - i have spent the whole day being tormented by image of my 2 yr old daughter, sitting at the bus stop, having wet herself, had her trousers and pants taken off her, her legs and bottomed smacked, screaming her head off, while she was made to sit on a stone and have abuse screamed at her. i cannot get the image out of my head and i have been on the verge of tears all day. i have been reliving the other episodes (2 or 3) i am aware of, where i have left the children with them (never for more than an hour) and come back to one of them screaming in bed. and i am imagining what has happened.

i know i have to stop dwelling on this and start taking action. i have decided that there will be no family trip to the theme park, and my parents will not be coming to stay to go to DD's bday party. i haven't told my parents yet as this will be part of a bigger message that i deliver to them - which i will be working out with my counsellor.

i have an appt on saturday morning to see my counsellor to get help with the formation and delivery of the message. clearly i have to have a conversation with my parents which goes 'what you did was unacceptable and that can never happen again'. what follows from there is to be determined. at the moment i want it to be 'and for that reason i will not be having any contact with you and you will not be seeing the DCs'.

i have been thinking - if i were in my parents' shoes (not that i would EVER do that to a child, but anyhow - theoretically), how would i react? if my daughter phoned me to say the police had been round about how i had treated her children.... the bottom would drop out of my world. i would desperately seek her forgiveness; ask for help; move heaven and earth to repair the bridges and make sure the same thing never happened again...

what did my parents do? my father blamed the person who reported it for being a coward and a busy-body and handed the phone to my mother. my mother said that she would do the same thing again as my daughter is a 'nightmare'. no apology; no concern for the children or for me... they are brutal. the POLICE have been around, and they have no concern about their behaviour at all.

thanks to you all for listening. i am aware that my life has something of soap-operatic qualities. i just long for normality. i have always just longed for a normal mother and a normal life...

NoNo (hugs) You are doing great. You really are. I wish I could give you a hug because everyone deserves a good parent and you are an orphan on that front.

Do you have it written into your decree or a court order to that effect, and is it reciprocal? Because if it not reciprocal (i.e. he has to ask you for permission for various decisions) then it should not stand. If it's not in the decree and if there is no court order then I think you should seek advice about the matter.

If you are getting stonewalled by your exH, and there is an order in place regarding permission, then you can go back to court for a ruling on communication. Quite clearly an arrangement where one parent has to ask the other for permission to do mundane things or sign forms can only work if the other parent is obliged to answer within a certain time frame or be deemed to assent.

Your arrangement is a most unusual one if I may say so except wrt signing of forms. Do you have any provisions for an annual review?

I think you should be compiling a record of transgressions of the word and the spirit of your agreement (whatever it stipulates) with a view to tackling your ex again some time. The situation you describe sounds unworkable, apart altogether from unfair and intolerable.

I am very glad to hear you will be giving your parents' details to the police. The implication of this is that you can't allow them access to your children after you do it.

NoNo you are doing so well! Huge strides. Just keep going forward. Your counsellor will help you nut out the letter. It's a huge, huge step and you are very brave. I am v impressed.

Well done on the progress you have made and are going to make, hope it goes well with the counsellor on Saturday.